From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 1 00:08:14 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:08:14 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7=E3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?o?= ao Regulamento Interno Message-ID: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> --V88s5gaDVPzZ0KCq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ol=E1 a todos. Estava agora a fazer as altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram dis= cutidas na AG mas tenho uma d=FAvida. Com toda a confus=E3o que se gerou =E0 volta = do Artigo Primeiro estou na d=FAvida qual foi a proposta que foi aprovada. Algu=E9m se lembra da redac=E7=E3o do Artigo Primeiro aprovada? Os restante= s eu tenho aqui apontado, s=F3 preciso do primeiro. Um abra=E7o. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --V88s5gaDVPzZ0KCq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8p5bdkNvNeN9nJYcRAjfjAJ47UlaQHlQCmLqKLkIfUaInlEryuwCgpheF gOiUMcynXq9+uWH04juBQc4= =s2dI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --V88s5gaDVPzZ0KCq-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Mon Apr 1 00:15:57 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:15:57 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Alteração ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Penso que foi algo do genero... - Desaparece o ponto 2, passando o ponto 3 a 2. - O ponto 2 (ex. 3) passa a ser:=09 - "A nomea=E7=E3o de s=F3cios honor=E1rios ser=E1 realizada pela Assembl= eia Geral por proposta da direc=E7=E3o em exercicio ou de 1/5 de s=F3cios= ." No entanto ao reler os meus apontamentos, fiquei tambem na duvida, se nao= se teria eliminado o ponto 2 e 3 todo... On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:08:14 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Ol=E1 a todos. >=20 > Estava agora a fazer as altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram= discutidas > na AG mas tenho uma d=FAvida. Com toda a confus=E3o que se gerou =E0 vo= lta do > Artigo Primeiro estou na d=FAvida qual foi a proposta que foi aprovada. >=20 > Algu=E9m se lembra da redac=E7=E3o do Artigo Primeiro aprovada? Os rest= antes eu > tenho aqui apontado, s=F3 preciso do primeiro. >=20 > Um abra=E7o. > --=20 > R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 1 00:41:25 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:41:25 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG Message-ID: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> --jKBxcB1XkHIR0Eqt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ol=E1 a todos, Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha p=E1gina pessoal em: http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ Algumas foram auto-censuradas por falta de qualidade. Em princ=EDpio (algumas) delas estar=E3o dispon=EDveis na p=E1gina da ANSOL= em breve. J=E1 agora, algu=E9m conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para gerar u= ma p=E1gina html com "thumbnails"? Um abra=E7o. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --jKBxcB1XkHIR0Eqt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8p56lkNvNeN9nJYcRAgN0AJ9eGFwYpiPCM8Cme4HqiqI60t153QCePplH dHkRLD1r5L1HQ3J085d9JUo= =A4Xz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jKBxcB1XkHIR0Eqt-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 1 00:45:24 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:45:24 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAltera?= =?iso-8859-1?B?5+Nv?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020331234524.GF25844@queen.null.nil> --HCdXmnRlPgeNBad2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:15:57AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: >=20 > - Desaparece o ponto 2, passando o ponto 3 a 2. > - O ponto 2 (ex. 3) passa a ser:=09 > - "A nomea=E7=E3o de s=F3cios honor=E1rios ser=E1 realizada pela Assembl= eia Geral por proposta da direc=E7=E3o em exercicio ou de 1/5 de s=F3cios." >=20 > No entanto ao reler os meus apontamentos, fiquei tambem na duvida, se nao= se teria eliminado o ponto 2 e 3 todo... O ponto 3 passou a ter a redac=E7=E3o que dizes. A=ED n=E3o tenho d=FAvidas. S=F3 n=E3o tenho a certeza =E9 se o ponto 2 foi eliminado, se ficou como es= tava,=20 ou se foi alterado para: "Aqueles que tenham prestado relevantes servi=E7os =E0 Associa=E7=E3o ou = =E0 comunidade de Sofware Livre, s=E3o eleg=EDveis como S=F3cios Honor=E1rios." --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --HCdXmnRlPgeNBad2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8p5+UkNvNeN9nJYcRAr8wAJwK8a0RyR9JZEdz1lLv8Pupnyf6pwCfeMgD joobdmRl6QpiSByB/frIHII= =dHlX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HCdXmnRlPgeNBad2-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Mon Apr 1 00:50:40 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:50:40 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Alteração ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020331234524.GF25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020331234524.GF25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020401005040.4adffd54.vd@paradigma.co.pt> eliminado :) On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:45:24 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:15:57AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > >=20 > > - Desaparece o ponto 2, passando o ponto 3 a 2. > > - O ponto 2 (ex. 3) passa a ser:=09 > > - "A nomea=E7=E3o de s=F3cios honor=E1rios ser=E1 realizada pela Ass= embleia Geral por proposta da direc=E7=E3o em exercicio ou de 1/5 de s=F3= cios." > >=20 > > No entanto ao reler os meus apontamentos, fiquei tambem na duvida, se= nao se teria eliminado o ponto 2 e 3 todo... >=20 > O ponto 3 passou a ter a redac=E7=E3o que dizes. A=ED n=E3o tenho d=FAv= idas. >=20 > S=F3 n=E3o tenho a certeza =E9 se o ponto 2 foi eliminado, se ficou com= o estava,=20 > ou se foi alterado para: >=20 > "Aqueles que tenham prestado relevantes servi=E7os =E0 Associa=E7=E3o o= u =E0 comunidade > de Sofware Livre, s=E3o eleg=EDveis como S=F3cios Honor=E1rios." >=20 > --=20 > R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From fmaia arroba gmx.net Mon Apr 1 01:00:16 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 01:00:16 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020401010016.401123e1.fmaia@gmx.net> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:41:25 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Olá a todos, > > Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha página pessoal em: > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ Já agora podes por uma legenda nalguma dessas fotografias para quem não esteve em Aveiro ter uma ideia de quem é quem (não te esqueças do cão ;). -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 1 00:06:07 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: 01 Apr 2002 00:06:07 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> --=-6Cwn8rwA5CiE4hLE7sVs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alguns momentos altos destas fotos: JNeves vs resto :) Nao tenho medo a ninguem... quantos sao, quantos sao? :) http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0928.JPG O Joao Fernandes (se nao me engano) quase nao aparece em Foto sem pose artistica :) http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0916.JPG (ao centro) http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0924.JPG (votando) http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0946.JPG http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0947.JPG (yeah man! 1) http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0950.JPG (yeah man! 2) Potencial "socio honorario" (que ate fez participacoes, em que relembro: auf, e auf auf auf em particular) apoiado pela Sandra. http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0952.JPG O mesmo, mas num close-up adequado a um thriller... http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0958.JPG Hugs On Mon, 2002-04-01 at 00:41, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Algumas foram auto-censuradas por falta de qualidade. boo! > Em princ=EDpio (algumas) delas estar=E3o dispon=EDveis na p=E1gina da ANS= OL em breve. > J=E1 agora, algu=E9m conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para gerar= uma > p=E1gina html com "thumbnails"? http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=3Dthumbnail§ion=3Dprojects Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-6Cwn8rwA5CiE4hLE7sVs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8p5Zfo+C50no0+t4RApbrAJ0dO6VjsoAfKZ5AfZ3p1ksrWOVF1wCgxKW6 YV5URoc5Hd78m6SIal3FvjI= =vfJV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-6Cwn8rwA5CiE4hLE7sVs-- From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 1 00:07:56 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: 01 Apr 2002 00:07:56 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAltera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020331234524.GF25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020331234524.GF25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1017616076.29699.49.camel@roque> --=-4pgY7keNeKWv/lzHaRoR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > O ponto 3 passou a ter a redac=E7=E3o que dizes. A=ED n=E3o tenho d=FAvid= as. de certeza? 20% exactos? :) era *pelo menos* 1/5 > S=F3 n=E3o tenho a certeza =E9 se o ponto 2 foi eliminado, se ficou como = estava,=20 > ou se foi alterado para: > "Aqueles que tenham prestado relevantes servi=E7os =E0 Associa=E7=E3o ou = =E0 comunidade > de Sofware Livre, s=E3o eleg=EDveis como S=F3cios Honor=E1rios." Penso que foi mesmo eliminado. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-4pgY7keNeKWv/lzHaRoR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8p5bLo+C50no0+t4RAoVBAJ9+wWl3ddNl4/FToZnlCNgE2sgGOwCePKUd lwNKhxtL/9jYzNfT886+Y0g= =uXUB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-4pgY7keNeKWv/lzHaRoR-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Mon Apr 1 01:21:32 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 01:21:32 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt> A mim parece-me que o polegar do Joao Fernandes nunca saiu do mesmo sitio... Ja agora, os after eights, sumos e bolachas estavam bons. Os parabens ao Jaime por ter levado algo comestivel ;) On 01 Apr 2002 00:06:07 +0100 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Alguns momentos altos destas fotos: > ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From ansol arroba ricmarques.net Mon Apr 1 02:33:53 2002 From: ansol arroba ricmarques.net (Ricardo Dias Marques) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:33:53 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <004701c1d91d$487990d0$b7bb71d4@rfcdm> Boas, Hoje, 1 de Abril de 2002, Rúben Leote Mendes escreveu: > Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha página pessoal em: > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ > [snip] Não é peta, não senhor (apesar de ter sido escrito no dia 1 de Abril): as fotos estão mesmo lá. E são 37! Obrigado ao Rúben por ter registado a ocasião para a posteridade, e parabéns pela "reportagem fotográfica". Abraços, Ricardo Marques From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 1 12:23:53 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:23:53 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque>; from rms@1407.org on Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:06:07AM +0100 References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020401122353.D1234@fe.up.pt> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:06:07AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Alguns momentos altos destas fotos: O Ruben fez uma boa reportagem gr=E1fica. > O Joao Fernandes (se nao me engano) quase nao aparece em Foto sem pose > artistica :) > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0916.JPG (ao centro) > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0924.JPG (votando) > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0946.JPG > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0947.JPG (yeah man! 1) > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0950.JPG (yeah man! 2) Gostei muito que o Jo=E3o tenha descoberto a ANSOL e tenha aderido como s=F3cio. Sendo o s=F3cio mais jovem (16 anos, aluno do 10o ano) d=E1 ao g= rupo um toque de juventude e informalidade muito agrad=E1vel. > Potencial "socio honorario" (que ate fez participacoes, em que relembro= : > auf, e auf auf auf em particular) apoiado pela Sandra. > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/IMG_0952.JPG Agora j=E1 est=E1s a ver porque eliminamos do regulamento interno a parte= que dizia que para ser s=F3cio honor=E1rio era preciso ter prestado servi=E7o= relevante ao software livre? > On Mon, 2002-04-01 at 00:41, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > J=E1 agora, algu=E9m conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para g= erar uma > > p=E1gina html com "thumbnails"? Em Debian (testing) tens: cthumb - A program to generate themable Web picture albums galrey - Command line image gallery generator. It also makes thumbnails. gallery - a web-based photo album written in php curator - Turn directories of images into static web content webmagick - create gallery thumbnails for website Um abra=E7o, Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 1 12:26:24 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:26:24 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt>; from vd@paradigma.co.pt on Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 01:21:32AM +0100 References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020401122624.E1234@fe.up.pt> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 01:21:32AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Ja agora, os after eights, sumos e bolachas estavam bons. > Os parabens ao Jaime por ter levado algo comestivel ;) De nada. Mas os after-eights e metade das bolachas e bebidas foram contribui=E7=E3o do Andr=E9 Esteves. Jaime From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Mon Apr 1 12:34:34 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:34:34 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401122624.E1234@fe.up.pt> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020401122624.E1234@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020401123434.214e69ee.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Acho que tambem dever de ser feito um agradecimento grande ao Andre' Este= ves, pela organizacao do almoco, reserva da sala, (bolachas e bebidas ;) = ) e pelo contributo mostrado durante a ass. geral. A ele tambem os meus parabens pessoais. Um abraco, On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:26:24 +0100 "Jaime E. Villate" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 01:21:32AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Ja agora, os after eights, sumos e bolachas estavam bons. > > Os parabens ao Jaime por ter levado algo comestivel ;) > De nada. Mas os after-eights e metade das bolachas e bebidas foram > contribui=E7=E3o do Andr=E9 Esteves. >=20 > Jaime >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 1 13:54:40 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:54:40 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401123434.214e69ee.vd@paradigma.co.pt>; from vd@paradigma.co.pt on Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:34:34PM +0100 References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020401122624.E1234@fe.up.pt> <20020401123434.214e69ee.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020401135439.D1400@fe.up.pt> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:34:34PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Acho que tambem dever de ser feito um agradecimento grande ao Andre' Es= teves, pela organizacao do almoco, reserva da sala, (bolachas e bebidas ;= ) ) e pelo contributo mostrado durante a ass. geral. >=20 E o que ningu=E9m sabe ainda =E9 que na quarta-feira chegou =E0 sede da A= NSOL uma carta a dizer que para poder usar o audit=F3rio em Aveiro teriamos que pa= gar 250 Euros mais 17% de IVA. S=F3 consegu=ED comunicar isso ao Andr=E9 na quint= a ao meio dia; j=E1 nessa altura os funcion=E1rios p=FAblicos eram dif=EDceis de co= ntactar, mas o Andr=E9 conseguiu falar pessoalmente com o vereador para garantir que n= =E3o nos v=E3o cobrar nada pela utiliza=E7=E3o do audit=F3rio. Quem foi que disse que esta lista estava a ficar como a entrega dos Oscar= es? pois definitivamente o Oscar ao melhor realizador vai para o Andr=E9 :-) Jaime From ansol arroba ricmarques.net Mon Apr 1 14:57:42 2002 From: ansol arroba ricmarques.net (Ricardo Dias Marques) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:57:42 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> <20020401012132.70f24c76.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020401122624.E1234@fe.up.pt> <20020401123434.214e69ee.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020401135439.D1400@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <005d01c1d985$5cf4cf30$b7bb71d4@rfcdm> Boas, Subscrevo inteiramente o elogio feito pelo Vítor Domingos ao André Esteves pela organização do evento (conforme o Vítor referiu: pela marcação e preparação de sala e equipamentos, reservas para o almoço, compra de bolachas e bebidas). Para "ajudar à festa", bastantes reservas para o almoço foram feitas tarde (mesmo a minha, que não foi das últimas, foi enviada já no final da noite de Quarta-Feira) o que, compreensivelmente, dificultou a vida ao André na marcação das reservas para o almoço. E ainda houve esse episódio curioso, relatado agora pelo Jaime Villate, de se ter tentado cobrar pela marcação da sala, o que exigiu que o André, mais uma vez, tivesse de efectuar diligências - desta vez, junto de um vereador - para resolver a situação. O melhor elogio que posso fazer é dizer que estava tudo excelente (o almoço, a sala, os equipamentos - datashow, corrente - as bolachas, as bebidas...) e agradecer ao André por todo o tempo que disponibilizou para a organização. Relativamente à pergunta feita pelo Jaime Villate: > Quem foi que disse que esta lista estava a ficar como a entrega dos Oscares? Acho que estarás a pensar numa frase minha de uma mensagem que escrevi aqui na Mailing List, mas eu *não* disse que a *Lista* estava a ficar como a entrega dos Óscares. O que aconteceu foi que fiz uma série de agradecimentos nessa mensagem e comentei que a *minha mensagem* já se estava a parecer com os Óscares. A mensagem está disponível em: http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-geral/2002-March/001088.html Mas concordo contigo, Jaime: O Óscar da melhor realização vai para o André! :) Abraços, Ricardo Marques From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Mon Apr 1 17:16:17 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:16:17 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Manual de Campanha da Aministia Internacional Message-ID: <20020401161617.GB8929@artenumerica.com> Viva Não me lembro se em tempos dei esta sugestão, mas ocorreu-me novamente hoje: talvez seja interessante (sem falta de respeito pelas diferenças entre as "causas em causa" numa e noutra organização) darmos na ANSOL uma vista de olhos ao Manual de Campanha da Amnistia Internacional, que pode ser obtido on-line em formato PDF (free as in beer excepto por umas fotos cujo copyright não permitiu incluir na versão online), em: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/ACT100021997?opendocument Ainda só espreitei bocaditos do livro, mas mesmo tendo em conta a diferença entre os destinatários e a diferenca entre os riscos que se podem correr em caso de lapsos num e noutro plano, pareceu-me já que algumas sugestões serão valiosas para nós também, quanto às formas mais apropriadas de transmitir mensagens sobre uma mesma causa a destinatários com visões do mundo e interesses pessoais muito variados. Para mim dá certamente jeito, já que por vezes a minha versão de diplomacia é "partir a loiça toda" de cabeça quente :-) e a minha prática de campanhas é praticamente nula. Cumprimentos JM From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Mon Apr 1 17:18:19 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:18:19 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020401161819.GC8929@artenumerica.com> * Ruben Leote Mendes [2002-04-01 00:41 +0000]: > Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha página pessoal em: > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ Por curiosidade: qual foi mesmo o modelo de máquina usada? From joao.csf arroba clix.pt Mon Apr 1 17:37:51 2002 From: joao.csf arroba clix.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:37:51 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento concurso logotipo ansol Message-ID: --------------Boundary-00=_37EWHCHTWLWMSTPJ6Y85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Olá a todos. Já realizei, o regulamento do concurso para o logotipo da ansol o qual ainda falta definir varias coisas, prémios , prazos, formatos de ficheiros , tamanho das imagens etc etc , pelo que peço que me comentassem e corrigissem eventuais erros. Envio em anexo um documento em abiword e um dvi. Estou mesmo mal nas fotos, pensava ter os dentes mais amarelos :P E uma questao, pq os e-mails sao "ilegiveis"???? abraços Joao Fernandes --------------Boundary-00=_37EWHCHTWLWMSTPJ6Y85 Content-Type: text/xml; charset="iso-8859-15"; name="regulamento.abw" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="regulamento.abw" PD94bWwgdmVyc2lvbj0iMS4wIj8+CjxhYml3b3JkIHZlcnNpb249InVubnVtYmVyZWQiICBmaWxl Zm9ybWF0PSIxLjAiPgo8IS0tID09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PSAgLS0+CjwhLS0gVGhpcyBmaWxlIGlzIGFu IEFiaVdvcmQgZG9jdW1lbnQuICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAt LT4KPCEtLSBBYmlXb3JkIGlzIGEgZnJlZSwgT3BlbiBTb3VyY2Ugd29yZCBwcm9jZXNzb3IuICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0tPgo8IS0tIFlvdSBtYXkgb2J0YWluIG1vcmUgaW5mb3Jt YXRpb24gYWJvdXQgQWJpV29yZCBhdCB3d3cuYWJpc291cmNlLmNvbSAgICAgLS0+CjwhLS0gWW91 IHNob3VsZCBub3QgZWRpdCB0aGlzIGZpbGUgYnkgaGFuZC4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg 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Desde já gostaria de dar os parabens, a todas as pessoas que participaram na reunião e principalmente a quem teve a trabalheira de fazer os estatutos e o regulamento (penso que foi o ruben), a quem levou as bolachas sumos e outras coisas, a nova Direcção etc , etc . Recebi agora mesmo os anexos , e reparei que aquilo não correu muito bem, vou por os dois documentos numa pagina que tenha. Agradecia muito que os visualizassem para eu proceder as correcções. vai ser nesta ... esta la um documento de abiword e um dvi no fim da pagina inicial ... desculpem isto foi feito a pressa ... http://planeta.clix.pt/linuxfaq/ P.S- Alguem me recomenda um programa de e-mail facil, rapido e fiavel ... este kmail e uma vergonha! (ou sera culpa minha) ... :P Abraços João Fernandes From fmaia arroba gmx.net Mon Apr 1 20:47:28 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:47:28 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?W0FOU09MLWdlcmFsXVJlYWxpemHn428=?= da AG da ANSOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020401204728.65c3ae35.fmaia@gmx.net> > > P.S- Alguem me recomenda um programa de e-mail facil, rapido e fiavel ... > este kmail e uma vergonha! (ou sera culpa minha) ... :P Recomendo o sylpheed-claws para X e o mutt para consola. -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Mon Apr 1 23:30:44 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:30:44 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:41:25AM +0100 References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020401233043.A3951@nsk.yi.org> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:41:25AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Em princ=EDpio (algumas) delas estar=E3o dispon=EDveis na p=E1gina da A= NSOL em breve. > J=E1 agora, algu=E9m conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para ger= ar uma > p=E1gina html com "thumbnails"? ( echo 'fotos da janta' for i in $(ls *.jpg | grep -v small) do [[ -f small$i ]] || convert -geometry 25%x25% $i small$i echo "

$i
" done echo '' ) > index.html Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From plc arroba netcabo.pt Tue Apr 2 02:08:17 2002 From: plc arroba netcabo.pt (Paulo Lopes de Carvalho) Date: 02 Apr 2002 02:08:17 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Pechincha! Ida e volta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0?= GUADEC - 1 lugar =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dispon=EDvel=2E?= Message-ID: <1017709697.1228.58.camel@a213-22-172-156> http://www.guadec.org Quem quer?! Quem quer?! =DAltima oportunidade!! =09 Alojamento: 66 Euro ( 4 x 16.5 Euro ) (Apartamentos Centro Sevilla - http://www.centrosevilla.com) Gasolina ~30 Euro (~60 Euro / 2 pessoas)=20 =09 66+~30 =3D ~96 Euro Camaradagem e boa disposi=E7=E3o, inclu=EDdas!! A n=E3o perder! Partida: Quarta (03/04) a seguir ao almo=E7o. Chegada: Domingo =E0 tarde. Um abra=E7o Paulo =09 From hnogueira arroba april.org Tue Apr 2 10:39:05 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:39:05 +0200 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <3C9BF4AE001E6F25@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Viva! > Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha p=E1gina pessoal em: > http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ Eina ! Como cresceu a ANSOL :-) Espantoso ! So =E9 pena =E9 nao haver nenhuma foto de ti, Ruben ! Mais alguem tirou f= otografias ? Um abra=E7o a todos (mesmo se agora j=E0 so conhe=E7o poucos ;) ) ;-) Hugo. From Diogo Santos Tue Apr 2 14:20:01 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:20:01 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento concurso logotipo ansol Message-ID: Olá a todos os membros da lista! Em primeiro lugar gostava de dar os meus parabens ao André Esteves, pela exelente organização do evento. João aqui vão as minhas proposta para alterações ao regulamento do concurso: «4. O logotipo deve ser simples e de facil memorização e deverá de algum modo fazer referencia a ANSOL.» Já agora convem que faça alusão ao Software Livre. «8. A escolha do logotipo alem do item criativade e adequação ao tema, se dará visando: 8.1 Legibilidade 8.2 Facilidade em redução/ampliação 8.3 Boa capacidade na reprodução gráfica 8.4 Boa visibilidade em monitores» proponho tambem: 8.5 Facicilidade em ser modificado para adptar às necessidades, usando Software Livre. «12. Os trabalhos deverão ser enviados por correio electronico para o e-mail xpto@ansol.org, contendo os seguintes elementos: Nome Data de Nascimento Morada Número de telefone Profissão» Acho que não precisamos de saber a profissão, mas já dava jeito saber o e-mail Fiquem bem! -- 10Mb na sua caixa de email gratuita no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From hnogueira arroba april.org Tue Apr 2 14:42:17 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:42:17 +0200 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento concurso logotipo ansol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CA58224000724EC@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Jo=E3o aqui v=E3o as minhas proposta para altera=E7=F5es ao regulament= o do > concurso: =AB4. O logotipo deve ser simples e de facil memoriza=E7=E3o = e dever=E1 > de algum modo fazer referencia a ANSOL.=BB > J=E1 agora convem que fa=E7a alus=E3o ao Software Livre. POrque nao, ... mas a ANSOL vai al=E9m do Software Livre... al=E9m do Sof= tware. Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 2 15:25:51 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 15:25:51 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401233043.A3951@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <003401c1da54$badae420$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva pessoal, O código está porreiro mas penso que o sistema de ve e pode ser muito mais. IDS era GPL agora é BSD- http://ids.sourceforge.net/. Acham que pode ser problema? O IDS permite a gestão de albuns de fotografias duma forma simples. Usa templates em "quasí-"xhtml 1.0 ;-) Vejam aqui alguns exemplos do uso do sistema: http://ids.sourceforge.net/examples.html Requerimentos para uso: http://ids.sourceforge.net/documentation/requirements.html 1, Lopo PS: Pena não ter ido. Podem por a ficha de inscrição online para recolha. Formato PDF pelo menos. PS2: Onde está o regulamento do concurso do Logo? PS3: Foi pouca gente. Foi pena ter sido no Sábado antes do Domingo de Páscoa. :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha" To: Sent: Segunda-feira, 1 de Abril de 2002 23:30 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:41:25AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Em princípio (algumas) delas estarão disponíveis na página da ANSOL em breve. > Já agora, alguém conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para gerar uma > página html com "thumbnails"? ( echo 'fotos da janta' for i in $(ls *.jpg | grep -v small) do [[ -f small$i ]] || convert -geometry 25%x25% $i small$i echo "

$i
" done echo '' ) > index.html Cumps -- Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From thecrown arroba softhome.net Tue Apr 2 15:53:52 2002 From: thecrown arroba softhome.net (thecrown@softhome.net) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:53:52 GMT Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401122353.D1234@fe.up.pt> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <1017615967.29699.46.camel@roque> <20020401122353.D1234@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020402145352.2663.qmail@softhome.net> Jaime E. Villate writes: > > > Já agora, alguém conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para gerar uma > > > página html com "thumbnails"? > > Em Debian (testing) tens: > > cthumb - A program to generate themable Web picture albums > galrey - Command line image gallery generator. It also makes thumbnails. > gallery - a web-based photo album written in php > curator - Turn directories of images into static web content > webmagick - create gallery thumbnails for website Há uns tempos fiz um script (sh) que faz isso com ajuda do ImageMagick. From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Tue Apr 2 16:08:14 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:08:14 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRealiza=E7=E3o=20da=20AG=20da?= ANSOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204021508.g32F8Em20346@novalis.fc.up.pt> On Monday 01 April 2002 20:02, Jo=E3o Fernandes wrote: > P.S- Alguem me recomenda um programa de e-mail facil, rapido e fiavel .= .. > este kmail e uma vergonha! (ou sera culpa minha) ... :P Eu uso uma mistura de kmail com mutt. :-) > Abra=E7os > > Jo=E3o Fernandes --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 2 16:15:34 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:15:34 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <006401c1da59$4e1925e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Ainda tens o ZGal (http://zgal.sourceforge.net) Também é Perl e requer o ImageMagik instalado ;-) 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruben Leote Mendes" To: Sent: Segunda-feira, 1 de Abril de 2002 0:41 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG Olá a todos, Coloquei as fotos que tirei durante a AG na minha página pessoal em: http://www.nocturno.org/ruben/ansol-fotos/ Algumas foram auto-censuradas por falta de qualidade. Em princípio (algumas) delas estarão disponíveis na página da ANSOL em breve. Já agora, alguém conhece algum programa (livre obviamente) para gerar uma página html com "thumbnails"? Um abraço. -- Rúben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org From higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:49:17 2002 From: higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk (higuita) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:49:17 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento concurso logotipo ansol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020402164917.55f4f0c8.higuita7@yahoo.co.uk> --=.kr2,JiN0fbbwQK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit oi On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:37:51 +0100, João Fernandes wrote: > Já realizei, o regulamento do concurso para o logotipo da ansol o qual ainda > falta definir varias coisas, prémios , prazos, formatos de ficheiros , > tamanho das imagens etc etc , pelo que peço que me comentassem e corrigissem > eventuais erros. Envio em anexo um documento em abiword e um dvi. julgo que falta a referencia de que o logotipo vencedor tera' de ser cedido a ANSOL, para nao haver problemas de copyright e alteracoes higuita -- "Why must you tell me all your secrets when it's hard enough to love you knowing nothing?" -- Lloyd Cole and the Commotions Caravela.homelinux.net: 4:46pm up 3 days, 10:45, 10 users, load average: 1.10, 1.02, 0.66 --=.kr2,JiN0fbbwQK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAjyp0wUACgkQrv1jazsMcrOsxgCfeEBFaXB44hgOjbSuIFd/Vpuy D7MAniaDoytRWFlOoGS6SnQ+e6u7UaGZ =Bd/T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.kr2,JiN0fbbwQK-- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:59:12 2002 From: higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk (higuita) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:59:12 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Realização da AG da ANSOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020402165912.19505c21.higuita7@yahoo.co.uk> --=.ZfvqpHg4QVSymz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:02:37 +0100, João Fernandes wrote: > P.S- Alguem me recomenda um programa de e-mail facil, rapido e fiavel ... > este kmail e uma vergonha! (ou sera culpa minha) ... :P presumo que estejas a falar de clientes graficos: recommendo o sylpheed (e melhor ainda, a variante claws, de desenvolvimento pois e' muito estavel e com mais capacidades) ele e' leve, rapido, cheio de capacidades, muito estavel e em activo desemvolvimento http://sylpheed.good-day.net ou para o claws http://sylpheed-claws.sourceforge.net/ higuita -- As of next week, passwords will be entered in Morse code. Caravela.homelinux.net: 4:50pm up 3 days, 10:50, 10 users, load average: 0.97, 0.84, 0.65 --=.ZfvqpHg4QVSymz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAjyp1VgACgkQrv1jazsMcrOkwQCgwPth9Qa3/PdMTMHMGTJ/MGN0 bfsAn2jKCRaojrilUnNzWNwm9Q/Kfr8Y =WM8m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.ZfvqpHg4QVSymz-- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Tue Apr 2 17:43:46 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:43:46 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9=20software?= livre! Message-ID: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> Ol=E1 a todos, no pass=E1do s=E1bado falamos que o lyx seria software livre quando a xf= orms=20 passa-se a ser LGPL, pois posso informar-vos que nessa altura j=E1 o era,= eu =E9=20 que ainda n=E3o sabia. :-) Podem encontrar a nova vers=E3o em ftp://ncmir.ucsd.edu/pub/xforms/OpenS= ource/=20 que =E9 a vers=E3o 0.99. Dentro em breve vai ser lan=E7ada a vers=E3o 1.1.6fix5 ligada =E0 nova v= ers=E3o, e=20 al=E9m disso a nova vers=E3o 1.2 j=E1 est=E1 em testes (j=E1 saiu a vers=E3= o 1.2.0pre1,=20 embora n=E3o tenha sido anunciada na lista dos utilizadores, s=F3 o ser=E1= a vers=E3o=20 seguinte 1.2.0pre2). UM abra=E7o, --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Tue Apr 2 18:07:45 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:07:45 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9=20software?= livre! In-Reply-To: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204021707.g32H7kG21649@novalis.fc.up.pt> On Tuesday 02 April 2002 17:43, Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: > Ol=E1 a todos, > no pass=E1do s=E1bado falamos que o lyx seria software livre quando a = xforms > passa-se a ser LGPL, pois posso informar-vos que nessa altura j=E1 o er= a, eu > =E9 que ainda n=E3o sabia. :-) > > Podem encontrar a nova vers=E3o em > ftp://ncmir.ucsd.edu/pub/xforms/OpenSource/ que =E9 a vers=E3o 0.99. Embora n=E3o pare=E7a daqui para baixo eu estou a falar do LyX. :-) > Dentro em breve vai ser lan=E7ada a vers=E3o 1.1.6fix5 ligada =E0 nova= vers=E3o, e > al=E9m disso a nova vers=E3o 1.2 j=E1 est=E1 em testes (j=E1 saiu a ver= s=E3o 1.2.0pre1, > embora n=E3o tenha sido anunciada na lista dos utilizadores, s=F3 o ser= =E1 a > vers=E3o seguinte 1.2.0pre2). > > UM abra=E7o, --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From rui.rodrigues arroba forevernet.pt Tue Apr 2 22:59:41 2002 From: rui.rodrigues arroba forevernet.pt (Rui Rodrigues) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:59:41 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]URLs de patentes Message-ID: <3CAA29CD.7060600@forevernet.pt> mais alguns alguns URLs de patentes de software: http://builder.cnet.com/webbuilding/pages/Programming/FreeDOM/ http://www.openpatents.org/ http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/texinfodoc/eplain_8.html http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/eos/info/computer_ethics/intellectual/law/ http://www.textfiles.com/magazines/LPF/ http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~ctb/anarchy/intelprop.html http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu/~gunther/freedom_toc.html http://www.eff.org/Intellectual_property/ From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 3 00:37:35 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 00:37:35 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]andamento dos dossiers References: Message-ID: <3CAA40BF.50604@europe.com> Viva, Luis Bruno wrote: > Encontrei este artigo atraves de uma lista 'a qual estou subscrito; deixo-o > aqui para que possa ser aproveitado numa futura seccao dedicada a > patentes de software (se alguem achar uma boa ideia criar > sub-seccoes para cada item da pagina ANSOL->Politica) A ideia é essa. Pelo menos quando estiverem prontos os três primeiros dossiers: patentes, eucd e formatos livres. Depois estava a pensar avançar-se para o "utilização do sl na administração pública". -- Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 3 01:02:44 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:02:44 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas da primeira Assembleia Geral References: <20020326010628.GA8153@queen.null.nil> <20020326122557.B23920@fe.up.pt> <20020327012305.GD10793@queen.null.nil> <20020327110401.Q23920@fe.up.pt> <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020328033808.1684e0d4.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020328171038.GA15853@queen.null.nil> <20020331023326.653ef12c.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020331230103.GA25844@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <3CAA46A4.4050509@europe.com> Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Vitor Domingos wrote: >> Acabei agora o primeiro esboco das duas actas referentes 'a nossa >> reuniao. > > Foste rápido. :) Este senhor é de uma qualidade! Na AG não havia nada que eu lhe dissesse que ele não tivesse já pensado. -- Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 3 02:10:56 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 02:10:56 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL=2Dgeral=5DAltera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> Viva, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Penso que foi algo do genero... > > - Desaparece o ponto 2, passando o ponto 3 a 2. - O ponto 2 (ex. 3) > passa a ser: - "A nomeação de sócios honorários será realizada pela > Assembleia Geral por proposta da direcção em exercicio ou de 1/5 de > sócios." > > No entanto ao reler os meus apontamentos, fiquei tambem na duvida, > se nao se teria eliminado o ponto 2 e 3 todo... Não. Desaparece o ponto 2, o 3 passa a 2 com o texto: "A nomeação de sócios honorários será realizada pela Assembleia Geral, sob proposta da direcção em exercício ou de, pelo menos, um quinto dos sócios em pleno gozo dos seus direitos.". -- Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From thecrown arroba softhome.net Wed Apr 3 14:17:30 2002 From: thecrown arroba softhome.net (thecrown@softhome.net) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:17:30 GMT Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9?= software livre! In-Reply-To: <200204021707.g32H7kG21649@novalis.fc.up.pt> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <200204021707.g32H7kG21649@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020403131730.5643.qmail@softhome.net> Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos writes: > On Tuesday 02 April 2002 17:43, Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: > > Olá a todos, > > no passádo sábado falamos que o lyx seria software livre quando a xforms > > passa-se a ser LGPL, pois posso informar-vos que nessa altura já o era, eu > > é que ainda não sabia. :-) > > > > Podem encontrar a nova versão em > > ftp://ncmir.ucsd.edu/pub/xforms/OpenSource/ que é a versão 0.99. > Muito Obrigado caro José :)) Ricardo Martins From rto arroba fe.up.pt Wed Apr 3 21:58:52 2002 From: rto arroba fe.up.pt (Raul Oliveira) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:58:52 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Fwd: Convite a =?iso-8859-1?Q?Manifesta=E7=F5es?= de Interesse - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Prepara=E7=E3o?= do =?iso-8859-1?Q?6=BA?= Programa-Quadro] Message-ID: <3CAB6D0C.F840232B@fe.up.pt> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------658DB07C6D8CA3CFE4BFB549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by tweety.fe.up.pt id XAA00774 Viva Era interessante a ANSOL defender que a UE devia financiar em primeiro lugar projectos baseados em software livre. Para isso talvez seja importante defender, ou mostrar que o facto de ser software livre n=E3o =E9 prejudicial para o interesse comercial que projectos deste tipo possam ter depois de terminados. Quem sabe informar as outras associa=E7=F5es europeias para existir um "lobby" de software livre coordenado. A+ Raul -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Raul Filipe Oliveira Tel at office: 351 22 5081602/1502 FEUP/DEEC Fax at office: 351 22 5081443 Rua de Roberto Frias Email:rto@fe.up.pt 4200 465 Porto Portugal ------------------------------------------------------------------ Why I love LINUX? Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste --------------658DB07C6D8CA3CFE4BFB549 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by tweety.fe.up.pt id XAA00774 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lorosae.fe.up.pt (8.10.1/8.10.1) id g32Go1W20358 for docentes-list; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:50:01 +0100 (WET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: lorosae.fe.up.pt: majordom set sender to owner-= docentes@mail.fe.up.pt using -f Received: from fe.up.pt (A02BF0806.fe.up.pt [192.168.11.137]) by lorosae.fe.up.pt (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g32Go0V16945; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:50:00 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3CA9EE7C.8A9D1144@fe.up.pt> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:46:37 +0000 From: UPF X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: docentes@fe.up.pt Subject: Convite a =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Manifesta=3DE7=3DF5es?=3D de Interess= e -=20 =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Prepara=3DE7=3DE3o?=3D do =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?6=3DBA?=3D P= rograma-Quadro Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"------------A728DD44D10EB54123F0F51B" Sender: owner-docentes@fe.up.pt Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A728DD44D10EB54123F0F51B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3D"------------66D5817104B771FC059FE905" --------------66D5817104B771FC059FE905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Como j=E1 =E9 do conhecimento geral, o pr=F3ximo Programa-Quadro de investiga=E7=E3o e desenvolvimento da UE n=E3o est=E1 completamente defin= ido, encontrando-se ainda em fase de delinea=E7=E3o =96 ser=E1 o 6=BA e cobrir= =E1 o per=EDodo de 2002 a 2006. Neste sentido, a Comiss=E3o Europeia convida os investigadores que esteja= m interessados em apresentar propostas de =93projectos integrados=94 ou de =93redes de excel=EAncia=94 (novos instrumentos do 6PQ) a enviar manifest= a=E7=F5es de interesse sobre as =E1reas de investiga=E7=E3o que desejem ver contemp= ladas no pr=F3ximo Programa-Quadro. Recordamos que esta constitu=ED uma oportunidade =FAnica para a comunidad= e cient=EDfica ajudar a definir a estrutura do 6=BA PQ e para o futuro envolvimento de Portugal em actividades de I&DT da UE, pelo que apelamos =E0 participa=E7=E3o dos investigadores no sentido de verem as =E1reas de investiga=E7=E3o do seu interesse abrangidas pelo pr=F3ximo Programa-Quad= ro. De acordo com informa=E7=F5es da Comiss=E3o, nas =E1reas em que n=E3o hou= ver manifesta=E7=F5es de interesse n=E3o ser=E3o abertos concursos. As manifesta=E7=F5es de interesse dever=E3o ser apresentadas pelas institui=E7=F5es que pretendam formar cons=F3rcios para responder a futur= os convites =E0 apresenta=E7=F5es de propostas no =E2mbito de um projecto in= tegrado ou de uma rede de excel=EAncia. As propostas dever=E3o ser enviadas por correio electr=F3nico at=E9 7 de = Junho de 2002. Internet: http://www.cordis.lu/fp6/eoi-instruments/ A Unidade de Programas de Financiamento --------------66D5817104B771FC059FE905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Como já é do conhecimento geral, o próximo Programa-= Quadro de investigação e desenvolvimento da UE não est&aacu= te; completamente definido, encontrando-se ainda em fase de delineaç&a= tilde;o =96 será o 6º e cobrirá o período de 2002 a 200= 6.
Neste sentido, a Comissão Europeia convida os investigadores que estejam interessados em apresentar propostas de =93projectos integrad= os=94 ou de =93redes de excelência=94 (novos instrumentos do 6PQ) a envia= r manifestações de interesse sobre as áreas de inve= stigação que desejem ver contempladas no próximo Programa-Quadro.

Recordamos que esta constituí uma oportunidade única par= a a comunidade científica ajudar a definir a estrutura do 6º PQ e para o futuro envolvimento de Portugal em actividades de I&DT da UE, pelo que apelamos à participação dos investig= adores no sentido de verem as áreas de investigação do seu interesse abrangidas pelo próximo Programa-Quadro.

De acordo com informações da Comissão, nas &aa= cute;reas em que não houver manifestações de interesse n&atild= e;o serão abertos concursos.

As manifestações de interesse deverão ser apresen= tadas pelas instituições que pretendam formar consórcios para responder a futuros convites à apresentações de propostas no âmbito de um projecto integrado ou de uma rede de excelência.

As propostas deverão ser enviadas por correio electrónic= o até 7 de Junho de 2002.

Internet: http:/= /www.cordis.lu/fp6/eoi-instruments/

A Unidade de Programas de Financiamento --------------66D5817104B771FC059FE905-- --------------A728DD44D10EB54123F0F51B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=3Dus-ascii; name=3D"upf.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for UPF Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"upf.vcf" begin:vcard=20 n:; tel;fax:+ 351 22 5081524 tel;work:+ 351 22 5081410/11 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Servi=E7o de Rela=E7=F5es Externas e Imagem;Faculdade de Engenharia d= a Universidade do Porto version:2.1 email;internet:upf@fe.up.pt title:UPF - Unidade de Programas de Financiamento adr;quoted-printable:;;Rua Dr. Roberto Frias / =3D0D=3D0A Edif= =3DEDcio A=3D3B sala 208;4200-465 Porto;;;Portugal end:vcard --------------A728DD44D10EB54123F0F51B-- --------------658DB07C6D8CA3CFE4BFB549-- From figueira arroba europe.com Thu Apr 4 00:46:42 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: 04 Apr 2002 00:46:42 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Fwd: Convite a =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Manifesta=E7=F5es?= de Interesse - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Prepara=E7=E3o?= do =?ISO-8859-1?Q?6=BA?= Programa-Quadro] In-Reply-To: <3CAB6D0C.F840232B@fe.up.pt> References: <3CAB6D0C.F840232B@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <1017877603.16325.19.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-03 at 21:58, Raul Oliveira wrote: > Era interessante a ANSOL defender que a UE devia financiar em primeiro > lugar projectos baseados em software livre. > Para isso talvez seja importante defender, ou mostrar que o facto de ser > software livre n=E3o =E9 prejudicial para o interesse comercial que > projectos deste tipo possam ter depois de terminados. > Quem sabe informar as outras associa=E7=F5es europeias para existir um > "lobby" de software livre coordenado. "As manifesta=E7=F5es de interesse dever=E3o ser apresentadas pelas institui=E7=F5es que pretendam formar cons=F3rcios para responder a futuros convites =E0 apresenta=E7=F5es de propostas no =E2mbito de um projecto inte= grado ou de uma rede de excel=EAncia." O par=E1grafo =E9 suficientemente buzzword e livremente interpret=E1vel par= a que a ANSOL possa responder legitimamente =E0 proposta? Parece-me que sim. A ANSOL pode formar um cons=F3rcio que responda a futuros convites para apresentar propostas no =E2mbito de um projecto integrado. Ou mesmo de uma "rede de excel=EAncia", seja l=E1 o que isso for. Nesse sentido, proponho que se contactem algumas associa=E7=F5es cong=E9ner= es (APRIL, FSFE, contactos, algu=E9m?) para que juntas possamos elaborar uma manifesta=E7=E3o de interesse conjunta que possa vir a ter uma base de apoi= o o maior poss=EDvel. Eventualmente podemos at=E9 chegar ao abaixo-assinado por milhares de cidad=E3os europeus. N=E3o? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 4 03:57:29 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 03:57:29 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401010016.401123e1.fmaia@gmx.net> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401010016.401123e1.fmaia@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20020404025729.GB30448@queen.null.nil> --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 01:00:16AM +0100, Filipe Maia wrote: >=20 > J=E1 agora podes por uma legenda nalguma dessas fotografias para quem n= =E3o esteve em Aveiro ter uma ideia de quem =E9 quem (n=E3o te esque=E7as d= o c=E3o ;). Vou ver se fa=E7o uma p=E1gina em condi=E7=F5es (sem ser os JPG todos ao mo= lho) e coloco l=E1 os nomes das pessoas.=20 P.S. O c=E3o, que na realidade =E9 uma cadela, chama-se Elektra e =E9 da fa= m=EDlia=20 do Andr=E9 e da Sandra. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8q8EZkNvNeN9nJYcRApzJAKDUQSL+FeSIfdnBPYYpRXkEpD6fxgCgkmb8 kVRZX1SbqDxW8u2DzqdXd4Y= =oEuu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FkmkrVfFsRoUs1wW-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 4 03:57:53 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 03:57:53 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <20020401161819.GC8929@artenumerica.com> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401161819.GC8929@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020404025753.GC30448@queen.null.nil> --dkEUBIird37B8yKS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 05:18:19PM +0100, J M Cerqueira Esteves wrote: >=20 > Por curiosidade: qual foi mesmo o modelo de m=E1quina usada? =C9 uma Canon Powershot G2.=20 Cuidado que o artista percebe pouco de fotografia e a m=E1quina=20 n=E3o faz milagres. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --dkEUBIird37B8yKS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8q8ExkNvNeN9nJYcRAkoHAKCKUebkovgRIrqbwa/SMx2N3ysNHgCcClLL EWqRP2LnP+bhBke2FgGXbgk= =M58N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dkEUBIird37B8yKS-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 4 03:58:04 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 03:58:04 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> Message-ID: <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ol=E1, As altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram votadas na AG j=E1 est= =E3o no CVS. O Rui Seabra sugeriu-me que fosse gerada um MD5 do RI. Entretanto ocorreu-me que podiamos assinar digitalmente com o gpg todos os documentos e actas, al=E9m da respectiva assinatura tradicional. As assinaturas seriam ent=E3o enviadas aqui para a mailing-list e assim em qualquer altura qualquer s=F3cio (ou n=E3o) poderia verificar se a vers=E3o que possui =E9 ou n=E3o o original, bastando para isso ter em seu poder a chave p=FAblica de um dos signat=E1rios do documento em causa (de prefer=EA= ncia verificava todas as assinaturas). O que acham? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8q8E8kNvNeN9nJYcRAmrpAJ46sDqhKO654L628twM4YM7+q5XlwCgmAf3 da5DqUL0GNmiR13nr/ruASc= =KJ+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cHMo6Wbp1wrKhbfi-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 4 03:58:14 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 03:58:14 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?B?6SBz?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?oftware?= livre! In-Reply-To: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020404025814.GE30448@queen.null.nil> --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 05:43:46PM +0100, Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: > no pass=E1do s=E1bado falamos que o lyx seria software livre quando a xf= orms=20 > passa-se a ser LGPL, pois posso informar-vos que nessa altura j=E1 o era,= eu =E9=20 > que ainda n=E3o sabia. :-) Na AG foi anunciado que a ANSOL ser=E1 a anfitri=E3 da pr=F3xima reuni=E3o = dos colaboradores do projecto Lyx. Podes dizer de novo a data para quem n=E3o= =20 esteve presente (e para mim que j=E1 me esqueci :) ? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8q8FGkNvNeN9nJYcRAtn7AJ9x+9fm7YPTQ6ZMdy2I01YotuxndwCgssx8 RjksaauZCSkx8htmrslauUg= =Gxvi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ryJZkp9/svQ58syV-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 4 03:58:26 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 03:58:26 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fotos da AG In-Reply-To: <3C9BF4AE001E6F25@mail.libertysurf.net> References: <20020331234125.GE25844@queen.null.nil> <3C9BF4AE001E6F25@mail.libertysurf.net> Message-ID: <20020404025826.GF30448@queen.null.nil> --Pql/uPZNXIm1JCle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:39:05AM +0200, Hugo Nogueira wrote: >=20 > Eina ! Como cresceu a ANSOL :-) Espantoso ! Ainda tive esperan=E7as que viesses a Portugal na P=E1scoa e que desses l=E1 um pulo. Se n=E3o for antes, encontramo-nos no LSM 2002. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --Pql/uPZNXIm1JCle Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8q8FSkNvNeN9nJYcRAt5KAKCMDnv2UVzrht3qW/Js+i90Y92QSwCgyRLm dyY/pFGQ9K+TdFICG3Ds6ME= =rLy2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Pql/uPZNXIm1JCle-- From figueira arroba europe.com Thu Apr 4 07:31:06 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: 04 Apr 2002 07:31:06 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1017901866.7037.2.camel@jung> Viva, On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > As altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram votadas na AG j=E1 est= =E3o no CVS. Boa! > O Rui Seabra sugeriu-me que fosse gerada um MD5 do RI. Entretanto ocorreu= -me > que podiamos assinar digitalmente com o gpg todos os documentos e actas, > al=E9m da respectiva assinatura tradicional. Porque n=E3o? Uns ficheiros ao lado dos originais n=E3o chateiam ningu=E9m. > As assinaturas seriam ent=E3o enviadas aqui para a mailing-list e assim e= m > qualquer altura qualquer s=F3cio (ou n=E3o) poderia verificar se a vers= =E3o > que possui =E9 ou n=E3o o original, bastando para isso ter em seu poder a > chave p=FAblica de um dos signat=E1rios do documento em causa (de prefer= =EAncia > verificava todas as assinaturas). >=20 > O que acham? Acho que as basta ter no cvs e consequentemente no site. Podiam existir chaves para cada um dos org=E3os e essas caves =E9 que assinavam os documentos em vez de cada um assinar os docs. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Thu Apr 4 08:32:40 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:32:40 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9=20software?= livre! In-Reply-To: <20020404025814.GE30448@queen.null.nil> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <20020404025814.GE30448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> On Thursday 04 April 2002 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Na AG foi anunciado que a ANSOL ser=E1 a anfitri=E3 da pr=F3xima reuni=E3= o dos > colaboradores do projecto Lyx. Podes dizer de novo a data para quem n=E3= o > esteve presente (e para mim que j=E1 me esqueci :) ? De 13 a 18 de Junho. :-) --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From figueira arroba europe.com Thu Apr 4 08:31:40 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: 04 Apr 2002 08:31:40 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites Message-ID: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> "Viva," - diz o duende, quando o seu mestre entra pelo cub=EDculo adentro. - "J=E1 s=E3o horas" - diz o mestre. Espantado, o duende olha para o rel=F3= gio e fingindo-se de assustado, ergue-se e diz em tom alto: - "Vou-me j=E1 deitar!" - e baixando a voz - "...=E9 s=F3 acabar isto." O mestre, que j=E1 o conhecia, franze o sobrolho e retira-se sorrindo levemente. "Pois..." - escapa-lhe. O duende trabalha agora afincadamente na sua =FAltima tarefa do dia, j=E1 tem poucas horas de sono pela frente mas sente a obriga=E7=E3o de terminar = o que come=E7ou. O sua ferramenta preferida que carinhosamente apelidou de emacs, come=E7a a aquecer, ficheiros come=E7am a voar. Ele =E9 cvs commit, = ele =E9 make all... ele =E9 tudo. Passadas umas horas de trabalho - j=E1 o mestre dorme profundamente - est= =E1 terminado o trabalho. Rapidamente faz quest=E3o de o testar e p=F4r na montra. Como bom profissional que =E9, sai, e vai ver do lado de fora. "Arghh!!!! Tem um erro!" - Grita, apressando-se rapidamente para o emacs. Matuta, matuta, matuta... at=E9 que descobre a solu=E7=E3o. Volta a = p=F4r na montra e de novo sai. "Humm... Podia estar melhor" - pensa - "mas agora j=E1 n=E3o posso fazer mais nada"... De caminho para a sua camarata lembra-se de ir =E0 sua caixa de correio. ERRO! Descobre ainda mais umas coisas que tem de fazer antes de finalmente ir descansar. E l=E1 as faz... Assim, escreve uma pequena missiva aos seus colegas duendes para lhes explicar o que alguns deles precisa de fazer. Ruben: cria, sff quando puderes, as ml "direccao", "assembleia", e "conselho.fiscal". Sugiro que o alias "contacto" passe para a direc=E7=E3o, com CCs para a assembleia e conselho fiscal. Jaime, Jo=E3o ou R=FAben: As p=E1ginas do regulamento e do plano de ac=E7= =E3o est=E3o a ser geradas com o menu antigo. N=E3o est=E3o a usar o novo navigation.pt.xsl. S=E3o os =FAnicos, acho. N=E3o cheguei a perceber o que = se passa. Algu=E9m falou nuns eventos pr=F3ximos... o cvs, mais precisamente o eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml espera por v=F3s... :-) Estou com a sensa=E7=E3o que falta alguma coisa, mas olha, grave n=E3o deve ser. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From ernesto arroba ipimar.pt Thu Apr 4 11:01:51 2002 From: ernesto arroba ipimar.pt (Ernesto Jardim) Date: 04 Apr 2002 11:01:51 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= software livre! In-Reply-To: <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <20020404025814.GE30448@queen.null.nil> <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <1017914511.28085.14.camel@gandalf> Bom dia N=E3o estive na AG mas gostava de ter mais informa=E7=E3o desta reuni=E3o d= e colaboradores do projecto LyX. =C9 uma "LyX Developers Meeting" (6=AA) ? Obrigado EJ On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 08:32, Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: > On Thursday 04 April 2002 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > > > Na AG foi anunciado que a ANSOL ser=E1 a anfitri=E3 da pr=F3xima reuni= =E3o dos > > colaboradores do projecto Lyx. Podes dizer de novo a data para quem n= =E3o > > esteve presente (e para mim que j=E1 me esqueci :) ? >=20 > De 13 a 18 de Junho. :-) >=20 > --=20 > Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Thu Apr 4 10:28:56 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:28:56 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9=20software?= livre! In-Reply-To: <1017914511.28085.14.camel@gandalf> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> <1017914511.28085.14.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <200204040928.g349Sve16346@novalis.fc.up.pt> On Thursday 04 April 2002 11:01, Ernesto Jardim wrote: > Bom dia Ol=E1, > N=E3o estive na AG mas gostava de ter mais informa=E7=E3o desta reuni=E3= o de > colaboradores do projecto LyX. =C9 uma "LyX Developers Meeting" (6=AA) = ? Sim, ser=E1 o 6=BA encontro. Temos que arranjar um acr=F3nimo oco mas t= odo catita=20 para o evento, o quarto foi FILM (Fourth International LyX Meeting). Isto= =E9=20 tudo oficioso, =E9 claro, mas tamb=E9m =E9 uma quest=E3o de estilo. ;-) > Obrigado > > EJ --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From aife arroba netvisao.pt Thu Apr 4 18:35:00 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:35:00 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso do =?iso-8859-15?q?chap=E9u=20GNU=20traz=20consequ=EAncias?= sociais... Message-ID: Caros colegas de lista, O uso do chapéu GNU traz consequências sociais: Quando numa multidão, esperem olhares nas vossas costas... No departamento da universidade, professores param e contemplam, seguindo-nos com o seu olhar... distante e calculista (brrr...). Outros sorriem, contentes por haver mais alguém que compartilha as suas esperanças... Algumas reacções: dos invejosos: - O que diz o chapéu? - GNU's not UNIX. - (...) Tens certeza que não é Grande Nabo Urbano? dos ignorantes: - Agora pertences á guarda republicana? dos pobres de espírito: - Qual é a praia que frequentas ? - ( ... ?) Isto é a sigla do sistema de software livre GNU... - (...) - Ah! Eu pensava que queria dizer Grande NU! dos meninos Micosoft: - Que feio! Não tens mesmo gosto nenhum... Se calhar devia ter comprado a camisola... :) Um abraço, André Esteves From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Thu Apr 4 18:45:24 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:45:24 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O =?iso-8859-1?Q?u?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?so_do_chap=E9u_GNU_traz_consequ=EAncias?= sociais... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020404174524.GB16749@artenumerica.com> * André Esteves [2002-04-04 18:35 +0000]: > Caros colegas de lista, > > O uso do chapéu GNU traz consequências sociais: > > Quando numa multidão, esperem olhares nas vossas costas... No > departamento da universidade, professores param e contemplam, > seguindo-nos com o seu olhar... distante e calculista > (brrr...). Outros sorriem, contentes por haver mais alguém que > compartilha as suas esperanças... Há dias procurei um pouco e parece que ele tem as mesmas cores usadas nos bonés do FBI. Agora falta um cartão de identificação vistoso a condizer e um LART apropriado. :-) From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 4 21:20:04 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:20:04 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Algumas notícias interessantes... Message-ID: <003701c1dc16$3d78c240$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Browser Becomes Billboard http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/03/2111248 MikeKD writes "Citing a desire to 'enhance the user experience', [0]United Virtualities is 'preparing to introduce a product [called Ooqa Ooqa] that will allow advertisers to [1]automatically change the appearance of Web browsers, usurping some of the functions built into popular browsers...', according to an MSNBC article--and all this supposedly without downloading any additional software. UV says a lot of sweet things about being able to turn it off and allowing the web sites to customize the degree of intrusion (from reverting to normal form when leaving to retaining the rebrand even after leaving), but does anyone think advertisers will restrain themselves? Not I." Friends don't let friends use browsers susceptible to this. Links 0. http://www.unitedvirtualities.com/ 1. http://www.msnbc.com/news/732865.asp Should Open Source Software Expire? http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/03/1858220 Daffy writes "Jon Lasser at SecurityFocus has an [0]idea for combating the tendancy most sysadmins have to leave old versions of software running long after they're known to have security holes. He proposes implanting time codes into all open source networking and security software that cause it to "expire" like a Blade Runner replicant when it reaches a certain age, forcing an update." Links 0. http://online.securityfocus.com/columnists/72 Elcomsoft Case Proceeds; U.S. Claims Jurisdiction http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/03/1813238 An anonymous reader sent in this Reuters article noting that the [0]Elcomsoft case will go forward. Elcomsoft had asserted that the [1]United States didn't have jurisdiction. This is not really ground-breaking news; Elcomsoft did sell its software to people in the United States and it's not surprising that a U.S. court would claim jurisdiction over this. Elcomsoft is also claiming that enforcement of the DMCA violates the Constitutional right to free speech, and that the part of the DMCA which prohibits distributing devices which circumvent protection measures is so vague that enforcement of it violates the Constitutional right to due process under the Fifth Amendment. (See [2]EFF's archive for more.) One or both of these claims may have a greater chance of success than the jurisdiction claim. Links 0. http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/04/03/copyright.reut/index.html 1. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/05/1249213 2. http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/ BBC interview with RMS http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/03/1547237 An anonymous reader submitted an [0]interview with RMS running over at the BBC. Doesn't really say much of anything that you haven't heard before but it's a nice little interview, and its not like much else is happening today :) Links 0. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1898000/1898803.stm From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 4 21:23:00 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:23:00 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]S. Stallman Message-ID: <003d01c1dc19$13bc86a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> http://www.stallman.org/saintignucius.jpg From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 5 05:04:17 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 05:04:17 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <1017901866.7037.2.camel@jung> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017901866.7037.2.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020405040417.GD1850@queen.null.nil> --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 07:31:06AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: >=20 > > As assinaturas seriam ent=E3o enviadas aqui para a mailing-list e assim= em > > qualquer altura qualquer s=F3cio (ou n=E3o) poderia verificar se a vers= =E3o > > que possui =E9 ou n=E3o o original, bastando para isso ter em seu poder= a > > chave p=FAblica de um dos signat=E1rios do documento em causa (de prefe= r=EAncia > > verificava todas as assinaturas). > >=20 > > O que acham? >=20 > Acho que as basta ter no cvs e consequentemente no site. Podiam existir > chaves para cada um dos org=E3os e essas caves =E9 que assinavam os > documentos em vez de cada um assinar os docs. Se cada =F3rg=E3o tiver uma chave e apenas essa for usada para assinar os documentos, a seguran=E7a =E9 reduzida. Se uma das pessoas que tem a passwo= rd associada =E0 chave de um dado =F3rg=E3o f=F4r mal intencionada, ela pode a= lterar o documento e gerar uma nova assinatura e ningu=E9m d=E1 por nada. Se exist= irem v=E1rias assinaturas, todas essas pessoas teriam de conspirar em conjunto para fazer algo semelhante. N=E3o estou preocupado que este cen=E1rio venha a acontecer, mas se vamos a= ssinar digitalmente os documentos acho que devemos escolher um m=E9todo relativame= nte seguro. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rSJBkNvNeN9nJYcRAnjOAJ95mqxkTK0/6T4ZF69R0e2dZ4ruuwCfWDUU 1B9NEJwrRTgjLRtzgmynPqw= =JLG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 5 07:18:35 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:18:35 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites In-Reply-To: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> References: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> --jITzwD3HDGXid3BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:31:40AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: >=20 > Assim, escreve uma pequena missiva aos seus colegas duendes para lhes > explicar o que alguns deles precisa de fazer. >=20 > Ruben: cria, sff quando puderes, as ml "direccao", "assembleia", e > "conselho.fiscal". Sugiro que o alias "contacto" passe para a direc=E7=E3= o, > com CCs para a assembleia e conselho fiscal. J=E1 criei. Os endere=E7os contacto@ansol.org e orgaos.sociais@ansol.org s=E3o ambos encaminhados para todos os =F3rg=E3os sociais. > Jaime, Jo=E3o ou R=FAben: As p=E1ginas do regulamento e do plano de ac=E7= =E3o > est=E3o a ser geradas com o menu antigo. N=E3o est=E3o a usar o novo > navigation.pt.xsl. S=E3o os =FAnicos, acho. N=E3o cheguei a perceber o qu= e se > passa. N=E3o sei o que fiz, mas acho que j=E1 funciona bem. Caro colega duende Vasco, agora =E9 a minha vez de te colocar umas quest=F5= es. :) Qual =E9 a diferen=E7a entre a sec=E7=E3o "contactos" e a sec=E7=E3o "sobre= "? Para quem encaminho o mail webmaster@ansol.org (esta pergunta =E9 dirijida = aos=20 outros duendes tamb=E9m) ?=20 N=E3o sei se deste por isso, mas colocaste no CVS alguns ficheiros que n=E3o s=E3o suposto estarem l=E1. Na directoria "sobre" colocaste l=E1 ficheiros = .html que s=E3o gerados a partir dos .xhtml e como tal n=E3o devem estar no CVS. Tamb=E9m l=E1 colocaste um index.html que =E9 suposto ser gerado no makefil= e e ser um link simb=F3lico. J=E1 para n=E3o falar de um ficheiro tempor=E1rio = gerado pelo emacs. :) Posso fazer um "rm" na shell n=E3o =E9 verdade? E n=E3o te esque=E7as que temos menores de idade na ANSOL pelo que tens de ter mais cuidado com as mensagens que usas nos "commits" do CVS. Daqui a pouco temos de meter uma bolinha no canto da p=E1gina. 8-) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --jITzwD3HDGXid3BE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rUG6kNvNeN9nJYcRAlnVAKCXC/j8KsFgpw231WTxzmk4Dl8VxQCgp8+q QgixBpgkXAmdvmdtO81gTYk= =LRLM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jITzwD3HDGXid3BE-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 5 07:20:26 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:20:26 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?iso-8859-1?B?6SBz?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?oftware?= livre! In-Reply-To: <200204040928.g349Sve16346@novalis.fc.up.pt> References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> <1017914511.28085.14.camel@gandalf> <200204040928.g349Sve16346@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020405062026.GL1850@queen.null.nil> --vJI8q/aziP9idhqk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:28:56AM +0100, Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: >=20 > Sim, ser=E1 o 6=BA encontro. Temos que arranjar um acr=F3nimo oco mas t= odo catita=20 > para o evento, o quarto foi FILM (Fourth International LyX Meeting).=20 Este deve ter sido o primeiro que se lembraram mas aqui fica de qualquer maneira: "Lyx Six". --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --vJI8q/aziP9idhqk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rUIqkNvNeN9nJYcRAvMCAJ0aODsPNLm95/cZ8E4B04e5KqUSMgCfWeOR el5FJy+btCbMU1jT26vWylc= =1hHJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vJI8q/aziP9idhqk-- From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 5 10:41:18 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:41:18 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> --=-d1HhP/bX3+bSxDHeRCog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > As altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram votadas na AG j=E1 est= =E3o no CVS. > O Rui Seabra sugeriu-me que fosse gerada um MD5 do RI. Entretanto ocorreu= -me > que podiamos assinar digitalmente com o gpg todos os documentos e actas, > al=E9m da respectiva assinatura tradicional. Um md5 (assinado) basta. E que assim garante-se a integridade do documento para quem o copia. O facto de as assinaturas verificarem so garante que esta correcto, e nao que e o que foi aprovado. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-d1HhP/bX3+bSxDHeRCog Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8rXE+o+C50no0+t4RAiSXAKCvWvv7QprY6fDJ6MGc7WlxN4cNwgCggZzD TnSH0Tywikp9/qtLYyMsERk= =E2qj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-d1HhP/bX3+bSxDHeRCog-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 5 15:03:59 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:03:59 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:41:18AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Thu, 2002-04-04 at 03:58, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > As altera=E7=F5es ao Regulamento Interno que foram votadas na AG j=E1 e= st=E3o no CVS. > > O Rui Seabra sugeriu-me que fosse gerada um MD5 do RI. Entretanto ocorr= eu-me > > que podiamos assinar digitalmente com o gpg todos os documentos e actas, > > al=E9m da respectiva assinatura tradicional. >=20 > Um md5 (assinado) basta. > E que assim garante-se a integridade do documento para quem o copia. O > facto de as assinaturas verificarem so garante que esta correcto, e nao > que e o que foi aprovado. N=E3o estou a entender o que ganhamos em assinar um MD5 em vez de assinar directamente o documento. Para assinar: gpg --detach-sign --armor documento.xhtml Para verificar: gpg --verify documento.xhtml.asc Para garantir que o documento assinado =E9 o que foi aprovado temos de, em = posse do documento aprovado, comprovar se as assinaturas est=E3o correctas de mod= o a=20 garantir que n=E3o foram assinadas vers=F5es diferentes do documento aprova= do. No caso do MD5 tamb=E9m tinhamos de ir verificar que este tinha sido gerado utilizando o documento aprovado, e depois verificar que as assinaturas foram feitas ao MD5 correcto. Parece-me que d=E1 mais trabalho para obter o mesmo efeito.=20 Est=E1 a escapar-me alguma coisa? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8ra7PkNvNeN9nJYcRAg7zAJ9FuGKbDnHAN8zjnc/MvKftqoaC0wCfWlty V8SqlxwifBHnrBUD6xUfcmw= =TNfd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- From figueira arroba europe.com Fri Apr 5 15:37:09 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: 05 Apr 2002 15:37:09 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites In-Reply-To: <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> References: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018017430.16218.9.camel@jung> Viva, On Fri, 2002-04-05 at 07:18, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:31:40AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > > Jaime, Jo=E3o ou R=FAben: As p=E1ginas do regulamento e do plano de ac= =E7=E3o > > est=E3o a ser geradas com o menu antigo. N=E3o est=E3o a usar o novo > > navigation.pt.xsl. S=E3o os =FAnicos, acho. N=E3o cheguei a perceber o = que se > > passa. >=20 > N=E3o sei o que fiz, mas acho que j=E1 funciona bem. =D3ptimo! > Caro colega duende Vasco, agora =E9 a minha vez de te colocar umas quest= =F5es. :) >=20 > Qual =E9 a diferen=E7a entre a sec=E7=E3o "contactos" e a sec=E7=E3o "sob= re"? A sec=E7=E3o 'sobre' estava por l=E1, com umas p=E1ginas antigas. Ainda a t= entei apagar, mas novamente n=E3o consegui. Por acaso at=E9 usei o contactos.pt.xhtml que l=E1 estava para fazer o contacto.pt.xhtml da dir 'contacto'. > Para quem encaminho o mail webmaster@ansol.org (esta pergunta =E9 dirijid= a aos=20 > outros duendes tamb=E9m) ?=20 NMO, um conjunto de volunt=E1rios com acesso cvs, ou os =F3rg=E3os sociais. Vou mais pela primeira. > N=E3o sei se deste por isso, mas colocaste no CVS alguns ficheiros que n= =E3o > s=E3o suposto estarem l=E1. Na directoria "sobre" colocaste l=E1 ficheiro= s .html > que s=E3o gerados a partir dos .xhtml e como tal n=E3o devem estar no CVS= . > Tamb=E9m l=E1 colocaste um index.html que =E9 suposto ser gerado no makef= ile e > ser um link simb=F3lico. J=E1 para n=E3o falar de um ficheiro tempor=E1ri= o gerado > pelo emacs. :) Posso fazer um "rm" na shell n=E3o =E9 verdade? Como j=E1 disse, n=E3o fui eu. Podes apag=E1-la =E0 vontade. > E n=E3o te esque=E7as que temos menores de idade na ANSOL pelo que tens d= e > ter mais cuidado com as mensagens que usas nos "commits" do CVS. Daqui > a pouco temos de meter uma bolinha no canto da p=E1gina. 8-) O sono com que eu estava... :-) Foi me**a, n=E3o foi?... Estava irritado com um bug! Ah! Antes que me esque=E7a, aquele que acharem que podem dar uns retoques =E0 coisa, estejam =E0 vontade que de certeza que ter=E3o melhor gosto art=EDstico que eu. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 5 15:47:15 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:47:15 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Album de fotos da APRIL Message-ID: <20020405154715.M1400@fe.up.pt> Para dar algumas ideias ao Ruben, e para quem n=E3o conhe=E7a aos nossos = amigos da APRIL: http://www.april.org/~oberger/1st_avril_2002/index.html Jaime From joao.csf arroba clix.pt Fri Apr 5 16:07:54 2002 From: joao.csf arroba clix.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:07:54 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites In-Reply-To: <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> References: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: Em Sexta, 5 de Abril de 2002 07:18, escreveste: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:31:40AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > > Assim, escreve uma pequena missiva aos seus colegas duendes para lhes > > explicar o que alguns deles precisa de fazer. > > > > Ruben: cria, sff quando puderes, as ml "direccao", "assembleia", e > > "conselho.fiscal". Sugiro que o alias "contacto" passe para a direcção, > > com CCs para a assembleia e conselho fiscal. > > Já criei. Os endereços contacto@ansol.org e orgaos.sociais@ansol.org > são ambos encaminhados para todos os órgãos sociais. > > > Jaime, João (sou eu??? ou há outro joão?????????????????????) ou Rúben: As páginas do regulamento e do plano de acção > > estão a ser geradas com o menu antigo. Não estão a usar o novo > > navigation.pt.xsl. São os únicos, acho. Não cheguei a perceber o que se > > passa. > > Não sei o que fiz, mas acho que já funciona bem. > > Caro colega duende Vasco, agora é a minha vez de te colocar umas questões. > :) > > Qual é a diferença entre a secção "contactos" e a secção "sobre"? > > Para quem encaminho o mail webmaster@ansol.org (esta pergunta é dirijida > aos outros duendes também) ? > > Não sei se deste por isso, mas colocaste no CVS alguns ficheiros que não > são suposto estarem lá. Na directoria "sobre" colocaste lá ficheiros .html > que são gerados a partir dos .xhtml e como tal não devem estar no CVS. > Também lá colocaste um index.html que é suposto ser gerado no makefile e > ser um link simbólico. Já para não falar de um ficheiro temporário gerado > pelo emacs. :) Posso fazer um "rm" na shell não é verdade? > > E não te esqueças que temos menores de idade na ANSOL pelo que tens de > ter mais cuidado com as mensagens que usas nos "commits" do CVS. Daqui > a pouco temos de meter uma bolinha no canto da página. 8-) O que fiz eu???? tou apanhar do ar .... de qualquer maneira .....vou terminar de fazer o meu trabalho .... From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Fri Apr 5 15:48:00 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:48:00 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3o_ao_Regulamento_Interno?= In-Reply-To: <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:03:59PM +0100 References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:03:59PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > N=E3o estou a entender o que ganhamos em assinar um MD5 em vez de assin= ar > directamente o documento. N=E3o h=E1 nada a ganhar. Assinar com PGP uma assinatura MD5 =E9 reaplica= r um algoritmo MD sobre outro, e depois assinar apenas esse, o que se torna redundante... > Para assinar: gpg --detach-sign --armor documento.xhtml (Resultado: hash SHA do documento encryptada com a chave privada; a outra sugest=E3o: hash SHA da hash MD5 encryptada com a chave privada) > Para garantir que o documento assinado =E9 o que foi aprovado temos de,= em posse > do documento aprovado, comprovar se as assinaturas est=E3o correctas de= modo a=20 > garantir que n=E3o foram assinadas vers=F5es diferentes do documento ap= rovado. E as assinaturas ser=E3o de quem? Pessoas ou =F3rg=E3os? Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From joao.csf arroba clix.pt Fri Apr 5 16:08:48 2002 From: joao.csf arroba clix.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:08:48 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Imagemap Message-ID: Olá a todos E que tal criar um imagemap com a foto , que continha quase toda a gente .... uma em tunel :P abraços joão fernandes From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 5 15:56:41 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: 05 Apr 2002 15:56:41 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018018601.25095.4.camel@roque> --=-mgPAzlaWO2vCQcAVNC8a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2002-04-05 at 15:03, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > N=E3o estou a entender o que ganhamos em assinar um MD5 em vez de assinar > directamente o documento. E apenas uma questao de tornar publico o md5/sha1 do documento (em papel, por exemplo). A assinatura apenas verifica que as pessoas que assinaram o documento o reconhecem como sendo o pretendido, e outros que tenham as nossas chaves publicas podem saber que e o documento que pretendemos. Mas e o documento que eles sabem ter sido aprovado? A menos que essas outras pessoas assinem o documento tambem, nao se consegue discernir. Tendo o md5/sha1 sum do documento (num local nao directamente relacionado com a net, por exemplo em acta da AG) e uma questao de o colocar la, para que mais tarde se possa confirmar que nao houve um conluio de um orgao social para alterar o documento. Tambem podes por a assinatura geral do documento 'armored' na acta, mas um md5/sha1 e bastante mais curto. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-mgPAzlaWO2vCQcAVNC8a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8rbspo+C50no0+t4RAgjfAJ9uC1puhxJX98/6ECaf45sjZB6J+QCffLXP y4aKCQ59wmUoilBR+np/JQk= =grOx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-mgPAzlaWO2vCQcAVNC8a-- From sitaar-press-owner arroba yahoogrupos.com.br Fri Apr 5 16:30:57 2002 From: sitaar-press-owner arroba yahoogrupos.com.br (sitaar!COM) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:30:57 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Press Release] O Software Livre nas Empresas - Palestra Pública Message-ID: <00ba01c1dcb7$14023760$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C1DCBF.455BE880 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00B1_01C1DCBF.455BE880" ------=_NextPart_001_00B1_01C1DCBF.455BE880 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_00B2_01C1DCBF.455BE880" ------=_NextPart_002_00B2_01C1DCBF.455BE880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Exmos Srs, Estamos a ajudar a divulgar um evento que julgamos poderá ser do vosso interessse. Com os melhores cumprimentos, Lopo Lencastre de Almeida -- Linux Software & Systems Sitaar - Sistemas de Inovacao Apartado 410 * 2900-901 SETUBAL http://linux.sitaar.com linux@sitaar.com * sales@sitaar.com sitaar - Sistemas de Inovação, Lda. . Apartado 410 . 2900-901 SETÚBAL | | | http://www.sitaar.com . http://www.sitaar.pt . mailto:sitaar@sitaar.com . mailto:linuxsales@sitaar.com ------=_NextPart_002_00B2_01C1DCBF.455BE880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
 
=20

Exmos Srs,
 
Estamos a ajudar a divulgar um evento que julgamos poder=E1 ser = do=20 vosso interessse.
 
Com os melhores cumprimentos,
 

Lopo Lencastre de Almeida
 
--
  Linux Software & Systems
  Sitaar - Sis= temas=20 de Inovacao
  Apartado 410 * 2900-901 SETUBAL
  http://linux.sitaar.com
&nbs= p; linux@sitaar.com  *  <= A=20 href=3D"mailto:sales@sitaar.com">sales@sitaar.com

sitaar -=20 Sistemas de Inova=E7=E3o, Lda. =95 Apartado 410 =95 2900-901=20 SET=DABAL
   |   3DAcronis   |      |   3D"Astaro
http://www.sitaar.com =95 http://www.sitaar.pt =95 mailto:sitaar@sitaar.com =95 mailto:linuxsales@sitaar.com
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23:50:31 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:50:31 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> --n2Pv11Ogg/Ox8ay5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:48:00PM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: > E as assinaturas ser=E3o de quem? Pessoas ou =F3rg=E3os? Como disse num mail anterior, acho que os documentos deviam ser assinados pelas pessoas que constituem o =F3rg=E3o em causa. E at=E9 podem ser assina= dos por terceiros que n=E3o faz mal nenhum e at=E9 me parece ser positivo. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --n2Pv11Ogg/Ox8ay5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rio3kNvNeN9nJYcRAmjnAJ4qDyzJsj3i/NEyEMrFRRH8uNfTSwCeMfPr lP7Wfesgkid9PD4T/iHX+Bk= =VQtA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --n2Pv11Ogg/Ox8ay5-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sat Apr 6 00:17:25 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:17:25 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: Em Sexta, 5 de Abril de 2002 23:46, escreveste: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:41:16PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Assuntos operacionais da associacao, assuntos de socios, assuntos que nao > > sejam gerais e sobretudo assuntos que so' diz respeito aos mesmos. Se me > > disseres que no meio da ansol-geral@ consigamos perceber a posicao dos > > socios... > > Até agora não se colocou esse problema, não só porque não existiam sócios, > mas especialmente porque as decisões têm sido tomadas mais ou menos por > consenso. Em princípio irá continuar assim, mas mesmo supondo que tal não > acontece podemos enveredar por algo tipo referendo, em que os sócios votam > na opção que preferem. Por exemplo, para votar o logotipo, (por falar nisso > alguém devia ler e comentar a proposta de regulamento que o João Fernandes > fez) não me importo nada que não-sócios mandem umas bocas sobre os logos e > sugestões sobre eventuais modificações. Depois quando for para votar é que > só são aceites votos de sócios. > Concordo com o Reuben. Devem-se discutir todos e quaisquer assuntos da associação na mailling-list com a participação de não associados. Se pagamos as cotas é tb para o previlégio / responsabilidade do voto. No entanto as decisões da associação/associados terão em última análise, consequências na vida fora da associação. Porque não detectá-las antes do tempo ? Creio que também devemos acarinhar um sentimento de abertura e vida institucional. E é na participação dedicada na mailling-list, manutenção de uma etiqueta que nos livre de mal-entendidos (de que o meio de comunicação é grasso..), do respeito na ética Hacker da curiosidade dos outros, da qualidade das nossas intervenções que vive a Associação e a mailling List. Se escondermo-nos em listas secretas, não damos oportunidade a outros de aprender com o nosso exemplo, e de se juntarem ás nossas fileiras... Acabaremos por repetir os (sempre repetidos) erros de muitas associações... Juntaram, ao ínicio, talento, iniciativa, esperança... mas não passaram a bandeira a nínguém.. não criaram uma comunidade vibrante que se perpetuou além do seu elitismo... Consequência: Essas associações morrem em explosões ou lentamente por asfixia... É necessário um certo grau de proselitismo e abertura á mudança. Nem que seja pelo exemplo, ou pelo menos, pelo exemplo. E é pela participação de todos numa mailling-list única que tal se alcança. (uff..Uff..) :) Um abraço a todos, André Esteves P.S-> Minhas tarefas: A lista de software livre português estará disponível até domingo, (infelismente muitos autores de software livre não referem as licenças que utilizam... de modo que me fartei, que se queixem depois...) O anúncio do concurso para logotipo é que está atrasado. Tentei o latex, e não me pareceu glamoroso.. Tentei o kword e o kontour, deu-me problemas com o gscript... (espero que a versão 3.0 do KDE resolva isto.. A operacionalidade está por um fio...) De maneira que vou utilzar o Gimp... From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 6 01:48:04 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:48:04 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites In-Reply-To: <1018017430.16218.9.camel@jung> References: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> <1018017430.16218.9.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020406004804.GE4370@queen.null.nil> --2hMgfIw2X+zgXrFs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:37:09PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: >=20 > > N=E3o sei se deste por isso, mas colocaste no CVS alguns ficheiros que = n=E3o > > s=E3o suposto estarem l=E1. Na directoria "sobre" colocaste l=E1 fichei= ros .html > > que s=E3o gerados a partir dos .xhtml e como tal n=E3o devem estar no C= VS. > > Tamb=E9m l=E1 colocaste um index.html que =E9 suposto ser gerado no mak= efile e > > ser um link simb=F3lico. J=E1 para n=E3o falar de um ficheiro tempor=E1= rio gerado > > pelo emacs. :) Posso fazer um "rm" na shell n=E3o =E9 verdade? >=20 > Como j=E1 disse, n=E3o fui eu. Podes apag=E1-la =E0 vontade. O CVS diz que foste tu.=20 Ora v=EA em http://cvs.ansol.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/www/sobre/ J=E1 agora, est=E1s a usar o cvs manualmente ou com algum GUI? > > E n=E3o te esque=E7as que temos menores de idade na ANSOL pelo que tens= de > > ter mais cuidado com as mensagens que usas nos "commits" do CVS. Daqui > > a pouco temos de meter uma bolinha no canto da p=E1gina. 8-) >=20 > O sono com que eu estava... :-) Foi me**a, n=E3o foi?... Estava irritado > com um bug! LOL. Foi isso mesmo. Eu estava a brincar contigo, obviamente. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --2hMgfIw2X+zgXrFs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rkXEkNvNeN9nJYcRAnrsAKCNCHkBBT1V3V0cDU5Dkmwr4KjNuQCbBSFZ pdVKTRM8Qtncvdtm+/49LyM= =kiZe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2hMgfIw2X+zgXrFs-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 6 01:53:32 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:53:32 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]os duendes e os sites In-Reply-To: References: <1017905502.7037.64.camel@jung> <20020405061834.GK1850@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020406005332.GF4370@queen.null.nil> --aZoGpuMECXJckB41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 04:07:54PM +0100, Jo=E3o Fernandes wrote: >=20 > O que fiz eu???? tou apanhar do ar .... de qualquer maneira .....vou term= inar=20 > de fazer o meu trabalho ....=20 N=E3o fizeste nada, podes estar descansado.=20 Podes continuar a apanhar do ar. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --aZoGpuMECXJckB41 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rkcMkNvNeN9nJYcRAgMRAKCig6txKIYF1JnpkdAU9Q9knHVOwQCeJOz9 LXIYol980KJRlSS4GKShqhk= =xXRH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aZoGpuMECXJckB41-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 6 01:55:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:55:01 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Imagemap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020406005501.GG4370@queen.null.nil> --6BvahUXLYAruDZOj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 04:08:48PM +0100, Jo=E3o Fernandes wrote: >=20 > E que tal criar um imagemap com a foto , que continha quase toda a gente= =20 Referes-te =E0 primeira foto?=20 =C9 pena n=E3o estarem l=E1 todos... mas =E9 uma boa ideia fazer o imagemap. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --6BvahUXLYAruDZOj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rkdlkNvNeN9nJYcRAkv0AJ0Sv/v4OZfSnhmBGwhO6lPogMR48ACfdXQb qCpgE8GmGcsr1V7M86mYmRk= =ZPKN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6BvahUXLYAruDZOj-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 6 01:58:14 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:58:14 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]MIcrosoft vs GPL: round 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020406005814.GH4370@queen.null.nil> --cfJ13FhsvNR/yOpm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:11:16PM +0100, Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: >=20 > Isto e' mau! > http://www.gildot.org/article.pl?sid=3D02/04/05/221252 Pelo que li na discuss=E3o na slashdot e no advogato, o principal problema =E9 que a microsoft diz que tem patentes sobre a tecnologia. Mais uma raz=E3o para lutarmos contra as patentes de software. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --cfJ13FhsvNR/yOpm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rkgmkNvNeN9nJYcRArdOAKCVs8GL4clUTwjFhoM8z+x1248OfwCdEq6Z orCOyM4XJkQVBlgnPCkSQyI= =Yba/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cfJ13FhsvNR/yOpm-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sat Apr 6 03:00:48 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:00:48 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Bem,=20 Antes de mais, tu deves de ter algum problema a nivel de teclado, cada ve= z que escreves o nome do ruben.. ou eu muito me engano ou escreves sempre= "reuben" ...=20 :) Passando 'a frente ...=20 On Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:17:25 +0100 Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Concordo com o Reuben. Devem-se discutir todos e quaisquer assuntos da > associa=E7=E3o na mailling-list com a participa=E7=E3o de n=E3o associa= dos. >=20 > Se pagamos as cotas =E9 tb para o previl=E9gio / responsabilidade do vo= to. >=20 > No entanto as decis=F5es da associa=E7=E3o/associados ter=E3o em =FAlti= ma an=E1lise,=20 > consequ=EAncias na vida fora da associa=E7=E3o. Porque n=E3o detect=E1-= las antes do=20 > tempo ? >=20 E' uma opiniao. :) No entanto a minha e' diferente. Pelo menos que exista alguma forma de distinguir os socios dos nao socios= ao acesso 'a informacao / opiniao. Mas ja que tocamos no aspecto das cotas. Como e' que isso esta'?=20 Na AG foi deliberado que elas seriam pagas mais tarde... Esta' algum prazo previsto ? > Creio que tamb=E9m devemos acarinhar um sentimento de abertura e vida=20 > institucional. E =E9 na participa=E7=E3o dedicada na mailling-list, man= uten=E7=E3o de=20 > uma etiqueta que nos livre de mal-entendidos (de que o meio de comunica= =E7=E3o =E9=20 > grasso..), do respeito na =E9tica Hacker da curiosidade dos outros, da=20 > qualidade das nossas interven=E7=F5es que vive a Associa=E7=E3o e a mai= lling List. >=20 Gostei do pormenor da etica hacker e pelo gosto da curiosidade.=20 Sim sr. bom ponto de vista. > P.S-> Minhas tarefas: A lista de software livre portugu=EAs estar=E1 di= spon=EDvel=20 > at=E9 domingo, (infelismente muitos autores de software livre n=E3o ref= erem as=20 > licen=E7as que utilizam... de modo que me fartei, que se queixem depois= ...) O=20 > an=FAncio do concurso para logotipo =E9 que est=E1 atrasado. Tentei o l= atex, e n=E3o=20 > me pareceu glamoroso.. Tentei o kword e o kontour, deu-me problemas com= o=20 > gscript... (espero que a vers=E3o 3.0 do KDE resolva isto.. A operacion= alidade=20 > est=E1 por um fio...) De maneira que vou utilzar o Gimp... >=20 A meu ver, o regulamento do concurso tem la algumas falhas, e penso que f= altam alguns ponto importantes. Espero ter este fim de semana uns comentarios sobre o mesmo. Agora, que problemas tens com o anuncio e o que e' que queres ? Pode ser que se arranja alguma coisa ;)=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sat Apr 6 04:11:18 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:11:18 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: Em Sábado, 6 de Abril de 2002 03:00, escreveste: Em primeiro, lugar quero pedir desculpa, pois postei para a lista por engano.. :( > Bem, > > Antes de mais, tu deves de ter algum problema a nivel de teclado, cada vez > que escreves o nome do ruben.. ou eu muito me engano ou escreves sempre > "reuben" ... > > :) Demasiado inglês, alemão, português na cabeça... isto mistura tudo e ás vezes já não sei como escrever uma palavra... (sobretreinamento das redes neuronais, elas agora sobregeneralizam :) > Passando 'a frente ... > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:17:25 +0100 > > André Esteves wrote: > > Concordo com o Reuben. Devem-se discutir todos e quaisquer assuntos da > > associação na mailling-list com a participação de não associados. > > > > Se pagamos as cotas é tb para o previlégio / responsabilidade do voto. > > > > No entanto as decisões da associação/associados terão em última análise, > > consequências na vida fora da associação. Porque não detectá-las antes do > > tempo ? > > E' uma opiniao. :) > No entanto a minha e' diferente. E respeito-a. > Pelo menos que exista alguma forma de distinguir os socios dos nao socios > ao acesso 'a informacao / opiniao. talvez a ANSOL, possa gerar chaves para os sócios, e que registadas indicam que são sócios. Além disso, pode-se pôr um footer a indicar que é sócio. > Mas ja que tocamos no aspecto das cotas. > > Como e' que isso esta'? > Na AG foi deliberado que elas seriam pagas mais tarde... > Esta' algum prazo previsto ? Não sei, mas também gostava de saber. E por falar em dinheiro... Porque não uma página com o merchandising que vimos na assembleia? > > vou utilzar o Gimp... > > A meu ver, o regulamento do concurso tem la algumas falhas, e penso que > faltam alguns ponto importantes. Espero ter este fim de semana uns > comentarios sobre o mesmo. > Agora, que problemas tens com o anuncio e o que e' que queres ? > Pode ser que se arranja alguma coisa ;) Problemas de execução... :) As ferramentas não se adaptam a mim, tenho que me adaptar ás ferramentas. :) um abraço, André Esteves From tisf arroba netcabo.pt Sat Apr 6 11:44:54 2002 From: tisf arroba netcabo.pt (Telmo =?ISO-8859-1?Q?F=E9lix?=) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 11:44:54 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O Lyx =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= software livre! References: <200204021643.g32Ghkt21271@novalis.fc.up.pt> <200204040732.g347Wev15498@novalis.fc.up.pt> <1017914511.28085.14.camel@gandalf> <200204040928.g349Sve16346@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <3CAED1A6.3050408@netcabo.pt> Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos wrote: > On Thursday 04 April 2002 11:01, Ernesto Jardim wrote: > >>Bom dia >> > > Olá, > > >>Não estive na AG mas gostava de ter mais informação desta reunião de >>colaboradores do projecto LyX. É uma "LyX Developers Meeting" (6ª) ? >> > > Sim, será o 6º encontro. Temos que arranjar um acrónimo oco mas todo catita > para o evento, o quarto foi FILM (Fourth International LyX Meeting). Isto é > tudo oficioso, é claro, mas também é uma questão de estilo. ;-) > Já que é um encontro tb se podia usar algo do género: "There is nothing like a free Lyx" :) Telmo. > >>Obrigado >> >>EJ >> > From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sat Apr 6 13:30:11 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:30:11 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?iso-8859-15?q?portugu=EAs?= Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, Está disponível no site no endereço, a primeira versão do slp - software livre português, a lista de projectos de software livre originados em portugal. Por favor, os vossos comentários/opiniões. slp - Software Livre Português http://www.ansol.org/slp.pt.html Um abraço, André Esteves From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sat Apr 6 13:37:42 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:37:42 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Acta Message-ID: <20020406133742.5b1a8c39.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Como podem ver, ja consta na pagina http://www.ansol.org/docs/acta-ag1.pt.html a acta relativa 'a Ass. Geral. No entanto falta la' o apelido do outro Vitor presente na reuniao.. Se alguem souber e fizer o favor de o colocar, agradecia. Obrigado. ps. Ruben: Para onde e' que vai a acta preliminar ? ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sat Apr 6 17:00:57 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: 06 Apr 2002 17:00:57 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> --=-Q5Guo6212bXJrX29+H+W Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On S=E1b, 2002-04-06 at 13:30, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Est=E1 dispon=EDvel no site no endere=E7o, a primeira vers=E3o do slp - s= oftware=20 > livre portugu=EAs, a lista de projectos de software livre originados em=20 > portugal. >=20 Parab=E9ns. N=E3o sei se a Caixa M=E1gica devia aparecer na lista. A licen= =E7a da distribui=E7=E3o n=E3o =E9 GPL (como em qualquer distribui=E7=E3o existe= m v=E1rias licen=E7as diferentes) e a Caixa M=E1gica inclui software propriet=E1rio qu= e n=E3o pode ser copiado sem ser com o resto da distribui=E7=E3o, como =E9 o = caso do StarOffice. Como me disse o Paulo Trezentos, "se queres uma distribui=E7=E3o de Software Livre usa Debian". --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-Q5Guo6212bXJrX29+H+W Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8rxu5GFkMfesLN9wRAiMVAJwIJpuNkgjhpN5ABOnALnqCSY6wUwCcDBR+ qsxzRP+Q1ArdjrgBs5kCgeM= =8WKO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Q5Guo6212bXJrX29+H+W-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 6 21:27:52 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: 06 Apr 2002 21:27:52 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=E1gina?= com merchandising Message-ID: <1018124872.1652.9.camel@localhost> --=-XeLFWATYpBec2qlwfWP+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 04:11, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > E por falar em dinheiro... Porque n=E3o uma p=E1gina com o merchandising que > vimos na assembleia? A angaria=E7=E3o de fundos est=E1 a ser estudada. H=E1 uns pormenores no qu= e toca =E0 associa=E7=E3o pagar ou n=E3o IVA que carecem de esclarecimento. J=E1 agora aproveito para solicitar manifesta=E7=F5es relativas a=20 isto se estiverem ao corrente dessas mat=E9rias. Cumprimentos a todos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-XeLFWATYpBec2qlwfWP+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8r1pHzPGKuD122fYRAldhAJwOGqIxRF7u7DD6Yi6S4wlmXpPxKQCfUXjS iJLm0Z2w7yGCcDHDfJUn/9c= =4q6I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-XeLFWATYpBec2qlwfWP+-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 6 21:45:58 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:45:58 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3o_ao_?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?Regulamento_Interno?= In-Reply-To: <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:50:31PM +0100 References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:50:31PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:48:00PM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha= wrote: > > E as assinaturas ser=E3o de quem? Pessoas ou =F3rg=E3os? >=20 > Como disse num mail anterior, acho que os documentos deviam ser assinad= os > pelas pessoas que constituem o =F3rg=E3o em causa. E at=E9 podem ser as= sinados > por terceiros que n=E3o faz mal nenhum e at=E9 me parece ser positivo. Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento. --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From webmaster arroba startux.org Sun Apr 7 23:02:21 2002 From: webmaster arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:02:21 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL Message-ID: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> Viva! Era s=F3 para dizer que o link para a mailing list da ASOL s=F3 est=E1 vi= s=EDvel na=20 vers=E3o inglesa do site. Queria perguntar se foram tomadas algumas medidas no sentido de os emails= que=20 est=E3o vis=EDveis publicamente no arquivo da listas n=E3o virem a ser ca= tados=20 pelos spamers. Abra=E7os, M=E1rio Gamito From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 6 22:09:26 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:09:26 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org>; from webmaster@startux.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:02:21PM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020406220926.A7280@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:02:21PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Viva! >=20 > Era s=F3 para dizer que o link para a mailing list da ASOL s=F3 est=E1 = vis=EDvel na=20 > vers=E3o inglesa do site. O link tamb=E9m aparece na vers=E3o portuguesa (encontreio, n=E3o sei em = que s=EDtio se encontra na inglesa), mas o pipermail e o mailman usam apenas = o ingl=EAs, sim. > Queria perguntar se foram tomadas algumas medidas no sentido de os emai= ls que=20 > est=E3o vis=EDveis publicamente no arquivo da listas n=E3o virem a ser = catados=20 > pelos spamers. Aparentemente n=E3o (http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-geral/2002-April/001183.html), por isso podes esperar j=E1 amanh=E3 umas "promo=E7=F5es"... =3D) N=E3o seria m=E1 ideia alterar isso... Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 6 23:03:06 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:03:06 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204072335.22286.webmaster@startux.org>; from webmaster@startux.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:35:22PM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406220926.A7280@nsk.yi.org> <200204072335.22286.webmaster@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020406230306.A7616@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:35:22PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Ois! Ol=E1! > Na vers=E3o portuguesa da p=E1gina n=E3o o encontro !!?? Pois, e notei est=E1 muito diferente da inglesa. Mas chega-se l=E1 por Contact->Discuss=E3o e participa=E7=E3o: listas de correio > Ser=E1 que n=E3o podiam mascarar os endere=E7os de mail do arquivo ? =C9 aconselh=E1vel. (E por isso adiciono um CC: =E0 lista, para que os respons=E1veis participem da discuss=E3o.) > Algo imaginativo. o estilo "xpto (AT) xpto (dot) org" e afins j=E1 s=E3= o > demasiado conhecidos pelos spamers :-) Que tal uma convers=E3o para portugu=EAs? + rot13? ;) mas ter=E1 que ser = pensado algo decente. > Acho que era uma boa medida. Afinal por aqui preserva-se tamb=E9m a > privacidade, certo ? Acredito que sim. > Acho que a ML da ANSOL me merece mais respeito do que a generalidade da= s > outras e por isso queria utilizar nela o meu mail pessoal, mas sem ser > alvo de SPAM. (N=E3o ia deixar *isto* fora do CC: :)) Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sat Apr 6 23:07:20 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: 06 Apr 2002 23:07:20 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> Message-ID: <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> --=-/cogshJtigMsaghp1Ox9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On S=E1b, 2002-04-06 at 17:00, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > Parab=E9ns. N=E3o sei se a Caixa M=E1gica devia aparecer na lista. A lice= n=E7a > da distribui=E7=E3o n=E3o =E9 GPL (como em qualquer distribui=E7=E3o exis= tem v=E1rias > licen=E7as diferentes) e a Caixa M=E1gica inclui software propriet=E1rio = que > n=E3o pode ser copiado sem ser com o resto da distribui=E7=E3o, como =E9 = o caso > do StarOffice. Como me disse o Paulo Trezentos, "se queres uma > distribui=E7=E3o de Software Livre usa Debian". Por algum mail que recebi n=E3o devo ter sido muito esclarecedor. A entrada da Caixa M=E1gica na lista tem 2 problemas: - (menos importante) A licen=E7a devia dizer algo como "v=E1rias" e n=E3o G= PL. - (mais importante) A Caixa M=E1gica inclui software propriet=E1rio que n= =E3o =E9 identificado como tal, nem =E9 feita a distin=E7=E3o entre Software Liv= re e propriet=E1rio. Certos pacotes da Caixa M=E1gica n=E3o podem mesmo ser copiados legalmente fora da distribui=E7=E3o. O =FAltimo problema =E9 a raz=E3o porque acho que a Caixa M=E1gica n=E3o de= via fazer parte da lista, embora Software Livre desenvolvido pela equipa da Caixa M=E1gica (como penso que =E9 o caso do instalador) deva fazer parte d= a lista. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-/cogshJtigMsaghp1Ox9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8r3GYGFkMfesLN9wRAk1GAJ9mmEs7FPXw2ssuGLzFHScxVjAb8gCfcaYq eTuNNPsU/MNn4NE8GjVLn+4= =dlGY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-/cogshJtigMsaghp1Ox9-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sat Apr 6 23:14:34 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:14:34 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:02:21 +0100 M=E1rio Gamito wrote: >=20 > Era s=F3 para dizer que o link para a mailing list da ASOL s=F3 est=E1 = vis=EDvel na=20 > vers=E3o inglesa do site. Estranho... http://www.ansol.org/contacto/ Discuss=E3o e participa=E7=E3o: listas de correio=20 No qual existe um link para la -> http://listas.ansol.org/ ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From gamito arroba startux.org Mon Apr 8 00:25:39 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 00:25:39 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> Viva! > Estranho... > > http://www.ansol.org/contacto/ > > Discuss=E3o e participa=E7=E3o: listas de correio > No qual existe um link para la -> http://listas.ansol.org/ Voil=E1... Mas do ponto de vista da interface... Acho que na vers=E3o inglesa est=E1 bastante mais crystal clear. Vejam isso do SPAM, pode ser ? Abra=E7os, M=E1rio Gamito From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 7 00:04:39 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:04:39 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020407000439.687ec0fd.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 00:25:39 +0100 M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Acho que na vers=E3o inglesa est=E1 bastante mais crystal clear. Isso e' para ingles ver... ;) >=20 > Vejam isso do SPAM, pode ser ? Penso que e' importante retirar o endereco do pipermail do mailman.. Este aspecto esta' directamente relacionado com o reply to. Mailing list Configuration Help reply_goes_to_list Option reply_goes_to_list (general): Where are replies to list messages directed= ? Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists. This option controls what Mailman does to the Reply-To: header in message= s flowing through this mailing list. When set to Poster, no Reply-To: hea= der is added by Mailman, although if one is present in the original messa= ge, it is not stripped. Setting this value to either This list or Explici= t address causes Mailman to insert a specific Reply-To: header in all mes= sages, overriding the header in the original message if necessary (Explic= it address inserts the value of reply_to_address). There are many reasons not to introduce or override the Reply-To: header.= One is that some posters depend on their own Reply-To: settings to conve= y their valid return address. Another is that modifying Reply-To: makes i= t much more difficult to send private replies. See `Reply-To' Munging Con= sidered Harmful for a general discussion of this issue. See Reply-To Mung= ing Considered Useful for a dissenting opinion. Some mailing lists have restricted posting privileges, with a parallel li= st devoted to discussions. Examples are `patches' or `checkin' lists, whe= re software changes are posted by a revision control system, but discussi= on about the changes occurs on a developers mailing list. To support thes= e types of mailing lists, select Explicit address and set the Reply-To: a= ddress below to point to the parallel list. Assim, todos os emails passam a ficar com o ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org Deixamos de poder fazer o reply to directamente para a pessoa que enviou,= mas nos arquivos aparece sempre o email da lista. Nao se pode ter tudo... ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 7 00:18:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:18:02 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Depois de uma leve pesquisa... [root@neon mailman]# grep 'OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS' * -r |more Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py: if mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS: Binary file Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.pyc matches Mailman/Defaults.py: ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = 0 Binary file Mailman/Defaults.pyc matches Ele no HyperArch.py diz: if mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS: self.email = re.sub('@', ' at ', self.email) No Defaults.py diz: # Pipermail archives contain the raw email addresses of the posting authors. # Some view this as a goldmine for spam harvesters. Set this to false to # moderately obscure email addresses, but note that this breaks mailto: URLs # in the archives too. ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = 0 There you go.. (por acaso nao sabia que esta funcionalidade existisse... as coisas que uma pessoa aprende a vasculhar codigo) Para substituir o '@' penso que nada melhor que 'em' ou 'arroba' ;) ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 00:22:34 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:22:34 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407000439.687ec0fd.vd@paradigma.co.pt>; from vd@paradigma.co.pt on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:04:39AM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407000439.687ec0fd.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020407002234.B8901@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:04:39AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Penso que e' importante retirar o endereco do pipermail do mailman.. >=20 > Este aspecto esta' directamente relacionado com o reply to. Errado. Reply-to: *n=E3o* =E9 nem Reply: nem To: nem From: nem CC: nem nada. =C9 uma conveni=EAncia. Ou inconveni=EAncia em muitos casos. E ter o serv= er da mailing list a adulterar esse campo viola os padr=F5es bem estabelecidos. E de qualquer modo n=E3o adiciona nenhuma privacidade. Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From prrt arroba iscte.pt Sun Apr 7 00:27:11 2002 From: prrt arroba iscte.pt (Paulo Trezentos) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:27:11 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?iso-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> Message-ID: <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> Viva! > > do StarOffice. Como me disse o Paulo Trezentos, "se queres uma > > distribui=E7=E3o de Software Livre usa Debian". Estou a ser mal citado. :-)) O que eu disse foi qualquer coisa como: "[... quanto =E0 licen=E7a de software inclu=EDdo na distribui=E7=E3o] n=E3o perseguimos uma filosofia = t=E3o fundamentalista como a Debian, porque existe software n=E3o livre importante para o utilizador rec=E9m-chegado ao Linux." Sei que esta posi=E7=E3o =E9 discutivel e recordo-me de anteriores discus= s=F5es sobre o tema. Principalmente de posi=E7=F5es como a do Jaime... Mas s=E3o formas diferentes de perseguir um objectivo comum: no futuro, ter todo o software necess=E1rio ao utilizador com uma licen=E7a livre. E n=E3o vamos empolar a quest=E3o. Estamos a falar apenas do StarOffice, = que pelas suas caracter=EDsticas pareceu-nos a =FAnica alernativa cred=EDvel = ao MsOffice. A Caixa M=E1gica =E9 uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre... > Por algum mail que recebi n=E3o devo ter sido muito esclarecedor. A > entrada da Caixa M=E1gica na lista tem 2 problemas: >=20 > - (menos importante) A licen=E7a devia dizer algo como "v=E1rias" e n=E3= o GPL. > - (mais importante) A Caixa M=E1gica inclui software propriet=E1rio que= n=E3o > =E9 identificado como tal, nem =E9 feita a distin=E7=E3o entre Software= Livre e > propriet=E1rio. Certos pacotes da Caixa M=E1gica n=E3o podem mesmo ser > copiados legalmente fora da distribui=E7=E3o. Errado. Qualquer pacote que acompanhe a Caixa M=E1gica tem o seu licenciamento indicado em: no pr=F3prio programa (se aplic=E1vel... como no "About") e/= ou na descri=E7=E3o do RPM. A inclus=E3o ou n=E3o da Caixa M=E1gica na lista parece-me uma discuss=E3= o algo fr=EDvola. Estamos provavelmente a falar do projecto de desenvolvimento de software livre, totalmente portugu=EAs, actualmente com maior dimens=E3o.=20 Todo o software e documenta=E7=E3o desenvolvido no seu contexto =E9 GLP. E n=E3o apenas um instalador, como dizia o Neves, mas de: um instalador Newt, um instalador Gtk+, um configurador Newt, scripts de configura=E7=E3= o X em Perl, shell scripts de configura=E7=E3o da liga=E7=E3o =E0 Internet,= motor de configura=E7=E3o, lib de XML, aplica=E7=E3o de actualizacao remota de pa= cotes, manuais, white papers,... tudo num CVS p=FAblico e actualizado na hora. Hum... se choca muito o Neves, que se meta: Software desenvolvido pela Caixa M=E1gica: GLP Sofwtare inclu=EDdo na Caixa M=E1gica: V=E1rios Resto de bom fim-de-semana. From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 7 00:25:49 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:25:49 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407002234.B8901@nsk.yi.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407000439.687ec0fd.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002234.B8901@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407002549.2cf81859.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Afirmativo!! Engano meu. On Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:22:34 +0100 Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:04:39AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Penso que e' importante retirar o endereco do pipermail do mailman.. > >=20 > > Este aspecto esta' directamente relacionado com o reply to. > Errado. >=20 > Reply-to: *n=E3o* =E9 nem Reply: nem To: nem From: nem CC: nem nada. >=20 > =C9 uma conveni=EAncia. Ou inconveni=EAncia em muitos casos. E ter o se= rver da > mailing list a adulterar esse campo viola os padr=F5es bem estabelecido= s. >=20 > E de qualquer modo n=E3o adiciona nenhuma privacidade. ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 00:27:47 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:27:47 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt>; from vd@paradigma.co.pt on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:18:02AM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:18:02AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > # Pipermail archives contain the raw email addresses of the posting aut= hors. > # Some view this as a goldmine for spam harvesters. Set this to false = to ^^^^^ > # moderately obscure email addresses, but note that this breaks mailto:= URLs > # in the archives too. > ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS =3D 0 Ter que dizer que ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS =E9 falso para que essa funcinalidade seja activada =E9 incongruente... > (por acaso nao sabia que esta funcionalidade existisse... as coisas que= uma pessoa aprende a vasculhar codigo) Essa funcionalidade =E9 retro-aplic=E1vel? Como me parece que os arquivos= j=E1 existentes s=E3o est=E1ticos talvez seja necess=E1rio alter=E1-los manual= mente. Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 00:38:33 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:38:33 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5Dslp_-_software_livre_portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt>; from prrt@iscte.pt on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:27:11AM +0100 References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> Message-ID: <20020407003833.D8901@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:27:11AM +0100, Paulo Trezentos wrote: > E n=E3o vamos empolar a quest=E3o. Estamos a falar apenas do StarOffice= , que > pelas suas caracter=EDsticas pareceu-nos a =FAnica alernativa cred=EDve= l ao > MsOffice. A caixa m=E1gica =E9, actualmente, livre e gr=E1tis de ser "downloaded". = O que acontecer=E1 quando o pr=F3ximo StarOffice (n=E3o-livre-ou-gr=E1tis) seja= lan=E7ado? Ser=E1 mantida a vers=E3o antiga, mudada para o OpenOffice, actualizada p= ara a nova vers=E3o, e nesse caso o download ser=E1 apenas a pagantes? > A Caixa M=E1gica =E9 uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre... E software n=E3o-t=E3o-livre, pelos vistos. Mas n=E3o quero aqui discutir= se faz bem ou mal. =20 > A inclus=E3o ou n=E3o da Caixa M=E1gica na lista parece-me uma discuss=E3= o algo > fr=EDvola. > Estamos provavelmente a falar do projecto de desenvolvimento de softwar= e > livre, totalmente portugu=EAs, actualmente com maior dimens=E3o.=20 Ou talvez n=E3o. A Caixa M=E1gica, em si, n=E3o =E9 um produto de softwar= e. O ideal (quanto a mim) seria o software desenvolvido pela equipa da Caixa M=E1gica, disponibilizado sob a GPL (n=E3o conhe=E7o a "GLP", presumo um engano), ganhe um estatuto pr=F3prio, uma exist=EAncia independente, send= o a Caixa M=E1gica ent=E3o um sub-produto (ou co-produto) e n=E3o o contr=E1r= io. > Hum... se choca muito o Neves, que se meta: > Software desenvolvido pela Caixa M=E1gica: GLP (GPL? Ou ser=E1 mesmo Grande Licen=E7a Portuguesa? :)) Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 7 00:39:55 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:39:55 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:27:47 +0100 Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > Ter que dizer que ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS =E9 falso para que essa > funcinalidade seja activada =E9 incongruente... Uma vez mais tens razao. Esta linha coloca-se no mm_cfg.py: ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS =3D 1 Depois e' so' preciso correr de novo o=20 Mailman/bin/arch =20 para ele arquivar de novo os emails. > Essa funcionalidade =E9 retro-aplic=E1vel? Como me parece que os arquiv= os > j=E1 > existentes s=E3o est=E1ticos talvez seja necess=E1rio alter=E1-los > ma= nualmente. Resposta dada acima. ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From prrt arroba iscte.pt Sun Apr 7 01:07:05 2002 From: prrt arroba iscte.pt (Paulo Trezentos) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 01:07:05 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?iso-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> <20020407003833.D8901@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <3CAF8DA8.8BF0F88F@iscte.pt> Viva! > A caixa m=E1gica =E9, actualmente, livre e gr=E1tis de ser "downloaded"= . O que > acontecer=E1 quando o pr=F3ximo StarOffice (n=E3o-livre-ou-gr=E1tis) se= ja lan=E7ado? > Ser=E1 mantida a vers=E3o antiga, mudada para o OpenOffice, actualizada= para a > nova vers=E3o, e nesse caso o download ser=E1 apenas a pagantes? N=E3o...=20 Temos licen=E7a de distribui=E7=E3o do StarOffice 5.2, mas j=E1 fizemos s= aber =E0 Sun que pretendemos vir a distribuir o OpenOffice, logo que uma vers=E3o est=E1vel esteja c=E1 fora. Sintoma disso, =E9 estarmos a contribuir para o OpenOffice. :-)) >=20 > > A Caixa M=E1gica =E9 uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre... > E software n=E3o-t=E3o-livre, pelos vistos. Mas n=E3o quero aqui discut= ir se faz > bem ou mal. :-) =20 > > A inclus=E3o ou n=E3o da Caixa M=E1gica na lista parece-me uma discus= s=E3o algo > > fr=EDvola. > > Estamos provavelmente a falar do projecto de desenvolvimento de softw= are > > livre, totalmente portugu=EAs, actualmente com maior dimens=E3o. > Ou talvez n=E3o. A Caixa M=E1gica, em si, n=E3o =E9 um produto de softw= are. O > ideal (quanto a mim) seria o software desenvolvido pela equipa da Caixa > M=E1gica, disponibilizado sob a GPL (n=E3o conhe=E7o a "GLP", presumo u= m > engano),=20 =C9 GPL. Foi a minha dislexia a actuar sobre o efeito de sonos mal dormidos. ganhe um estatuto pr=F3prio, uma exist=EAncia independente, sendo a > Caixa M=E1gica ent=E3o um sub-produto (ou co-produto) e n=E3o o contr=E1= rio. Para j=E1 =E9 irrelevante. Mas a ideia =E9 essa. Existe o software GPL. Existe a distribui=E7=E3o. >=20 > > Hum... se choca muito o Neves, que se meta: > > Software desenvolvido pela Caixa M=E1gica: GLP > (GPL? Ou ser=E1 mesmo Grande Licen=E7a Portugue= sa? :)) Ah ahah boa ideia. Abra=E7os. From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 7 01:26:25 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:26:25 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Página com merchandising In-Reply-To: <1018124872.1652.9.camel@localhost> References: <1018124872.1652.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20020407012625.49b48e7b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Vamos ver... Capitulo II - Isencoes do codigo do IVA De acordo com o ponto 15 do artigo 9: As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os e as transmiss=F5es de bens com elas cone= xas, efectuadas por pessoas colectivas de direito p=FAblico e organismos = sem finalidade lucrativa, relativas a congressos, col=F3quios, confer=EAn= cias, semin=E1rios, cursos e manifesta=E7=F5es an=E1logas de natureza cie= nt=EDfica, cultural, educativa ou t=E9cnica; O ponto 21: As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os e as transmiss=F5es de bens com elas cone= xas efectuadas no interesse colectivo dos seus associados por organismos = sem finalidade lucrativa, desde que esses organismos prossigam objectivos= de natureza pol=EDtica, sindical, religiosa, humanit=E1ria, filantr=F3pi= ca, recreativa, desportiva, cultural, c=EDvica ou de representa=E7=E3o de= interesses econ=F3micos e a =FAnica contrapresta=E7=E3o seja uma quota f= ixada nos termos dos estatutos; E o ponto 23 - A: As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os fornecidas aos seus membros por grupos au= t=F3nomos de pessoas que exer=E7am uma actividade isenta, desde que tais = servi=E7os sejam directamente necess=E1rios ao exerc=EDcio da actividade = e os grupos se limitem a exigir dos seus membros o reembolso exacto da pa= rte que lhes incumbe nas despesas comuns, desde que, por=E9m, esta isen=E7= =E3o n=E3o seja suscept=EDvel de provocar distor=E7=F5es de concorr=EAnci= a; Por sua vez o artigo 10 do mesmo codigo diz que : Para efeitos de isen=E7=E3o, apenas ser=E3o considerados como organismos = sem finalidade lucrativa os que, simultaneamente: a) Em caso algum distribuam lucros e os seus corpos gerentes n=E3o = tenham, por si ou interposta pessoa, algum interesse directo ou indirecto= nos resultados da explora=E7=E3o; b) Disponham de escritura=E7=E3o que abranja todas as suas activida= des e a ponham =E0 disposi=E7=E3o dos servi=E7os fiscais, designadamente = para comprova=E7=E3o do referido na al=EDnea anterior; c) Pratiquem pre=E7os homologados pelas autoridades p=FAblicas ou, = para as opera=E7=F5es n=E3o suscept=EDveis de homologa=E7=E3o, pre=E7os i= nferiores aos exigidos para an=E1logas opera=E7=F5es pelas empresas comer= ciais sujeitas de imposto; d) N=E3o entrem em concorr=EAncia directa com sujeitos passivos do impost= o. ----- A meu ver tudo aponta, para que associacoes sem fins lucrativos nao tenha= m (e nao possam) declarar (ou levar) IVA nas suas transaccoes. No entanto, uma visita 'a reparticao de financas ajuda bastante ;) ----- On 06 Apr 2002 21:27:52 +0100 Rui Leite wrote: > On Sat, 2002-04-06 at 04:11, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > > E por falar em dinheiro... Porque n=E3o uma p=E1gina com o merchandis= ing > que > > vimos na assembleia? >=20 > A angaria=E7=E3o de fundos est=E1 a ser estudada. H=E1 uns pormenores n= o que > toca =E0 associa=E7=E3o pagar ou n=E3o IVA que carecem de esclareciment= o. > J=E1 agora aproveito para solicitar manifesta=E7=F5es relativas a=20 > isto se estiverem ao corrente dessas mat=E9rias. >=20 > Cumprimentos a todos, > Rui Leite >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Rui M. Leite > >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 7 00:33:21 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: 07 Apr 2002 00:33:21 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> Message-ID: <1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque> --=-JThwtvUJdPEgjnIT/77c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 00:27, Paulo Trezentos wrote: > E n=E3o vamos empolar a quest=E3o. Estamos a falar apenas do StarOffice, = que > pelas suas caracter=EDsticas pareceu-nos a =FAnica alernativa cred=EDvel = ao > MsOffice. Ha varios motivos para fazer crer que o Open/Star Office possa nao existir daqui por poucos anos: * o star office vai deixar de ser gratuito Isto implica que nao vai poder ser redistribuido como ate agora por distribuicoes. Para alem disto, vai passar a haver contabilidade dos custos/proveitos. Se as contas baterem negativamente e a Sun precisar de dinheiro... pode deixar de suportar logisticamente. So o website custa mais de um milhao de dolares (USD) por ano, aparentemente. * Ha muito [mau] codigo em c++, cujos developers originais ja nem sequer participam no projecto * Os comentarios sao muito maus (quando nao inexistentes) e essencialmente em alemao * e muito dificil compilar o open office Ou seja, se nao houver $ a apoiar, nao vai ser facil haver desenvolvimento. Ou seja, suportar o open office para ja pode parecer ser bom, mas e mais importante dirigir os esforcos para os "offices" verdadeiramente livres, porque as possibilidades do Open/Star Office falhar a medio prazo sao muito fortes, e se isso acontecer NAO PODEMOS ter de escalar a montanha do inicio. > A Caixa M=E1gica =E9 uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre... e nao so (parafraseado um certo site de noticias). Por isso, tenho serias reservas quanto a ver de bom grado a CM assumir-se como uma distribuicao de SL quando distribui software nao livre. O ideal era livrar-se do software nao livre. Nao o podendo fazer por motivos estrategicos, penso que pelo menos nao se deveria assumir como distribuicao de software livre. > A inclus=E3o ou n=E3o da Caixa M=E1gica na lista parece-me uma discuss=E3= o algo > fr=EDvola. Se se trata de um indicador de porjectos de software livre portugueses, entao a CM em si nao pode, nestas condicoes, ser incluida. Contudo, software desenvolvido pela equipa da CM que seja livre, faz todo o sentido la ser indicado. > Estamos provavelmente a falar do projecto de desenvolvimento de software > livre, totalmente portugu=EAs, actualmente com maior dimens=E3o.=20 > Todo o software e documenta=E7=E3o desenvolvido no seu contexto =E9 GLP. > E n=E3o apenas um instalador, como dizia o Neves, mas de: um instalador > Newt, um instalador Gtk+, um configurador Newt, scripts de configura=E7= =E3o > X em Perl, shell scripts de configura=E7=E3o da liga=E7=E3o =E0 Internet,= motor de > configura=E7=E3o, lib de XML, aplica=E7=E3o de actualizacao remota de pa= cotes, > manuais, white papers,... tudo num CVS p=FAblico e actualizado na hora. Optimo! > Hum... se choca muito o Neves, que se meta: > Software desenvolvido pela Caixa M=E1gica: GLP > Sofwtare inclu=EDdo na Caixa M=E1gica: V=E1rios Nao e so a ele :) Eu preferiria algo do genero: Software A (desenvolvido pela CM): GPL Software B (""): outra licensa livre Software ... etc. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-JThwtvUJdPEgjnIT/77c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8r4XBo+C50no0+t4RApLhAJ0cq4teGVkkmSx6RHIqbpENm6ZZhwCgmvIS wKeCP9VFDrjI7J/VRckkJHI= =mYI+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-JThwtvUJdPEgjnIT/77c-- From prrt arroba iscte.pt Sun Apr 7 01:51:20 2002 From: prrt arroba iscte.pt (Paulo Trezentos) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 01:51:20 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?iso-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> <1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque> Message-ID: <3CAF9808.A5F8C859@iscte.pt> Viva! > Ha varios motivos para fazer crer que o Open/Star Office possa nao > existir daqui por poucos anos: Isso =E9 uma outra quest=E3o. Mas se um dos objectivos =E9 a conquista do desktop =E9 essencial uma boa suite. > Ou seja, suportar o open office para ja pode parecer ser bom, mas e mai= s > importante dirigir os esforcos para os "offices" verdadeiramente livres= , > porque as possibilidades do Open/Star Office falhar a medio prazo sao > muito fortes, e se isso acontecer NAO PODEMOS ter de escalar a montanha > do inicio. Concordo quanto ao apoio de projectos office verdadeiramente livres. Mas at=E9 eles estarem verdadeiramente utilizaveis, o utilizador dever=E1 escolher o que lhe apresentar melhores caracter=EDsticas. Se o escolhido for o OpenOffice, n=E3o me choca utiliza-lo. Choca-me e' ter de mudar de SO para trabalhar num documento do Office :-) > Por isso, tenho serias reservas quanto a ver de bom grado a CM > assumir-se como uma distribuicao de SL quando distribui software nao > livre. Ent=E3o reformulo: "A Caixa M=E1gica =E9 uma distribui=E7=E3o de Linux, em que todo o softwa= re e manuais desenvolvidos no seu =E2mbito s=E3o GPL". =20 > O ideal era livrar-se do software nao livre. Nao o podendo fazer por > motivos estrategicos, penso que pelo menos nao se deveria assumir como > distribuicao de software livre. Concordo em toda a linha. Tamb=E9m prefiria incluir so' software livre. > Se se trata de um indicador de porjectos de software livre portugueses, > entao a CM em si nao pode, nestas condicoes, ser incluida. Tudo bem. Eu durmo de consci=EAncia tranquila (por ter contribuido para o software livre), mesmo que na "secretaria" embirrem com o estatuto da CM :-))=20 > > Hum... se choca muito o Neves, que se meta: > > Software desenvolvido pela Caixa M=E1gica: GLP > > Sofwtare inclu=EDdo na Caixa M=E1gica: V=E1rios >=20 > Nao e so a ele :) Eu preferiria algo do genero: > Software A (desenvolvido pela CM): GPL > Software B (""): outra licensa livre > Software ... etc. Parece-me perfeitamente aceit=E1vel. Um abra=E7o. From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 01:52:49 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:52:49 +0100 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5Dslp_-_software_livre_portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque>; from rms@1407.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:33:21AM +0100 References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> <1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020407015249.A9822@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:33:21AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Ha varios motivos para fazer crer que o Open/Star Office possa nao > existir daqui por poucos anos: > * o star office vai deixar de ser gratuito > Isto implica que nao vai poder ser redistribuido como ate agora por > distribuicoes. > Para alem disto, vai passar a haver contabilidade dos > custos/proveitos. Se as contas baterem negativamente e a Sun > precisar de dinheiro... pode deixar de suportar logisticamente. > So o website custa mais de um milhao de dolares (USD) por ano, > aparentemente. Bem, nesse caso, disponibilizar o StarOffice por $$$ n=E3o trar=E1 mais preju=EDzos fiscais. Continuar a disponibiliz=E1-lo gratuitamente tornari= a mais prov=E1vel o seu t=E9rmino. Tamb=E9m, como vai deixar de ser gratuit= o o webiste ter=E1 uma menor carga. :) > * Ha muito [mau] codigo em c++, cujos developers originais ja nem > sequer participam no projecto Nesse caso, ainda bem que deixaram de participar. ;) > * Os comentarios sao muito maus (quando nao inexistentes) e > essencialmente em alemao Isso =E9 mau para o desenvolvimento independente do projecto. Mas se pess= oas h=E1 que implementaram bibliotecas para ler ficheiros no formato Word, apenas por desassemblagem, neste caso n=E3o =E9 preciso ir t=E3o longe. > * e muito dificil compilar o open office Isso =E9 problema maior para os packagers, como =E9 o teu caso. ;) Os com= uns mortais usam os pacotes compilados. Os incomuns mortais fazem um cvs up ; make. > Ou seja, se nao houver $ a apoiar, nao vai ser facil haver > desenvolvimento. O mesmo se passa com os outros '"offices" verdadeiramente livres'. A Sun vai obter maiores recursos por vender o StarOffice. Um problema que vejo = =E9 a Sun considerar o OpenOffice um concorrente directo e decidir terminar o seu suporte. Mas duvido que tal aconte=E7a, pois a grande parte das pesso= as ir=E1 preferir comprar o StarOffice, que dever=E1 ter um pre=E7o simb=F3l= ico quando comparado com o principal rival, pois ser=E1 de uma companhia reconhecida (e n=E3o de um bando de "hackers"), e ter=E1 o suporte necess= =E1rio aos lusers. > Ou seja, suportar o open office para ja pode parecer ser bom, mas e mai= s > importante dirigir os esforcos para os "offices" verdadeiramente livres= , > porque as possibilidades do Open/Star Office falhar a medio prazo sao > muito fortes, e se isso acontecer NAO PODEMOS ter de escalar a montanha > do inicio. Pessoalmente prefiro esses "offices" verdadeiramente livres, e por isso, se tivesse algum tempo dispon=EDvel, preferia gast=E1-lo com esses projec= tos do que com o OpenOffice. Mas tenho as minhas d=FAvidas de que o OpenOffic= e esteja condenado. > O ideal era livrar-se do software nao livre. Nao o podendo fazer por > motivos estrategicos, penso que pelo menos nao se deveria assumir como > distribuicao de software livre. N=E3o tenho ouvido ou lido os respons=E1veis da Caixa M=E1gica a propagan= dear essa ser uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre mas antes uma distribui=E7= =E3o de linux ("Linux Caixa M=E1gica"). Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 06:30:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:30:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:00:48AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Mas ja que tocamos no aspecto das cotas. > Como e' que isso esta'?=20 > Na AG foi deliberado que elas seriam pagas mais tarde... > Esta' algum prazo previsto ? Tanto quanto eu sei, est=E1-se =E0 espera da inscri=E7=E3o da ANSOL nas fin= an=E7as. Sr. Tesoureiro, quer esclarecer-nos por favor? :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r8rtkNvNeN9nJYcRAlv0AJ4+bf8OvLMDZ5c+jPATUjMM4cHR9ACfWtea cL89KfE10XoRHFnhm7jO76o= =VYim -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 06:36:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:36:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Acta In-Reply-To: <20020406133742.5b1a8c39.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020406133742.5b1a8c39.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020407043435.GC4731@queen.null.nil> --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 01:37:42PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Como podem ver, ja consta na pagina=20 > http://www.ansol.org/docs/acta-ag1.pt.html >=20 > a acta relativa 'a Ass. Geral. > No entanto falta la' o apelido do outro Vitor presente na reuniao.. > Se alguem souber e fizer o favor de o colocar, agradecia. >=20 > ps. > Ruben: Para onde e' que vai a acta preliminar ? A acta a que deste o nome de preliminar (n=E3o gosto muito desse nome) est= =E1 em http://www.ansol.org/docs/acta-ag1-pre.pt.html Algu=E9m (acho que at=E9 foste tu) sugeriu criar uma p=E1gina s=F3 para as Assembleias Gerais, onde se colocaria todas as actas e documentos discutidos e aprovados. Acho que seria uma boa ideia. Assim, o link que est=E1 na p=E1gina principal e que aponta para a acta passava a apontar para esta p=E1gina nova. O que acham? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r8xbkNvNeN9nJYcRAkB7AKCTebUbYSJEqUJuns/rri18F3DINACglsUm eN4hmUuDm8DSlFnD5437rcw= =rXLH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 06:40:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:40:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> --c3bfwLpm8qysLVxt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 09:45:58PM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:50:31PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > >=20 > > Como disse num mail anterior, acho que os documentos deviam ser assinad= os > > pelas pessoas que constituem o =F3rg=E3o em causa. E at=E9 podem ser as= sinados > > por terceiros que n=E3o faz mal nenhum e at=E9 me parece ser positivo. >=20 > Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento. O que garante a validade legal dos documentos s=E3o as assinaturas=20 tradicionais no papel. A (minha) ideia das assinaturas digitais n=E3o =E9 tanto para a validade le= gal,=20 mas sim para dar a hip=F3tese das pessoas verificarem a autenticidade do=20 documento sem terem de se deslocar =E0 sede da associa=E7=E3o para consulta= r as=20 actas em papel. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --c3bfwLpm8qysLVxt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r81rkNvNeN9nJYcRAlecAKDP9hrypKAFNUCILU2/IeH9QAIBKQCfYfKC wuKYy1C+fyYqNCQrPjHG75Q= =TUeW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --c3bfwLpm8qysLVxt-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 06:47:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:47:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil> --bajzpZikUji1w+G9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:39:55AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: >=20 > Esta linha coloca-se no mm_cfg.py: > ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS =3D 1 >=20 > Depois e' so' preciso correr de novo o=20 > Mailman/bin/arch =20 > para ele arquivar de novo os emails. J=E1 segui esses passos. Agora os endere=E7os aparecem como: ruben at nocturno.org N=E3o =E9 perfeito mas j=E1 =E9 um princ=EDpio. Acho que para mudar para ou= tra coisa qualquer ter=E1 de se ir editar o c=F3digo =E0 m=E3o, coisa que eu quero ev= itar pois no pr=F3ximo "apt-get install mailman" que fizer vou-me esquecer de voltar a fazer as altera=E7=F5es (al=E9m de que me vai dar mais trabalho :). Cuidado que ele n=E3o altera emails que apare=E7am no corpo da mensagem, assim se tiverem o vosso email em rodap=E9 (como eu tenho) ele vai aparecer mesmo como os spammers gostam. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --bajzpZikUji1w+G9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r879kNvNeN9nJYcRAvwvAJwMQIRZGZUV7Q5on1bFxLjIrbIBEACbBw0x 3Bqbic61j16bMjQZIRQrrrg= =kJkG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bajzpZikUji1w+G9-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 06:47:03 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:47:03 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5D_Altera=E7=E3o_ao_Regulamento_Interno?= In-Reply-To: <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:39:07AM +0100 References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:39:07AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento. >=20 > O que garante a validade legal dos documentos s=E3o as assinaturas=20 > tradicionais no papel. >=20 > A (minha) ideia das assinaturas digitais n=E3o =E9 tanto para a validad= e legal,=20 > mas sim para dar a hip=F3tese das pessoas verificarem a autenticidade d= o=20 > documento sem terem de se deslocar =E0 sede da associa=E7=E3o para cons= ultar as=20 > actas em papel. Era dessa "autenticidade" de que falava. Poucos se dar=E3o ao trabalho de procurar as actas em papel f=EDsico quando este se encontra dispon=EDvel = no site. E assim, conforme as assinaturas necess=E1rias na acta, tamb=E9m es= se documento deveria ter as mesmas assinaturas (mas digitais), ou uma apenas em que para ser aplicada obrigasse =E0 participa=E7=E3o de todos os assin= antes. Claro, estou apenas a ser paran=F3ico. Cumps Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 06:53:02 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:53:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:45:49AM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407054820.A13950@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:45:49AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Cuidado que ele n=E3o altera emails que apare=E7am no corpo da mensagem= , > assim se tiverem o vosso email em rodap=E9 (como eu tenho) ele vai apar= ecer > mesmo como os spammers gostam. Estou a ver que vais mesmo ter que mexer no c=F3digo. :) Se bem que para mim isso =E9 um bug, pois se transforma o simples texto p= ara um $1 bem que podia (e deve) realizar a=ED a me= sma altera=E7=E3o. Bom trabalho! ;) Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 06:53:04 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:53:04 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020407045149.GF4731@queen.null.nil> --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:02:21PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: >=20 > Era s=F3 para dizer que o link para a mailing list da ASOL s=F3 est=E1 vi= s=EDvel na=20 > vers=E3o inglesa do site. A p=E1gina tem estado em mudan=E7a e a vers=E3o inglesa n=E3o tem acompanha= do=20 essa mudan=E7a.=20 Dantes estava realmente um link para a mailing-list na p=E1gina principal. Agora est=E1 um pouco escondido dentro da sec=E7=E3o de contactos. Acho que= se devia dar mais relevo a este link, pois a mailing-list =E9 dos "servi=E7os" mais importantes que a ANSOL tem (na minha opini=E3o). Gostava de ouvir mais opini=F5es. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r9BlkNvNeN9nJYcRAmgqAJ9StlxuHBPqEwdlwQlnHKLCU0dE4ACgtqXm Kl0aOU1lWvYPVICEHrAI6hU= =Auz2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qFgkTsE6LiHkLPZw-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 06:56:02 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 05:56:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407045149.GF4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:51:49AM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020407045149.GF4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407055145.B13950@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:51:49AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Dantes estava realmente um link para a mailing-list na p=E1gina princip= al. > Agora est=E1 um pouco escondido dentro da sec=E7=E3o de contactos. Acho= que se > devia dar mais relevo a este link, pois a mailing-list =E9 dos "servi=E7= os" > mais importantes que a ANSOL tem (na minha opini=E3o). >=20 > Gostava de ouvir mais opini=F5es. Concordo. Um link a mais far=E1 mal a ningu=E9m. Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 07:03:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:03:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_?= =?iso-8859-1?B?QWx0ZXJh5+Nv?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407050210.GG4731@queen.null.nil> --O98KdSgI27dgYlM5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:43:05AM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: > Era dessa "autenticidade" de que falava. Poucos se dar=E3o ao trabalho de > procurar as actas em papel f=EDsico quando este se encontra dispon=EDvel = no > site. E assim, conforme as assinaturas necess=E1rias na acta, tamb=E9m es= se > documento deveria ter as mesmas assinaturas (mas digitais), ou uma apenas > em que para ser aplicada obrigasse =E0 participa=E7=E3o de todos os assin= antes. Ent=E3o n=E3o percebo porque disseste no teu mail anterior: "Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento." E j=E1 agora, existe algum m=E9todo pr=E1tico de garantir que uma assinatur= a=20 digital s=F3 pode ser utilizada com a autoriza=E7=E3o de mais do que uma pe= ssoa=20 (em princ=EDpio sendo necess=E1ria a introdu=E7=E3o de v=E1rias passwords -= uma por pessoa)? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --O98KdSgI27dgYlM5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r9LSkNvNeN9nJYcRAg8mAJ404xeUA5Waj88qtfNu/cfgeCm0IgCg2Kba THG4js+QCHYomsGLwcxAx+g= =F/VA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --O98KdSgI27dgYlM5-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 07:14:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:14:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3o_ao_Regulamento_In?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?terno?= In-Reply-To: <20020407050210.GG4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:02:11AM +0100 References: <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> <20020407050210.GG4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407060935.A14063@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:02:11AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Ent=E3o n=E3o percebo porque disseste no teu mail anterior: >=20 > "Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento." Porque referia n=E3o a quest=F5es legais, involvendo o Estado, Tribunais, etc., mas pessoas comuns. Se o documento digital estiver assinado duma forma em que seja indiscut=EDvel a participa=E7=E3o dos assinantes do doc= umento original f=EDsico, legal, ent=E3o para mim o documento =E9 oficial e v=E1= lido. > E j=E1 agora, existe algum m=E9todo pr=E1tico de garantir que uma assin= atura=20 > digital s=F3 pode ser utilizada com a autoriza=E7=E3o de mais do que um= a pessoa=20 > (em princ=EDpio sendo necess=E1ria a introdu=E7=E3o de v=E1rias passwor= ds - uma por > pessoa)? Ter=E1 que ser um m=E9tod que use simult=E2neamente o resultado da ac=E7=E3= o dos v=E1rios assinantes e n=E3o incrementalmente. Mas actualmente n=E3o conhe= =E7o nenhum, terei que pesquisar... Cumprimentos. --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 07:34:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407054820.A13950@nsk.yi.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054820.A13950@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407053249.GH4731@queen.null.nil> --ulDeV4rPMk/y39in Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:48:20AM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: > On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:45:49AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Cuidado que ele n=E3o altera emails que apare=E7am no corpo da mensagem, > > assim se tiverem o vosso email em rodap=E9 (como eu tenho) ele vai apar= ecer > > mesmo como os spammers gostam. > Estou a ver que vais mesmo ter que mexer no c=F3digo. :) >=20 > Se bem que para mim isso =E9 um bug, pois se transforma o simples texto p= ara > um $1 bem que podia (e deve) realizar a=ED a me= sma > altera=E7=E3o. >=20 > Bom trabalho! ;) Est=E1 melhor agora? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ulDeV4rPMk/y39in Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r9oBkNvNeN9nJYcRAiVDAJ9ZJnjtT/gx4lDBnN8P32ydrzYu+wCcCt3v sPqZ/sFMUDM3CFgP/v5lwTI= =tPpF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ulDeV4rPMk/y39in-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 07:43:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:43:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407053249.GH4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:32:50AM +0100 References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054820.A13950@nsk.yi.org> <20020407053249.GH4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:32:50AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Est=E1 melhor agora? O arroba est=E1 engra=E7ado. Mas mais SPAM-safe seria usar "32 arr=E1teis= ". ;) Joking. Parece-me muito bem. Thanks. Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 07:46:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:46:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5DR?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7=E3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020407060935.A14063@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> <20020407050210.GG4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407060935.A14063@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407054515.GI4731@queen.null.nil> --QDd5rp1wjxlDmy9q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:09:35AM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: > On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:02:11AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Ent=E3o n=E3o percebo porque disseste no teu mail anterior: > >=20 > > "Nada disso garante a validade ou oficialidade do documento." > Porque referia n=E3o a quest=F5es legais, involvendo o Estado, Tribunais, > etc., mas pessoas comuns. Se o documento digital estiver assinado duma > forma em que seja indiscut=EDvel a participa=E7=E3o dos assinantes do doc= umento > original f=EDsico, legal, ent=E3o para mim o documento =E9 oficial e v=E1= lido. Acho que estamos com um problema de comunica=E7=E3o. Talvez seja devido ao adiantado da hora. :) O que eu propus era que todos os elementos de um dado =F3rg=E3o assinassem = com o=20 gnupg. Se tiveres a chave p=FAblica deles podes garantir que foram eles que assinaram o documento.=20 Parece-me que =E9 o mesmo que est=E1s a prop=F4r, ou n=E3o =E9? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --QDd5rp1wjxlDmy9q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r9zrkNvNeN9nJYcRAt38AKCvsw9TuIRRhAbFAp7ljYEjURGhGgCfZW04 Tq3eg+pZD2o1RtF+VC4rBQU= =dFdq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --QDd5rp1wjxlDmy9q-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 07:56:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sun Apr 7 06:56:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020406231434.3cdd5878.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <200204080025.39861.gamito@startux.org> <20020407001802.6a25283d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407002747.C8901@nsk.yi.org> <20020407003955.5bbad10a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407044549.GE4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054820.A13950@nsk.yi.org> <20020407053249.GH4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> --a7XSrSxqzVsaECgU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:38:38AM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: >=20 > O arroba est=E1 engra=E7ado. Mas mais SPAM-safe seria usar "32 arr=E1teis= ". ;) > Joking. Parece-me muito bem. Thanks. :) J=E1 agora, isto =E9 uma solu=E7=E3o tempor=E1ria. Na boa filosofia de que = um programa deve fazer apenas uma tarefa e faz=EA-la bem, n=E3o me parece que seja da compet=EAncia do mailman gerar arquivos das listas. Um dia destes, quando estiver com mais disponibilidade, passo a gerar os arquivos com um programa externo, tal como o MHonArc ou o HyperMail. At=E9 porque este pipermail deixa muito a desejar (n=E3o sabe o que =E9 MIME por exemplo). --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --a7XSrSxqzVsaECgU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8r98rkNvNeN9nJYcRAv17AKCiVy8GjR8uwPLV4jKZ1LQIVO0IcACgvehV XNes2LABqWO/fjfbzKiA6p4= =eAgr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a7XSrSxqzVsaECgU-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 7 08:00:02 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 7 07:00:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5D_Altera=E7?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?=E3o_ao_Regulamento_Interno?= In-Reply-To: <20020407054515.GI4731@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:45:15AM +0100 References: <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> <20020407050210.GG4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407060935.A14063@nsk.yi.org> <20020407054515.GI4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020407065524.A16731@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:45:15AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Acho que estamos com um problema de comunica=E7=E3o. Talvez seja devido= ao > adiantado da hora. :) Adiantado? _Apenas_ s=E3o 7h da manh=E3! Est=E1 na altura de acordar! :) > O que eu propus era que todos os elementos de um dado =F3rg=E3o assinas= sem com o=20 > gnupg. Se tiveres a chave p=FAblica deles podes garantir que foram eles= que > assinaram o documento.=20 >=20 > Parece-me que =E9 o mesmo que est=E1s a prop=F4r, ou n=E3o =E9? Mais ou menos. Mas se cada um assinar com a sua chave e essa assinatura ficar =E0 parte, e no documento assinado constar as assinaturas necess=E1= rias, ter=EDamos assim um m=E9todo funcional do que pretendia, embora um pouco = mais trabalhoso por requerer uma verifica=E7=E3o por cada assinatura. Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 7 11:32:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 7 10:32:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <20020407015249.A9822@nsk.yi.org> References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> <1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque> <20020407015249.A9822@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <1018167980.352.12.camel@roque> --=-3CCLD/LYzd89sC/u1Dvm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 01:52, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:33:21AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > > Ha varios motivos para fazer crer que o Open/Star Office possa nao > > existir daqui por poucos anos: > > * o star office vai deixar de ser gratuito > > Isto implica que nao vai poder ser redistribuido como ate agora por > > distribuicoes. > > Para alem disto, vai passar a haver contabilidade dos > > custos/proveitos. Se as contas baterem negativamente e a Sun > > precisar de dinheiro... pode deixar de suportar logisticamente. > > So o website custa mais de um milhao de dolares (USD) por ano, > > aparentemente. > Bem, nesse caso, disponibilizar o StarOffice por $$$ n=E3o trar=E1 mais > preju=EDzos fiscais. Continuar a disponibiliz=E1-lo gratuitamente tornari= a > mais prov=E1vel o seu t=E9rmino. Tamb=E9m, como vai deixar de ser gratuit= o o > webiste ter=E1 uma menor carga. :) Repara que se passam a cobrar significa que vai haver contabilidade. Se fosse gratuito, ja sabiam a partida de que nao se esperava lucros directos de la. Assim sera quease certo terem fundamentos economicos para uma decisao futura. Tendo em conta a qualidade do openoffice, tenho muito receio pelo seu futuro. > > * Os comentarios sao muito maus (quando nao inexistentes) e > > essencialmente em alemao > Isso =E9 mau para o desenvolvimento independente do projecto. Mas se pess= oas > h=E1 que implementaram bibliotecas para ler ficheiros no formato Word, > apenas por desassemblagem, neste caso n=E3o =E9 preciso ir t=E3o longe. bem, quando para separar o codigo do oo para ler o seu file format (zip com manifesto e varios ficheiros) eles consideram precisar de 3 developers a tempo inteiro durante um mes... faz as contas :) > > * e muito dificil compilar o open office > Isso =E9 problema maior para os packagers, como =E9 o teu caso. ;) Os com= uns > mortais usam os pacotes compilados. Os incomuns mortais fazem um cvs up ; > make. e mais por este motivo: sabes quanto custa compilar? Muitas horas, muito espaco livre. Quanto a packaging, a instalacao daquilo e mesmo triste. > > Ou seja, se nao houver $ a apoiar, nao vai ser facil haver > > desenvolvimento. > O mesmo se passa com os outros '"offices" verdadeiramente livres'. A Sun > vai obter maiores recursos por vender o StarOffice. Um problema que vejo = =E9 > a Sun considerar o OpenOffice um concorrente directo e decidir terminar o > seu suporte. Mas duvido que tal aconte=E7a, pois a grande parte das pesso= as > ir=E1 preferir comprar o StarOffice, que dever=E1 ter um pre=E7o simb=F3l= ico > quando comparado com o principal rival, pois ser=E1 de uma companhia > reconhecida (e n=E3o de um bando de "hackers"), e ter=E1 o suporte necess= =E1rio > aos lusers. Simbolico e o que? Parece-me ser mais do que qq distribuicao base que tras muito mais coisas do que um office... Os outros offices livres estao a ser feitos sem $ directo, por isso nao ha quem lhes tire a corrente electrica! Quase todos os developers do oo so o sao porque sao pagos pela sun para o ser. > > O ideal era livrar-se do software nao livre. Nao o podendo fazer por > > motivos estrategicos, penso que pelo menos nao se deveria assumir como > > distribuicao de software livre. > N=E3o tenho ouvido ou lido os respons=E1veis da Caixa M=E1gica a propagan= dear > essa ser uma distribui=E7=E3o de software livre mas antes uma distribui= =E7=E3o de > linux ("Linux Caixa M=E1gica"). Estava a comentar o que se discutia na mailing list, e aqui alguem assim mencionou a CM. Eu comentei a respeito disso. Cheers, --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-3CCLD/LYzd89sC/u1Dvm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sAKso+C50no0+t4RAodvAJ4n4i99W0rDN1QC06yLHfbtSV2C0ACcDk0H yySrdFw+2TuVHZ0Ju5EbgKM= =3rO1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-3CCLD/LYzd89sC/u1Dvm-- From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 7 11:34:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 7 10:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Altera=E7=E3o?= ao Regulamento Interno In-Reply-To: <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020331230813.GC25844@queen.null.nil> <20020401001557.738d21f2.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <3CAA56A0.7090001@europe.com> <20020404025804.GD30448@queen.null.nil> <1017999678.20631.3.camel@roque> <20020405140359.GA3336@queen.null.nil> <20020405154800.A31095@nsk.yi.org> <20020405225031.GD4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406214558.A7077@nsk.yi.org> <20020407043907.GD4731@queen.null.nil> <20020407054305.A13910@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <1018168103.352.16.camel@roque> --=-GslOT1WQeRWrq2cgmiKV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 05:43, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > Claro, estou apenas a ser paran=F3ico. Nao se trata de paranoia, mas de boas praticas para implementar para prevenir chatices de futuro. Hugs --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-GslOT1WQeRWrq2cgmiKV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sAMno+C50no0+t4RAl0yAJ9CLtiRRWB0mqHM4OFjQhAUbtwSHwCgxmR2 REtN8K3KBL5Wkl/0i+f9GNQ= =acEd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GslOT1WQeRWrq2cgmiKV-- From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 7 11:46:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 7 10:46:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Acta In-Reply-To: <20020407043435.GC4731@queen.null.nil> References: <20020406133742.5b1a8c39.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407043435.GC4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018168837.351.24.camel@roque> --=-DIZ4o9UunUa4bBf1EtVi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 05:34, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 01:37:42PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Como podem ver, ja consta na pagina=20 > > http://www.ansol.org/docs/acta-ag1.pt.html > > a acta relativa 'a Ass. Geral. > > No entanto falta la' o apelido do outro Vitor presente na reuniao.. > > Se alguem souber e fizer o favor de o colocar, agradecia. > A acta a que deste o nome de preliminar (n=E3o gosto muito desse nome) es= t=E1 em > http://www.ansol.org/docs/acta-ag1-pre.pt.html > Algu=E9m (acho que at=E9 foste tu) sugeriu criar uma p=E1gina s=F3 para a= s > Assembleias Gerais, onde se colocaria todas as actas e documentos discuti= dos > e aprovados. Acho que seria uma boa ideia. Assim, o link que est=E1 na > p=E1gina principal e que aponta para a acta passava a apontar para esta > p=E1gina nova. O que acham? Concordo. Agora, acho que o nome tv devesse reflectir a data da ag e a sua ordem (tipo: 20020330-1, 200ymmdd-2a, 200ymMdD-2b -- caso em que haja duas sessoes, etc). Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-DIZ4o9UunUa4bBf1EtVi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sAYFo+C50no0+t4RAkSEAKDEUbjz8h76gvX8S6Tog0XffOUUmgCg1wVv 4ePuVnlLd5Qj9J5bV/eE564= =2cyl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-DIZ4o9UunUa4bBf1EtVi-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 7 12:55:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 7 11:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - software livre =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> Message-ID: <1018176656.522.20.camel@central> --=-HBYXofYPVhJKCLwTtgO2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dom, 2002-04-07 at 00:27, Paulo Trezentos wrote: > Viva! >=20 > > > do StarOffice. Como me disse o Paulo Trezentos, "se queres uma > > > distribui=E7=E3o de Software Livre usa Debian". > Estou a ser mal citado. :-)) Pe=E7o desculpa, tens raz=E3o. Disseste-me isso quando te perguntei se havi= a alguma op=E7=E3o para n=E3o instalar software propriet=E1rio. > O que eu disse foi qualquer coisa como: "[... quanto =E0 licen=E7a de > software inclu=EDdo na distribui=E7=E3o] n=E3o perseguimos uma filosofia = t=E3o > fundamentalista como a Debian, porque existe software n=E3o livre > importante para o utilizador rec=E9m-chegado ao Linux." Isto =E9 mentira. A debian tem o reposit=F3rio non-free que faz parte da distribui=E7=E3o. Eu =E9 que escolho n=E3o o usar. > A inclus=E3o ou n=E3o da Caixa M=E1gica na lista parece-me uma discuss=E3= o algo > fr=EDvola. N=E3o =E9 fr=EDvola. Uma lista de Software Livre =E9 suposto ter software q= ue respeita as 4 liberdades do utilizador. Como concordar=E1s, a distribui=E7= =E3o Caixa M=E1gica, no seu todo, n=E3o d=E1 essas 4 liberdades. Como disse o me= smo n=E3o se aplica =E0s ferramentas desenvolvidas no =E2mbito do projecto, mas apenas =E0 distribui=E7=E3o. Tudo isto =E9 independente de o projecto ser considerado ou n=E3o v=E1lido, que penso que o seja, tal como muitos outros. O que est=E1 aqui em causa n=E3o =E9 o projecto em si, mas se parte do seu resultado (a distribui=E7= =E3o) se encaixa na defini=E7=E3o de Software Livre. Eu acho que este assunto =E9 importante. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-HBYXofYPVhJKCLwTtgO2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sCSQGFkMfesLN9wRAqCbAJ4w2wHsXeW/NnLPr7IAeIZ1vIePggCfWdvS sJM33qcIbVPv/0Waw7Tz+Ak= =EAyb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-HBYXofYPVhJKCLwTtgO2-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Sun Apr 7 14:15:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Sun Apr 7 13:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DC=F3digo?= do IVA In-Reply-To: <20020407012625.49b48e7b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <1018124872.1652.9.camel@localhost> <20020407012625.49b48e7b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1018181398.915.10.camel@localhost> --=-XtqGF3v7w9Gg8MYmzFXm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 01:26, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Vamos ver... >=20 >=20 > Capitulo II - Isencoes do codigo do IVA >=20 > De acordo com o ponto 15 do artigo 9: >=20 > As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os e as transmiss=F5es de bens com elas cone= xas, efectuadas por pessoas colectivas de direito p=FAblico e organismos se= m finalidade lucrativa, relativas a congressos, col=F3quios, confer=EAncias= , semin=E1rios, cursos e manifesta=E7=F5es an=E1logas de natureza cient=EDf= ica, cultural, educativa ou t=E9cnica; >=20 > O ponto 21: > As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os e as transmiss=F5es de bens com elas cone= xas efectuadas no interesse colectivo dos seus associados por organismos se= m finalidade lucrativa, desde que esses organismos prossigam objectivos de = natureza pol=EDtica, sindical, religiosa, humanit=E1ria, filantr=F3pica, re= creativa, desportiva, cultural, c=EDvica ou de representa=E7=E3o de interes= ses econ=F3micos e a =FAnica contrapresta=E7=E3o seja uma quota fixada nos = termos dos estatutos; >=20 > E o ponto 23 - A: > As presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os fornecidas aos seus membros por grupos au= t=F3nomos de pessoas que exer=E7am uma actividade isenta, desde que tais se= rvi=E7os sejam directamente necess=E1rios ao exerc=EDcio da actividade e os= grupos se limitem a exigir dos seus membros o reembolso exacto da parte qu= e lhes incumbe nas despesas comuns, desde que, por=E9m, esta isen=E7=E3o n= =E3o seja suscept=EDvel de provocar distor=E7=F5es de concorr=EAncia; Repara que o ponto 23 diz respeito =E0s opera=E7=F5es entre os membros do g= rupo. A venda de produtos realacionados com o SL seria tamb=E9m para o p=FAblico em geral J=E1 tinha dado uma pequena opini=E3o para a direc=E7=E3o que se baseava no= s mesmos pontos desse artigo que apontaste, com excep=E7=E3o do n=BA 23. Parece-me mais apropriado o n=BA22 que passo a transcrever. 22) As transmiss=F5es de bens e as presta=E7=F5es de servi=E7os efectuadas por entidades cujas actividades habituais se encontram isentas nos termos dos n=BAs 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15 e 21 deste artigo, aquando de manifesta=E7=F5es ocasionais destinadas =E0 angaria=E7=E3o de fundos em seu proveito exclusivo, desde que esta isen=E7=E3o n=E3o provoque distor=E7=F5es de concorr=EAncia; Com base nisto tudo tamb=E9m estou convencido que podemos estar isentos da entrega de IVA ao Estado Cumprimentos, Rui Leite =20 --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-XtqGF3v7w9Gg8MYmzFXm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sDcWzPGKuD122fYRAnyMAJ9q1MPsb51QQg3TkIw4Tb5g8bRqtwCfWwVr 5HwZ1regxWY9Z5WqIRB2D2c= =iYBq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-XtqGF3v7w9Gg8MYmzFXm-- From gamito arroba startux.org Sun Apr 7 16:08:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Sun Apr 7 15:08:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL II In-Reply-To: <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> Viva! Antes de mais obrigado por terem protegido os mails do SPAM. J=E1 estou a utilizar o meu pessoal. you've done a man's job, sir. Penso contudo que talvez se pudesse ir um bocadinho mais longe=20 imaginativamente e a hist=F3ria dos 32 arr=E1teis n=E3o seria de todo=20 despropositada. Podia ser por exemplo para o meu mail: "gamito 32 arrateis startux ponto = org" Acho que deste modo, pelo menos automaticamente ningu=E9m nos sacava os m= ails. Abra=E7os, M=E1rio Gamito From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 7 22:29:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 7 21:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL II In-Reply-To: <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <1018207442.351.75.camel@roque> --=-qTgLT7BKbuOTK8mDksTt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 16:04, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Podia ser por exemplo para o meu mail: "gamito 32 arrateis startux ponto = org" #!/usr/bin/perl -p s/ 32 arrateis /\@/; s/ ponto /\./; --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-qTgLT7BKbuOTK8mDksTt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sJzSo+C50no0+t4RApb2AJ9rkBz7GhQUMhtd8RnNRrcB9/lcAgCgkq0f uAoMEGJGq0jRJOaLv15Er1I= =n20p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-qTgLT7BKbuOTK8mDksTt-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 8 01:13:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 8 00:13:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Um Dilema na lista de software livre... Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, queria vos expor a um dilema em que me encontro... Como sabem, fiquei responsável por construir uma página com os projectos de software livre portugueses. No entanto, para sermos justos com a realidade, encontramos muitas pessoas que têm dado muito ao software livre, programando proficuamente, mas em projectos que não tiveram um ínicio nacional. Mais, muitos projectos começam por portugueses mas acabam (como é natural no ciclo de qualquer projecto), em passar o testemunho para outras pessoas, que não são portuguesas. Será então válido considerar estes projectos portugueses? O que põe em questão a própria vontade de classificar os projectos de "portugueses" e a razão da própria lista. Afinal a particpação é multinacional e sempre julgada pelo seu mérito. O que a lista de software livre português deve reflectir? A minha "visão" pessoal, é que é importante existir uma lista de software (com um certo caracter nacionalista, :( ), pela simples razão que este é o nosso contexto cultural e nele devemos mostrar que não é por nascermos e crescermos nele (e dos problemas dele) que não deixamos de conseguir criar projectos únicos, com valor e de desafio técnico. (que acaba por ser na minha perspectiva um hino á iniciativa e força do índividuo). Mas aí esquecemo-nos de outros que se calhar contribuiram com muito mais código e tempo, mas que por não terem iniciado um projecto, não são incluídos na lista. Para então, sermos completos, creio que deviamos fazer um directório de programadores portugueses de software livre. A inscrição seria voluntária, mas qual seria a informação relevante a pôr? Currículo? Os projectos e a importância do seu código? Creio que tb os inscritores poderiam apresentar a sua disponibilidade para fornecer serviços (programação, consultadoria) na área do software livre, o que seria mais um fomentador da criacção de um mercado de software livre. Existem outras hípoteses, tais como criar uma secção ou lista de projectos participados por portugueses. Tal pode até não ser contraprodutivo, pois se dois developers vivem perto, sempre podem conhecer-se e daí resultar mais e melhor código, ou novas participações... A vossa opinião/comentário/proposta Um abraço, André Esteves From rui.rodrigues arroba forevernet.pt Mon Apr 8 01:56:01 2002 From: rui.rodrigues arroba forevernet.pt (Rui Rodrigues) Date: Mon Apr 8 00:56:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Guadec Message-ID: <3CB0DA7D.1090002@forevernet.pt> Boa Noite, alguém foi à Guadec? Passou-se alguma coisa de interessante ou nem por isso? Cumprimentos, Rui Rodrigues From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 05:57:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 04:57:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]slp - =?iso-8859-1?Q?soft?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ware_livre_portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: <1018176656.522.20.camel@central> References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central> <1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt> <1018176656.522.20.camel@central> Message-ID: <20020408035551.GD11703@queen.null.nil> --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:50:56AM +0100, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > On Dom, 2002-04-07 at 00:27, Paulo Trezentos wrote: >=20 > > O que eu disse foi qualquer coisa como: "[... quanto =E0 licen=E7a de > > software inclu=EDdo na distribui=E7=E3o] n=E3o perseguimos uma filosofi= a t=E3o > > fundamentalista como a Debian, porque existe software n=E3o livre > > importante para o utilizador rec=E9m-chegado ao Linux." >=20 > Isto =E9 mentira. A debian tem o reposit=F3rio non-free que faz parte da > distribui=E7=E3o. Eu =E9 que escolho n=E3o o usar. A Debian tem um reposit=F3rio non-free mas ele n=E3o faz parte da Debian propriamente dita. Eis a parte relevante no [0] "Debian Social Contract": 5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive for this software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of software packages in these directories and determine if they can distribute that software on their CDs. Thus, although non-free software isn't a part of Debian, we support its use, and we provide infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists) for non-free software packages. O ponto n=FAmero 1. tamb=E9m confirma esta ideia: 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free software. As there are many definitions of free software, we include the guidelines we use to determine if software is "free" below. We will support our users who develop and run non-free software on Debian, but we will never make the system depend on an item of non-free software. =20 P.S. Parece que vamos ter a woody (Debian 3.0) para o dia 1 de Maio.=20 Finalmente... :) [0] http://www.debian.org/social_contract --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sRTGkNvNeN9nJYcRAugyAJ4q2hGIV/JLxivM9AlDTpklgvQShgCcDhvN O5+KvauQ2gy3PD+L/ue6NR0= =W597 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 06:37:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 05:37:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Um Dilema na lista de software livre... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020408043615.GE11703@queen.null.nil> --d8Lz2Tf5e5STOWUP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:09:31AM +0100, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Para ent=E3o, sermos completos, creio que deviamos fazer um direct=F3rio = de=20 > programadores portugueses de software livre. > A inscri=E7=E3o seria volunt=E1ria, mas qual seria a informa=E7=E3o relev= ante a p=F4r? > Curr=EDculo? Os projectos e a import=E2ncia do seu c=F3digo? > Creio que tb os inscritores poderiam apresentar a sua disponibilidade par= a=20 > fornecer servi=E7os (programa=E7=E3o, consultadoria) na =E1rea do softwar= e livre, o=20 > que seria mais um fomentador da criac=E7=E3o de um mercado de software li= vre. Os programadores ao inscreverem-se podiam preencher um formul=E1rio em que indicavam as =E0reas da sua compet=EAncia.=20 Algo do g=E9nero de (ver com um tipo de letra mono-espa=E7ado): Qu=E9 isso? | J=E1 ouvi falar | Sei o b=E1sico | Estou =E0 vontade |= Sou perito C [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] Perl [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] CVS [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] XML [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] Apache [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] =2E.. Se n=E3o me engano quando um utilizador se inscreve no SourceForge e na Sav= anah=20 tamb=E9m preenche um formul=E1rio deste tipo (at=E9 podemos usar o c=F3digo= deles). Isto permitiria, por exemplo, que uma empresa (ou um projecto independente de software livre) fizesse uma pesquisa de programadores com as compet=EAnc= ias que estivessem a necessitar na altura. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --d8Lz2Tf5e5STOWUP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sR4/kNvNeN9nJYcRAk3gAKDY1ScW8+SpSKP34jj1L5JoG0imwACgz/UK ZWYLsMNGCjzhLAnDpG0cXQE= =zAz0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d8Lz2Tf5e5STOWUP-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 06:45:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 05:45:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL II In-Reply-To: <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020408044404.GF11703@queen.null.nil> --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:04:06PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Penso contudo que talvez se pudesse ir um bocadinho mais longe=20 > imaginativamente e a hist=F3ria dos 32 arr=E1teis n=E3o seria de todo=20 > despropositada. > Podia ser por exemplo para o meu mail: "gamito 32 arrateis startux ponto = org" > Acho que deste modo, pelo menos automaticamente ningu=E9m nos sacava os m= ails. Se partirmos do princ=EDpio que nenhum spammer se vai dar ao trabalho de ad= aptar=20 os seus scripts para a p=E1gina da ansol, ent=E3o o m=E9todo actual deve se= r o suficiente (pelo menos nunca vi nenhum email naquele formato). Se, por outro lado, os spammers chegarem ao ponto de adaptarem os scripts =E0 nossa p=E1gina, ent=E3o nem o teu m=E9todo nos safa. A solu=E7=E3o radical =E9 apagar todos os emails que apare=E7am nos arquivo= s. Acham que vale a pena ir a este ponto? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sSAUkNvNeN9nJYcRAo7zAJ4lPigYzmW0xNe2v1Ti/BKGVEfZxwCguKDv G9R9wPXWW0TnCZAMgyZV+nc= =HNkX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY-- From higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 8 11:58:01 2002 From: higuita7 arroba yahoo.co.uk (higuita) Date: Mon Apr 8 10:58:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Censura Message-ID: <20020408105253.7b984155.higuita7@yahoo.co.uk> --=.GO,+JX,7C6)flc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Mon__8_Apr_2002_10:52:53_+0100_082fbf00" --Multipart_Mon__8_Apr_2002_10:52:53_+0100_082fbf00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/04/07/online.speech.police.ap/index.html -- Neckties strangle clear thinking. -- Lin Yutang Caravela.homelinux.net: 10:52am up 10:39, 7 users, load average: 1.32, 0.88, 0.68 --Multipart_Mon__8_Apr_2002_10:52:53_+0100_082fbf00 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="00000000.mimetmp" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="00000000.mimetmp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMC42IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRVlFQVJFQ0FBWUZBanl4SVprQUNna1FydjFqYXpzTWNyTjNGUUNnbWZLbnR0dlF2 VVJ6NThLT25jclBwM05ECkJBWUFuMVdHeTVINHV5UXNTQlB2S0xzeG1UWmorSUs0Cj1EeEZxCi0t LS0tRU5EIFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQoNCg== --Multipart_Mon__8_Apr_2002_10:52:53_+0100_082fbf00-- --=.GO,+JX,7C6)flc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAjyxaIIACgkQrv1jazsMcrOKoACgjLo/hYzpp0g8QSu1lMoEHZV+ lNoAoOcVucxbekWUJC3eN9dU7Z7VZsqP =tAKL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.GO,+JX,7C6)flc-- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rleite arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 12:07:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Mon Apr 8 11:07:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> --=-7ToG0aMVkBfqLHDPRQrl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 05:28, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:00:48AM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Mas ja que tocamos no aspecto das cotas. > > Como e' que isso esta'?=20 > > Na AG foi deliberado que elas seriam pagas mais tarde... > > Esta' algum prazo previsto ? >=20 > Tanto quanto eu sei, est=E1-se =E0 espera da inscri=E7=E3o da ANSOL nas f= inan=E7as. > Sr. Tesoureiro, quer esclarecer-nos por favor? :) >=20 > --=20 > R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org O Sr. Tesoureiro ainda n=E3o falou com o Sr. Presidente :-) e por isso ainda n=E3o tratou disso! Mas a seguir a escrever isto ir=E1 tomar as medidas necess=E1rias :-) =20 Agora mais a s=E9rio. Pelo que percebi ao conversar com o Jaime, a Comiss=E3o Instaladora j=E1 tinha pedido a inscri=E7=E3o nas Finan=E7as e estava =E0 espera que chegasse o n=FAmero de contribuinte definitivo. Mas eventualmente posso ter percebido mal... agradecia que as pessoas que faziam parte da comiss=E3o instaladora se manifestassem. =20 Mas mais importante que ter um n=FAmero de contribuinte =E9 o facto de, pelos vistos, j=E1 termos que pagar uma multa relativa ao processo da escritura. O Jaime =E9 que estava muito por dentro disto...=20 =20 Prometo que dou not=EDcias em breve. =20 Um outro assunto que gostaria de p=F4r =E0 discuss=E3o =E9 o das contas da associa=E7=E3o. Os relat=F3rios de contas t=EAm que ser p=FAblicos e apresentados nas AG. Mas para a contabilidade interna n=E3o =E9=20 aplic=E1vel tal exig=EAncia. Basicamente estou a falar de lan=E7amentos nos livros de contas.=20 Publica-se ou n=E3o? =20 =20 Cumprimentos a todos, Rui Leite PS: Esta mensagem j=E1 era para ter chegado mais cedo mas houve um lapso lament=E1vel da minha parte e troquei os endere=E7os. --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-7ToG0aMVkBfqLHDPRQrl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sWqdzPGKuD122fYRAqppAKCQI2ql0Zd8xiV8NcdqMRoLlrpjBACfa/Ul hlwEcKCtX5oCWbrvHzV4QAE= =CIW0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-7ToG0aMVkBfqLHDPRQrl-- From subs arroba esoterica.pt Mon Apr 8 12:08:02 2002 From: subs arroba esoterica.pt (Joao Santos) Date: Mon Apr 8 11:08:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Guadec Message-ID: <1018260250.1636.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Boas, > Boa Noite, >=20 > algu=E9m foi =E0 Guadec? Passou-se alguma coisa de interessante ou nem p= or=20 > isso? >=20 >=20 > Cumprimentos, > Rui Rodrigues Inscrevi-me ontem na lista precisamente por me terem dito em Sevilha da existncia da Ansol. Sou Jo=E3o Santos e vivo perto do Barreiro, margem sul de Lisboa. Acerca da confer=EAncia, foi bastante boa. Haviam esfor=E7os para a vers=E3= o 2.0 do Gnome estar pronta mas n=E3o houve possibilidade de ir at=E9 mais qu= e o Beta 3 Preview. Pelo que pude ver, est=E1 bastante bom e com =F3ptimo aspecto, mas apenas a release pode dizer tudo... Alguns dos pontos altos incluem uma confer=EAncia de introdu=E7=E3o ao Mono Project (http://www.go-mono.org, acho) por Miguel de Icaza. O Mono Project pretende implementar a framework de desenvolvimento .NET no Gnome. De interesse tamb=E9m foi a confer=EAncia sobre o Common Language Runtime no Mono, em que se aprofundavam os assuntos levantados na anterior. Houve um hilariante espect=E1culo humor=EDstico com um c=F3mico a demonstra= r as peculiaridades dos sistemas operativos. Hilariante, mas s=F3 visto. Parece que a parte do OpenOffice foi tamb=E9m bastante boa, mas n=E3o assisti. Algu=E9m poder=E1 dizer melhor. Paulo Carvalho? No geral, foi muito bom. A ideia geral =E9 que o Gnome ainda vais um pouco atr=E1s, mas est=E1 r=E1pidamente a avan=E7ar. Eu tenderia a ser um pouco m= ais optimista que os pr=F3prios developers. Valeu a pena ir. =20 --=20 Lay "Weakly-typed languages alone will bring us Armageddon" http://barkingcat.org/counterforce From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 8 15:42:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 8 14:42:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Um Dilema na lista de software livre... References: Message-ID: <004b01c1df02$90ca7300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva André, Eu, pessoalmente, colaboro com alguns projectos OpenSource relacionados com a WEB (embora só nas traduções e mais raramente na modificação de código) e só conheço um destes projectos GPL web como tendo sido iniciado por um português. Há, claro, a Caixa Mágica. Acho que seria mais interessante colocar projectos nos quais colaboram portugueses, mencionando o projecto e a lista dos contactos programadores portugueses envolvidos. Uma lista de programadores de SL não é interessante porque, como todos sabemos, nem sempre se mantêm muito tempo nessa área, sendo mais comum ser um hobby ou uma necessidade de trabalho (no meu caso eu colaboro com os programas que preciso para o meu trabalho: não estou a inventar a roda e ainda posso dar uma mãozinha ;) ). Esta última lista de programadores pode até ser contraproducente, pois algumas empresas podem usá-las para angariar colaboradores (nem sempre para GPL). Além de que é muito mais díficil comprovar que essas pessoas estão mesmo a trabalhar em projectos GPL e que não usarão a lista como uma froma de auto-promoção. 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "André Esteves" To: Sent: Segunda-feira, 8 de Abril de 2002 0:09 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Um Dilema na lista de software livre... Caros membros da lista, queria vos expor a um dilema em que me encontro... Como sabem, fiquei responsável por construir uma página com os projectos de software livre portugueses. No entanto, para sermos justos com a realidade, encontramos muitas pessoas que têm dado muito ao software livre, programando proficuamente, mas em projectos que não tiveram um ínicio nacional. Mais, muitos projectos começam por portugueses mas acabam (como é natural no ciclo de qualquer projecto), em passar o testemunho para outras pessoas, que não são portuguesas. Será então válido considerar estes projectos portugueses? O que põe em questão a própria vontade de classificar os projectos de "portugueses" e a razão da própria lista. Afinal a particpação é multinacional e sempre julgada pelo seu mérito. O que a lista de software livre português deve reflectir? A minha "visão" pessoal, é que é importante existir uma lista de software (com um certo caracter nacionalista, :( ), pela simples razão que este é o nosso contexto cultural e nele devemos mostrar que não é por nascermos e crescermos nele (e dos problemas dele) que não deixamos de conseguir criar projectos únicos, com valor e de desafio técnico. (que acaba por ser na minha perspectiva um hino á iniciativa e força do índividuo). Mas aí esquecemo-nos de outros que se calhar contribuiram com muito mais código e tempo, mas que por não terem iniciado um projecto, não são incluídos na lista. Para então, sermos completos, creio que deviamos fazer um directório de programadores portugueses de software livre. A inscrição seria voluntária, mas qual seria a informação relevante a pôr? Currículo? Os projectos e a importância do seu código? Creio que tb os inscritores poderiam apresentar a sua disponibilidade para fornecer serviços (programação, consultadoria) na área do software livre, o que seria mais um fomentador da criacção de um mercado de software livre. Existem outras hípoteses, tais como criar uma secção ou lista de projectos participados por portugueses. Tal pode até não ser contraprodutivo, pois se dois developers vivem perto, sempre podem conhecer-se e daí resultar mais e melhor código, ou novas participações... A vossa opinião/comentário/proposta Um abraço, André Esteves From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 8 20:03:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 8 19:03:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] slp - software livreportuguês References: <1018108857.862.6.camel@central><1018130841.1243.8.camel@central> <3CAF844F.DE9BB430@iscte.pt><1018136001.30989.52.camel@roque> <20020407015249.A9822@nsk.yi.org> <1018167980.352.12.camel@roque> Message-ID: <027201c1df26$f9b49fc0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva, Em relação à Caixa Mágica eu só queria dizer uma coisa: 1. Eles poderiam fazer precisamente algo que resolveria esse problema das Licenças. 1.1. Criam uma mini-distribuição (ou ecónomica) que só tem o Software Livre 1.2. Criam outra que traz os CD's com os outros programas A Conectiva tem um esquema semelhante. Outras também devem ter, acho eu. A distro "Ecônomica" da Conectiva só tem dois CD's: um com os binários e outro com os sources e os docs. Depois têm outras distros em "caixinha" com os manuais impressos, os 2 CD's básicos, outros CD's com software com várias licenças. e UM CD SEPARADO que contém o StarOffice. Acho que o StarOffice que virá com a Caixa Mágica também é neste formato de CD separado!? Esclarece-nos Paulo ;-) Assim a distro "Caixa Mágica" pode aparecer na lista SLP: Opção 1. Caixa Mágica (versão Económica) Licença GPL Opção 2. Caixa Mágica (versão desktop e servidor) Licença GPL e outras Simples não? Assim não se excluia um projecto que achamos muito importante. Eu posso ter algumas criticas a algumas coisas relacionadas com a CM mas neste caso acho que é injustificado ostracizar um verdadeiro esforço meritório de toda a equipa da Caixa Mágica. Se eles fizerem a distinção acima óptimo, se não acho que se pode colocar sempre a opção 2. que se encontra acima. Não se pode é dizer que é somente GPL e criar um problema futuro nas mentes menos esclarecidas. O que ainda não percebi é de quem é a distro, i.e. o seu copyright e o direito a definir o seu futuro caminho: 1. se da Universidade, 2. se do ADETTI ou, 3. se do Paulo T. e al.. Nesta área, como é algo habitual no nosso país, há alguma nebolusidade. Gostava mesmo de saber se não estaremos perante um novo caso de "SAP(O)"ite em progresso :-( É que eu, como empresário e contribuinte, já ando a começar a ficar um bocado farto de andar a descontar impostos para depois alguns senhores fazerem grandes negócios à custa do "aproveitamento" de certas facilidades institucionais :-[ 1[], Lopo From fmaia arroba gmx.net Mon Apr 8 21:16:01 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Mon Apr 8 20:16:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Mailing list da ANSOL II In-Reply-To: <20020408044404.GF11703@queen.null.nil> References: <200204072302.21728.webmaster@startux.org> <20020407063838.A16443@nsk.yi.org> <20020407055451.GJ4731@queen.null.nil> <200204081604.06295.gamito@startux.org> <20020408044404.GF11703@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020408200858.0b5886c6.fmaia@gmx.net> On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 05:44:04 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:04:06PM +0100, Mário Gamito wrote: > > Penso contudo que talvez se pudesse ir um bocadinho mais longe > > imaginativamente e a história dos 32 arráteis não seria de todo > > despropositada. > > Podia ser por exemplo para o meu mail: "gamito 32 arrateis startux ponto org" > > Acho que deste modo, pelo menos automaticamente ninguém nos sacava os mails. > > Se partirmos do princípio que nenhum spammer se vai dar ao trabalho de adaptar > os seus scripts para a página da ansol, então o método actual deve ser o > suficiente (pelo menos nunca vi nenhum email naquele formato). > > Se, por outro lado, os spammers chegarem ao ponto de adaptarem os scripts > à nossa página, então nem o teu método nos safa. > > A solução radical é apagar todos os emails que apareçam nos arquivos. > Acham que vale a pena ir a este ponto? Eu acho que já estamos a entrar no campo da paranoia profunda. Não que um pouco de paranoia não seja saudável, mas acho que não vale a pena exagerar :-) -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 21:49:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 20:49:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> --KDt/GgjP6HVcx58l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:02:06AM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: > =20 > Agora mais a s=E9rio. Pelo que percebi ao conversar com o Jaime, a > Comiss=E3o Instaladora j=E1 tinha pedido a inscri=E7=E3o nas Finan=E7as e > estava =E0 espera que chegasse o n=FAmero de contribuinte definitivo. > Mas eventualmente posso ter percebido mal... agradecia que as pessoas > que faziam parte da comiss=E3o instaladora se manifestassem. A ANSOL tem um cart=E3o provis=F3rio de identifica=E7=E3o de pessoa colecti= va. Neste cart=E3o consta o chamado n=FAmero de contribuinte que =E9 definitivo= e n=E3o vai mudar. A =FAnica coisa que muda =E9 um "P" (que significa provis=F3rio)= que precede o n=FAmero. Acho que o cart=E3o definitivo ainda n=E3o chegou, mas = nas=20 finan=E7as o cart=E3o provis=F3rio =E9 suficiente, desde que ainda n=E3o te= nha caducado. Como refer=EAncia aqui fica o n=FAmero de contribuinte da ANSOL: 505742470. J=E1 agora, e quanto aos recibos. Acho que n=E3o =E9 necess=E1rio estar a m= andar faz=EA-los numa gr=E1fica. Podem ser gerados por computador, mas se n=E3o me engano t=EAm de ter l=E1 escrito algo como "Processado por computador". > Um outro assunto que gostaria de p=F4r =E0 discuss=E3o =E9 o das contas > da associa=E7=E3o. Os relat=F3rios de contas t=EAm que ser p=FAblicos e > apresentados nas AG. Mas para a contabilidade interna n=E3o =E9=20 > aplic=E1vel tal exig=EAncia. Basicamente estou a falar de lan=E7amentos > nos livros de contas.=20 Isso =E9 importante. Quais s=E3o as desvantagens de tal ser p=FAblico? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --KDt/GgjP6HVcx58l Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sfPgkNvNeN9nJYcRAi+NAJsFOtEm7YRu2zSl9zirYjOK/7KojwCaA4O5 trLYv7jHgYLsl/kAnO2gQKc= =w+63 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KDt/GgjP6HVcx58l-- From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 8 22:02:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 8 21:02:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 Message-ID: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> --=-uPlPqi1UK2qS3lr64c4u Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Viva, Tenciono mandar a seguinte carta para a Sem@na Informatica. Alguem quer propor altera=E7=F5es? Os elementos do To: s=E3o o juarezc@mail.fbento.pt e frocha@mail.fbento.pt vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Gostaria de come=E7ar por vos parabenizar pelos artigos sobre o sistema GNU/Linux que surgiram na edi=E7=E3o #593 da SI: parab=E9ns. Contudo, os artigos continham alguns erros factuais que conv=E9m que sejam corrigidos, para que possam ultrapassar a vossa qualidade habitual em futuras edi=E7=F5es. CORREC=C7=C3O #1, n=E3o =E9 somente Linux, h=E1 mais do que um kernel num = sistema operativo, uma pequena base hist=F3rica (muito por alto): A meados dos anos 80, um grupo de pessoas apercebeu-se de uma tend=EAncia crescente para a monopoliza=E7=E3o do software atrav=E9s de licenciamentos danosos para os consumidores ao inv=E9s do que era comum acontecer, onde se partilhavam muitas ideias. Decidiram ent=E3o criar um sistema completamente livre, o sistema GNU. Come=E7aram por criar uma grande quantidade de ferramentas (compilador da linguagem c, parsers, etc) e paralelamente um kernel (HURD) para o sistema. Como n=E3o dispunham de recursos humanos suficientemente grandes e capazes, o kernel hurd tem demorado muito a ser feito. Entretanto, em in=EDcios da d=E9cada de 90, Linus Torvalds (CORREC=C7=C3O #2: =E9 Torvalds= e n=E3o Torvald) apresentou ao mundo uma vers=E3o muito alfa de um kernel que se veio a chamar Linux. Assim, com a associa=E7=E3o das ferramentas GNU ao kernel Linux, surgiu o chamado sistema GNU/Linux. CORREC=C7=C3O #3: Linus desenvolveu um kernel (parte b=E1sica de um siste= ma operativo) e n=E3o um sistema operativo. Com um kernel apenas n=E3o se faz nada, tal como com as ferramentas sem kernel para as executar n=E3o se faz nada. CORREC=C7=C3O #4: as diferentes distribui=E7=F5es de GNU/Linux contabiliz= aram em estudos recentes ter uma quota de mercado de cerca de 20% do mercado de servidores. Ora, contando que estas quotas s=F3 conseguem contabilizar as c=F3pias de cd's vendidos e ignoram que de cada cd se podem instalar milhares de m=E1quinas e que na maior parte das vezes se pode trazer os cds de instala=E7=E3o a partir da internet, e perfeitamente cred=EDvel pode= r contabilizar a quota de servidores baseados no GNU/Linux com n=FAmeros bem superiores. Assim, n=E3o se pode dizer que seja um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5= es marginalizado. Alias, o RedHat 7.2 pode ser instalado em IA64. E o Windows e as suas aplica=E7=F5es? CORREC=C7=C3O #5: 4=BA e 5=BA par=E1grafos (inicia em "Veja-se" e termina= em "diante).".) do editorial. Aqui =E9 afirmado de servi=E7os que n=E3o s=E3o necess=E1rios no GNU/L= inux, e que essa implica=E7=E3o ter reflexos negativos. Estes dois par=E1grafos n=E3o fazem o menor sentido. Provavelmente requisitos editoriais cortaram algumas palavras chave que explicariam o que se pretende. Contudo, o facto de n=E3o necessitar ter certos servi=E7os instalados n=E3o reflecte negativamente mas sim positivamente. Para se ter um servi=E7o de http (web server) n=E3o faz o menor sentido necessitar de RPC ou de SMB (remote procedure calls e sharing de ficheiros). Optar por n=E3o os instalar n=E3o s=F3 n=E3o tem reflexos negativos, como s=F3 tem re= flexos positivios (menos carga na m=E1quina, menos riscos de seguran=E7a, etc). A empresa onde trabalho tem provavelmente mais servidores com GNU/Linux do que com Solaris ou HP-UX... CORREC=C7=C3O #6: a oferta de forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux reflecte neste mom= ento a sua procura. Se mais empresas quisessem formar mais quadros neste sistema, a oferta de forma=E7=E3o imediatamente cresceria. =C9 preciso ver = que h=E1 que ter em conta que a maioria das empresas de forma=E7=E3o n=E3o quer arriscar muito em =E1reas com procura baixa, e por isso n=E3o e frequente ver forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux, mas actualmente h=E1 cada vez mais. CORREC=C7=C3O #7: a IBM (um enorme player) investiu mil milhoes de d=F3lar= es no GNU/Linux no ano passado. Em menos de um ano, como resultados directos desse investimento, o dinheiro regressou todo aos cofres da empresa, e por grande excesso! O autor dessa iniciativa foi entao promovido a CEO. Sera que a IBM n=E3o =E9 um principal player? Eu diria que sim... e a IBM at=E9 suporta o GNU/Linux nos seus mainframes S/390. CORREC=C7=C3O #8: no GNU/Linux ter acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 uma pr=E9 condi=E7=E3o do software livre. N=E3o se trada de c=F3digo aberto, mas de software livre. Com a grande maioria do software, =E9 permitido correr o software para qualquer prop=F3sito, estudar o seu funcionamento e adapt=E1-lo =E0s suas necessidades (o acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o), distribuir c=F3pias para ajudar os seus vizinhos, distribuir c=F3pias melhoradas de forma a beneficiar toda a comunidade (o acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o). Com estes 4 princ=EDpios,= o software livre tem crescido o seu desenvolvimento e assim atingiu o n=EDvel de maturidade que j=E1 tem desde h=E1 algum tempo!! CORREC=C7=C3O #9: o leque aplicacional no software livre =E9 MUITO superio= r ao do Windows. Contudo, algumas aplica=E7=F3es (ferramentas de office, sobretudo) est=E3o ainda em fases um tanto ou quanto iniciais de maturidade. Por=E9m, estas ferramentas n=E3o tiveram nem os d=F3lares da Microsoft, nem o mesmo tempo de desenvovimento. Quanto a aplica=E7=F5es em rede... ainda a Microsoft n=E3o tinha uma stack TCP/IP pr=F3pria, e j=E1 ha= via servidores GNU/Linux on-line. CORREC=C7=C3O #10: n=E3o se deve usar o termo c=F3digo aberto, este termo = n=E3o est=E1 definido em lado nenhum nem tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3o,= e por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e distorcer o significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores. Uma prova disso =E9 o dito "c=F3digo aberto" (programa Shared Source) da Microsoft, no qual uma empresa que olhe para o c=F3digo providenciado pela Microsoft ficar=E1 imediatamente castrado nessa =E1rea cient=EDfica, ficand= o assim completamente impossibilitado de poder competir nessa =E1rea contra a Microsoft. Isto =E9 extremamente mau para as empresas que adiram a estes programas!! NOTA #1: o custo s=F3 por si do software tem um peso menor do que o que se lhe atribui. Tenho de concordar com Rudolfo Oliveira da Microsoft. Ser=E1 que a Microsoft providencia o seu software de forma a que os seus clientes tenham os poderes que podem ter com os 4 princ=EDpios do software livre? N=E3o. Pelo que se conclui que os clientes recebem um respeito muito maior da parte dos produtores de Software Livre do que da Microsoft. Isso tem um peso bastante grande! Depois deste extenso email, apresento links onde pode obter mais informa=E7=F5es: http://www.ansol.org (Associa=E7=E3o Nacional para o SOftware Livre) http://www.fsf.org (Funda=E7=E3o para o Software Livre) http://www.linux.org (site do kernel Linux) Os melhores cumprimentos, Rui M. Seabra ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Que acham? Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-uPlPqi1UK2qS3lr64c4u Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sefZo+C50no0+t4RAhEEAKC6wbVGHlDIkSyUdkXuthOIWz+CUgCcDb7m iGgv2FRSFF1BUzkkYoAnc6I= =Gir2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-uPlPqi1UK2qS3lr64c4u-- From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 8 22:16:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 8 21:16:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Actas e outro In-Reply-To: <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018293040.19454.64.camel@roque> --=-a6L1pqPuobTDraIwfZKu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 20:47, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Um outro assunto que gostaria de p=F4r =E0 discuss=E3o =E9 o das contas > > da associa=E7=E3o. Os relat=F3rios de contas t=EAm que ser p=FAblicos e > > apresentados nas AG. Mas para a contabilidade interna n=E3o =E9=20 > > aplic=E1vel tal exig=EAncia. Basicamente estou a falar de lan=E7amentos > > nos livros de contas.=20 > Isso =E9 importante. Quais s=E3o as desvantagens de tal ser p=FAblico? So consigo discernir mas vozes que nao gostem de opcoes de compra de certos artigos em prol de outras, e que so saibam criticar a posteriori. De resto, ate podem haver desvantagens reais e nao as estar a ver. Hugs --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-a6L1pqPuobTDraIwfZKu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8seswo+C50no0+t4RAivcAJ0UTYMoU6Gor86fl05DcFjvvytfawCgi3yQ MSTl7q3mI7i0gMp2vyXSXFs= =HvYV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-a6L1pqPuobTDraIwfZKu-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 22:16:03 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 21:16:03 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Um Dilema na lista de software livre... In-Reply-To: <004b01c1df02$90ca7300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <004b01c1df02$90ca7300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020408201438.GD14149@queen.null.nil> --qGV0fN9tzfkG3CxV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 02:37:21PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >=20 > Uma lista de programadores de SL n=E3o =E9 interessante porque, como todos > sabemos, nem sempre se mant=EAm muito tempo nessa =E1rea, sendo mais comu= m ser > um hobby ou uma necessidade de trabalho (no meu caso eu colaboro com os > programas que preciso para o meu trabalho: n=E3o estou a inventar a roda e > ainda posso dar uma m=E3ozinha ;) ). Muitos n=E3o se mant=EAm, n=E3o porque prefiram desenvolver software propri= et=E1rio, mas porque as ofertas de emprego/trabalho que lhes s=E3o oferecidas s=E3o q= uase exclusivamente para desenvolver software propriet=E1rio. Esta =E9 uma manei= ra de facilitar a comunica=E7=E3o entre os programadores de software livre e as empresas que pretendem desenvolver (ou melhorar/alterar) software livre,=20 permitindo que estes programadores possam auferir rendimentos a desenvolver= =20 software livre.=20 > Esta =FAltima lista de programadores pode at=E9 ser contraproducente, pois > algumas empresas podem us=E1-las para angariar colaboradores (nem sempre = para > GPL). Al=E9m de que =E9 muito mais d=EDficil comprovar que essas pessoas = est=E3o > mesmo a trabalhar em projectos GPL e que n=E3o usar=E3o a lista como uma = froma > de auto-promo=E7=E3o. Existe sempre o perigo de empresas usarem essa lista para contratar as pessoas para desenvolver software propriet=E1rio. Podemos no entanto fazer como a FSF faz no seu [0] "GNU Service Directory" do qual passo a citar: "Before FSF will list your name in the GNU Service Directory, we ask that you agree informally to the following terms: 1. You will not restrict (except by copyleft) the use or distribution of any software, documentation, or other technical information you supply anyone in the course of modifying, extending, or supporting GNU software. This includes any information specifically designed to ameliorate the use of GNU software. 2. You will not take advantage of contact made through the Service Directory to advertise an unrelated business (e.g., sales of non-GNU-related proprietary information). You may spontaneously mention your availability for general consulting, but you should not promote a specific unrelated business unless the client asks." =C9 claro que isto n=E3o d=E1 garantias de nada, mas n=F3s tamb=E9m n=E3o q= ueremos andar a fazer de pol=EDcias nem a fazer "raids" pelas empresas. :) P.S. Referes-te frequentemente a "software GPL" como sendo sin=F3nimo de=20 software livre. No entanto existem muitas outras licen=E7as al=E9m da GPL que tamb=E9m s=E3o consideradas software livre. [0] http://www.fsf.org/prep/service.html --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --qGV0fN9tzfkG3CxV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sfoukNvNeN9nJYcRAn7mAKCAI4j6ApXKlFmpPLg9zkpeQTMBdQCgou6Q jcE0QhlGtyyjA+d4SijM+UQ= =82OO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qGV0fN9tzfkG3CxV-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Mon Apr 8 22:38:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Mon Apr 8 21:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na =?iso-8859-1?Q?Inf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ormatica_N=BA?= 593 In-Reply-To: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> References: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020408203720.GE14149@queen.null.nil> --ZRyEpB+iJ+qUx0kp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:56:25PM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: >=20 > Tenciono mandar a seguinte carta para a Sem@na Informatica. O artigo est=E1 online? > CORREC=C7=C3O #10: n=E3o se deve usar o termo c=F3digo aberto, este term= o n=E3o > est=E1 definido em lado nenhum nem tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3= o, e > por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e > distorcer o significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores. [...] Por essa ordem de ideias tamb=E9m n=E3o se deve utilizar o termo software livre, pois ele tamb=E9m n=E3o "tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3o, e = por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e distorcer o= =20 significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores". --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ZRyEpB+iJ+qUx0kp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sf+AkNvNeN9nJYcRAnoiAJ99YHvt17V2jXZ3gfoxxZGUDc1GegCgunc2 /uzDF6v3oppyDcf4I5f9Sq4= =xDnL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZRyEpB+iJ+qUx0kp-- From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Mon Apr 8 23:12:01 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Mon Apr 8 22:12:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 References: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> Message-ID: <3CB20697.54B0874C@explicacoes.com> Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > CORRECÇÃO #1, não é somente Linux, há mais do que um kernel num sistema > operativo, uma pequena base histórica (muito por alto): Sugestão: CORRECÇÃO #1, O Linux não é o único ... Eu não consigo perceber o que queres dizer, mas acho que se começares a frase assim consegues explicar melhor. Será que era: CORRECÇÃO #1, O Linux não é o único kernel livre. ou então: CORRECÇÃO #1, O Linux não é o único componente do sistema operativo. [será que é isto?] > A meados dos anos 80, um grupo de pessoas apercebeu-se de uma > tendência crescente para a monopolização do software através de > licenciamentos danosos para os consumidores ao invés do que era comum > acontecer, onde se partilhavam muitas ideias. Decidiram então criar um > sistema completamente livre, o sistema GNU. sugestão (isto é só uma reformulação do texto): A meados dos anos 80, o hábito instituido de partilhar programas entre programadores e utilizadores começou a ser abandonado. Os programas passaram a ser monopolizado através de licenciamentos danosos para os consumidores. Um grupo de programadores, descontente com o rumo dos acontecimentos decidiu então criar um sistema completamente livre, o sistema GNU. > CORRECÇÃO #4: as diferentes distribuições de GNU/Linux contabilizaram > em estudos recentes ter uma quota de mercado de cerca de 20% do mercado > de servidores. Ora, contando que estas quotas só conseguem contabilizar > as cópias de cd's vendidos e ignoram que de cada cd se podem instalar > milhares de máquinas e que na maior parte das vezes se pode trazer os > cds de instalação a partir da internet, e perfeitamente credível poder > contabilizar a quota de servidores baseados no GNU/Linux com números bem > superiores. Assim, não se pode dizer que seja um conjunto de aplicações > marginalizado. Alias, o RedHat 7.2 pode ser instalado em IA64. E o > Windows e as suas aplicações? Sugestão (isto é só uma reformulação do texto): CORRECÇÃO #4: Estudos de mercado realizados recentemente mostraram que as diferentes distribuições de GNU/Linux têm uma quota de cerca de 20% do mercado de servidores. Ora, como esta quota foi determinada para as cópias de cd's vendidos, como cada cd pode ser utilizado para instalar o GNU/Linux em milhares de máquinas e como na maior parte das vezes os cds de instalação podem ser copiados através da internet, é muito provável que a quota de servidores baseados no GNU/Linux seja muito maior que 20%. O GNU/Linux não é, portanto, um conjunto de aplicações marginal. Alias, o RedHat 7.2 pode ser instalado em IA64. E o Windows e as suas aplicações? > CORRECÇÃO #5: 4º e 5º parágrafos (inicia em "Veja-se" e termina em > "diante).".) do editorial. > Aqui é afirmado de serviços que não são necessários no GNU/Linux, e > que essa implicação ter reflexos negativos. Tens que reescrever esta frase. > Estes dois parágrafos não fazem o menor sentido. Provavelmente > requisitos editoriais cortaram algumas palavras chave que explicariam o > que se pretende. Contudo, o facto de não necessitar ter certos serviços > instalados não reflecte negativamente mas sim positivamente. Sugestão: instalados não SE reflecte negativamente mas sim positivamente. > > CORRECÇÃO #6: a oferta de formação em GNU/Linux reflecte neste momento > a sua procura. Se mais empresas quisessem formar mais quadros neste > sistema, a oferta de formação imediatamente cresceria. É preciso ver que > há que ter em conta que a maioria das empresas de formação não quer > arriscar muito em áreas com procura baixa, e por isso não e frequente > ver formação em GNU/Linux, mas actualmente há cada vez mais. sugestão: corta o "actualmente" em mas actualmente há cada vez mais. > CORRECÇÃO #7: a IBM (um enorme player) investiu mil milhoes de dólares > no GNU/Linux no ano passado. Em menos de um ano, como resultados > directos desse investimento, o dinheiro regressou todo aos cofres da > empresa, e por grande excesso! O autor dessa iniciativa foi entao > promovido a CEO. Sera que a IBM não é um principal player? Eu diria que > sim... e a IBM até suporta o GNU/Linux nos seus mainframes S/390. Sugestão: "Em menos de um ano, como resultados directos desse investimento, o dinheiro regressou todo aos cofres da empresa, e por grande excesso!" fica melhor: O investimento foi recuperado em menos de um ano. Sugestão: "Sera que a IBM não é um principal player? " muda para "Sera que a IBM não é um player importante? " > CORRECÇÃO #8: no GNU/Linux ter acesso ao código fonte é uma pré > condição do software livre. Não se trada de código aberto, mas de > software livre. Com a grande maioria do software, é permitido correr o > software para qualquer propósito, estudar o seu funcionamento e > adaptá-lo às suas necessidades (o acesso ao código fonte é > pré-condição), distribuir cópias para ajudar os seus vizinhos, > distribuir cópias melhoradas de forma a beneficiar toda a comunidade (o > acesso ao código fonte é pré-condição). Com estes 4 princípios, o > software livre tem crescido o seu desenvolvimento e assim atingiu o > nível de maturidade que já tem desde há algum tempo!! 'no GNU/Linux ter acesso ao código fonte é uma pré condição do software livre.' muda para: O acesso ao código fonte é uma condição necessária, mas não suficiente para que um determinado software seja considerado livre. Para que o software seja considerado livre... - principio 1 - principio 2 - principio 3 - principio 4 Em: "Com a grande maioria do software" falta-te "livre" > CORRECÇÃO #9: o leque aplicacional no software livre é MUITO superior > ao do Windows. Contudo, algumas aplicaçóes (ferramentas de office, > sobretudo) estão ainda em fases um tanto ou quanto iniciais de > maturidade. Porém, estas ferramentas não tiveram nem os dólares da > Microsoft, nem o mesmo tempo de desenvovimento. Quanto a aplicações em > rede... ainda a Microsoft não tinha uma stack TCP/IP própria, e já havia > servidores GNU/Linux on-line. Sugestão: CORRECÇÃO #9: o leque aplicações diponíveis para GNU/LINUX é MUITO superior ao disponível para MSWindows. sugestão de conteúdo: As ferramentas office para linux estão ao nível das que existiam para o Windows quê? windows 3? Já nessa altura a maior parte das pessoas estava satisfeita com as feramentas que tinha. O que leva muita gente a fazer upgrades é a incompatibilidade de formatos. E a incompatibilidade de formatos é que impede a aceitação do Linux. > NOTA #1: o custo só por si do software tem um peso menor do que o que > se lhe atribui. Tenho de concordar com Rudolfo Oliveira da Microsoft. > Será que a Microsoft providencia o seu software de forma a que os seus > clientes tenham os poderes que podem ter com os 4 princípios do software > livre? Não. Pelo que se conclui que os clientes recebem um respeito > muito maior da parte dos produtores de Software Livre do que da > Microsoft. Isso tem um peso bastante grande! Sugestão: Pelo que se conclui que os clientes muito mais respeitados pelos produtores de Software Livre do que pela Microsoft. From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 8 23:20:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 8 22:20:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 In-Reply-To: <20020408203720.GE14149@queen.null.nil> References: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> <20020408203720.GE14149@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018296874.20029.14.camel@roque> --=-z8G2ArcVPLjI5ytth3ep Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 21:37, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:56:25PM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > > Tenciono mandar a seguinte carta para a Sem@na Informatica. > O artigo est=E1 online? Nao faco ideia se sequer teem website. Nos aqui recebemos paperware disto. > > CORREC=C7=C3O #10: n=E3o se deve usar o termo c=F3digo aberto, este te= rmo n=E3o > > est=E1 definido em lado nenhum nem tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7= =E3o, e > > por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e > > distorcer o significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores. [...] > Por essa ordem de ideias tamb=E9m n=E3o se deve utilizar o termo software > livre, pois ele tamb=E9m n=E3o "tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3o, = e por isso > qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e distorcer o= =20 > significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores". Tinha ideia de que a Free Software Definition estava copyrighted :) Copyright (C) 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111, USA=20 in http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-z8G2ArcVPLjI5ytth3ep Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sfoqo+C50no0+t4RAmSCAKC7wn3C2L077S0IGdwZpcgUSgNmnQCfdtwD zXmtlLA7lltmrJXgwOAWo3Y= =orgL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-z8G2ArcVPLjI5ytth3ep-- From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 8 23:36:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 8 22:36:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 (v2) Message-ID: <1018297846.20029.32.camel@roque> --=-jHPKIlJBMkrSAbDuacMM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reformulacao contendo as altera=E7=F5es sugeridas pelo Mario Miranda. Viva, Gostaria de come=E7ar por vos felicitar pelos artigos sobre o sistema GNU/Linux que surgiram na edi=E7=E3o #593 da SI: parab=E9ns. Contudo, os artigos continham alguns erros factuais que conv=E9m que sejam corrigidos, para que possam ultrapassar a vossa qualidade habitual em futuras edi=E7=F5es. CORREC=C7=C3O #1, O Linux n=E3o =E9 o =FAnico componente de um sistema ope= rativo, uma pequena base hist=F3rica (muito por alto): A meados dos anos 80 o h=E1bito instituido de partilhar programas=20 entre programadores e utilizadores come=E7ou a ser abandonado. Os=20 programas passaram a ser monopolizado atrav=E9s de licenciamentos danosos=20 para os consumidores. Um grupo de programadores, descontente com o rumo dos acontecimentos decidiu ent=E3o criar um sistema completamente livre,=20 o sistema GNU. Come=E7aram por criar uma grande quantidade de ferramentas (compilador da linguagem c, parsers, etc) e paralelamente um kernel (HURD) para o sistema. Como n=E3o dispunham de recursos humanos suficientemente grandes e capazes, o kernel hurd tem demorado muito a ser feito. Entretanto, em in=EDcios da d=E9cada de 90, Linus Torvalds (CORREC=C7=C3O #2: =E9 Torvalds= e n=E3o Torvald) apresentou ao mundo uma vers=E3o muito alfa de um kernel que se veio a chamar Linux. Assim, com a associa=E7=E3o das ferramentas GNU ao kernel Linux, surgiu o chamado sistema GNU/Linux. CORREC=C7=C3O #3: Linus desenvolveu um kernel (parte b=E1sica de um siste= ma operativo) e n=E3o um sistema operativo. Com um kernel apenas n=E3o se faz nada, tal como com as ferramentas sem kernel para as executar n=E3o se faz nada. CORREC=C7=C3O #4: Estudos de mercado realizados recentemente mostraram que as diferentes distribui=E7=F5es de GNU/Linux t=EAm uma quota de cerca d= e 20% do mercado de servidores. Ora, como esta quota foi determinada para as c=F3pias de cd's vendidos, como cada cd pode ser utilizado para instalar o GNU/Linux em milhares de m=E1quinas e como na maior parte das vezes os cds = de=20 instala=E7=E3o podem ser copiados atrav=E9s da internet, =E9 muito prov=E1v= el que a quota de servidores baseados no GNU/Linux seja muito maior que 20%. O=20 GNU/Linux n=E3o =E9, portanto, um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es marginal. Alia= s, a t=EDtulo de exemplo, o RedHat 7.2 pode ser instalado em IA64. E o Windows e as suas aplica=E7=F5es? CORREC=C7=C3O #5: 4=BA e 5=BA par=E1grafos (inicia em "Veja-se" e termina= em "diante).".) do editorial. Aqui alega-se que h=E1 certos servi=E7os que n=E3o s=E3o necess=E1rios= no GNU/Linux, e que essa implica=E7=E3o ter reflexos negativos. Estes dois par=E1grafos n=E3o fazem o menor sentido. Provavelmente requisitos editoriais cortaram algumas palavras chave que explicariam o que se pretende. Contudo, o facto de n=E3o necessitar ter certos servi=E7os instalados n=E3o se reflecte negativamente mas sim positivamente. Para se t= er um servi=E7o de http (web server) n=E3o faz o menor sentido necessitar de RPC ou de SMB (remote procedure calls e sharing de ficheiros). Optar por n=E3o os instalar n=E3o s=F3 n=E3o tem reflexos negativos, como s=F3 tem re= flexos positivios (menos carga na m=E1quina, menos riscos de seguran=E7a, etc). A empresa onde trabalho tem provavelmente mais servidores com GNU/Linux do que com Solaris ou HP-UX... CORREC=C7=C3O #6: a oferta de forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux reflecte neste mom= ento a sua procura. Se mais empresas quisessem formar mais quadros neste sistema, a oferta de forma=E7=E3o imediatamente cresceria. =C9 preciso ver = que h=E1 que ter em conta que a maioria das empresas de forma=E7=E3o n=E3o quer arriscar muito em =E1reas com procura baixa, e por isso n=E3o e frequente ver forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux, mas h=E1 cada vez mais. CORREC=C7=C3O #7: a IBM (um enorme player) investiu mil milhoes de d=F3lar= es no GNU/Linux no ano passado. O investimento foi recuperado em menos de um a= no. O autor dessa iniciativa foi entao promovido a CEO. Sera que a IBM n=E3o = =E9 um player importante? Eu diria que sim... e a IBM at=E9 suporta o GNU/Linux no= s seus mainframes S/390. CORREC=C7=C3O #8: O acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 uma condi=E7=E3o necess= =E1ria, mas n=E3o suficiente para que um determinado software seja considerado livre. Para que o software seja considerado livre, h=E1 que respeitar quatro princ=EDpios: 1. poder correr o software para qualquer prop=F3sito 2. estudar o seu funcionamento e adapt=E1-lo =E0s suas necessidades (o a= cesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o) 3. distribuir c=F3pias para ajudar os seus vizinhos 4. distribuir c=F3pias melhoradas de forma a beneficiar toda a comunidad= e (o acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o). Com estes 4 princ=EDpios, o software livre tem crescido e aumentado o se= u desenvolvimento e assim atingindo o n=EDvel de maturidade que j=E1 tem d= esde h=E1 algum tempo!! CORREC=C7=C3O #9: o leque de aplica=E7=F5es dispon=EDveis para GNU/Linux = =E9 MUITO superior ao dispon=EDvel para MS Windows. Contudo, algumas aplica=E7=F3es (sobretudo ferramentas de office) est=E3o ainda em fases um tanto ou quant= o iniciais de maturidade. Por=E9m, estas ferramentas n=E3o tiveram nem os d= =F3lares da Microsoft, nem o mesmo tempo de desenvovimento. O que leva muita gente a fazer upgrades =E9 a incompatibilidade de formatos. E a incompatibilidade= de formatos =E9 que impede a aceita=E7=E3o do GNU/Linux. Quanto a aplica=E7=F5= es em rede... ainda a Microsoft n=E3o tinha uma stack TCP/IP pr=F3pria, e j=E1 ha= via servidores GNU/Linux on-line. CORREC=C7=C3O #10: n=E3o se deve usar o termo c=F3digo aberto, este termo = n=E3o est=E1 definido em lado nenhum nem tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3o,= e por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e distorcer o significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores. Uma prova disso =E9 o dito "c=F3digo aberto" (programa Shared Source) da Microsoft, no qual uma empresa que olhe para o c=F3digo providenciado pela Microsoft ficar=E1 imediatamente castrado nessa =E1rea cient=EDfica, ficand= o assim completamente impossibilitado de poder competir nessa =E1rea contra a Microsoft. Isto =E9 extremamente mau para as empresas que adiram a estes programas!! NOTA #1: o custo s=F3 por si do software tem um peso menor do que o que se lhe atribui. Tenho de concordar com Rudolfo Oliveira da Microsoft. Ser=E1 que a Microsoft providencia o seu software de forma a que os seus clientes tenham os poderes que podem ter com os 4 princ=EDpios do software livre? N=E3o. Pelo que se conclui que os clientes s=E3o muito mais respeita= dos pelos produtores de Software Livre do que pela Microsoft. Isso tem um peso bastante grande! Depois deste extenso email, apresento links onde pode obter mais informa=E7=F5es: http://www.ansol.org (Associa=E7=E3o Nacional para o SOftware Livre) http://www.fsf.org (Funda=E7=E3o para o Software Livre) http://www.linux.org (site do kernel Linux) Os melhores cumprimentos, Rui M. Seabra --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-jHPKIlJBMkrSAbDuacMM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8sf32o+C50no0+t4RAoOlAJ0WpT9J0pY/d9rs3BJDm9Z7lgTGQQCcCZOY Wuo7GQbV2J4uB7f3ms6gQas= =3J6o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jHPKIlJBMkrSAbDuacMM-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 8 23:58:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 8 22:58:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral](NOTA: ) =?iso-8859-15?q?Actualiza=E7=E3o=20da=20lista=20de?= software Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, Neste momento foi procedida a uma actualização da lista de software livre português. Mais 5 entradas foram introduzidas, e houve correcções e rectificações várias. A próxima fase será a de criação de uma secção de projectos participados. Creio que há pelo menos um projecto de referência de que existe um contribuinte de referência: O Klyx pelo António Abílio Matos. O Nuno Sucena escreveu-me que também participa no desenvolvimento do Abiword. No entanto desconheço o grau de empenhamento e contributo dele, o que me fez levantar a questão que de de seguida vos apresento... Preciso de ter um critério objectivo e claro para selecionar as entradas nesta secção de projectos participados por portugueses. Não quero desatar ás turras por alguém achar que devia estar lá, ou ser acusado de reizinho, autoritário, manipulador, proprietário ou qualquer outro adjectivo fascizante... : ) Propostas para o critério de entrada na secção de projectos livres participados? Os vossos comentários/opiniões/esclarecimentos, por favor. Um abraço, André Esteves From rleite arroba nocturno.org Tue Apr 9 00:43:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Mon Apr 8 23:43:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 In-Reply-To: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> References: <1018292185.19454.60.camel@roque> Message-ID: <1018305390.814.6.camel@localhost> --=-1imaSt7hXZva5rbchUb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 19:56, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Viva, >=20 > Tenciono mandar a seguinte carta para a Sem@na Informatica. > Alguem quer propor altera=E7=F5es? > Os elementos do To: s=E3o o juarezc@mail.fbento.pt e frocha@mail.fbento.p= t >=20 > vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv= vv >=20 > Gostaria de come=E7ar por vos parabenizar pelos artigos sobre o sistema > GNU/Linux que surgiram na edi=E7=E3o #593 da SI: parab=E9ns. >=20 (...)=20 (Desculpa o corte do texto Rui :-) mas =E9 s=F3 para n=E3o gerar um mail=20 grande para dizer uma coisa pequena.) >=20 > Os melhores cumprimentos, Rui M. Seabra >=20 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > Que acham? >=20 > Hugs, rms A =FAnica sugest=E3o que faria =E9 no sentido de n=E3o usar o esquema de n= =FAmerar as correc=E7=F5es e dar-lhe um in=EDcio normal de frase. A enumera=E7=E3o faz-me parecer a carta um pouco hostil. Claro... bem sei que isto s=F3 depende leitor. Se calhar o defeito =E9 meu :-) Quanto ao conte=FAdo... nada a apontar. Cumprimentos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-1imaSt7hXZva5rbchUb1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8shttzPGKuD122fYRApabAKCArP2bQjBdi4Oyw+EWZOzEXaODvACfVk0u qC6KHzrYYeCx3MWIW1JvR6Q= =tOkA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-1imaSt7hXZva5rbchUb1-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Tue Apr 9 01:16:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Tue Apr 9 00:16:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> --=-yx0LLEkP/JvjixwVX/iZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 20:47, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:02:06AM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: (...) >=20 > J=E1 agora, e quanto aos recibos. Acho que n=E3o =E9 necess=E1rio estar a= mandar > faz=EA-los numa gr=E1fica. Podem ser gerados por computador, mas se n=E3o= me > engano t=EAm de ter l=E1 escrito algo como "Processado por computador". N=E3o est=E1s enganado n=E3o senhor. Para al=E9m disso s=F3 precisa do cari= mbo da ANSOL para ser v=E1lido. O software que o gera =E9 que n=E3o sei se tem que obedecer a certas restri=E7=F5es.=20 Para as empresas penso que =E9 obrigat=F3rio ter um programa de factura=E7= =E3o. A =FAnica caracter=EDstica de verifica=E7=E3o obrigat=F3ria deve ser o prog= rama n=E3o possibilitar altera=E7=E3o de recibos/facturas. Mas facilmente se programa uma coisa que tire recibos/facturas se f=F4r mesmo necess=E1rio. > > Um outro assunto que gostaria de p=F4r =E0 discuss=E3o =E9 o das contas > > da associa=E7=E3o. Os relat=F3rios de contas t=EAm que ser p=FAblicos e > > apresentados nas AG. Mas para a contabilidade interna n=E3o =E9=20 > > aplic=E1vel tal exig=EAncia. Basicamente estou a falar de lan=E7amentos > > nos livros de contas.=20 >=20 > Isso =E9 importante. Quais s=E3o as desvantagens de tal ser p=FAblico? H=E1 desvantagens a apontar mas importa analisar vantagens reais. Vamos por partes: Sobre as vantagens: No fim do ano os lan=E7amentos que s=E3o feitos no dia-a-dia nas v=E1rias contas do raz=E3o s=E3o transportados para outras contas e mediante v=E1rias opera=E7=F5es v=E3o-se contruir os mapas do relat=F3rio de contas. Fica l=E1 tudo resumido. Como se v=EA a utilidade e relev=E2ncia da informa=E7=E3o interm=E9dia =E9 = residual (mesmo muito residual) e pode tornar-se um grande volume de informa=E7=E3o caso a associa=E7=E3o tenha uma actividade econ=F3mica moderada. Em suma, era ter trabalho para nada. Imaginem o que era a Sonae ou=20 outro grande grupo econ=F3mico publicar a contabilidade interna. Seria ter, talvez, um amontoado de folhas novo todos os dias que ningu=E9m ia ler. Sobre as desvantagens=20 Com o detalhe da informa=E7=E3o que se d=E1 pode-se dar o caso de ter que andar a explicar coisas que nem careciam de explica=E7=E3o. Imaginem o seguinte. Faz-se um registo X e depois chega-se =E0 conclus=E3o que se fez mal (coisa bem comum na contabilidade). Em seguida faz-se um lan=E7amento de rectifica=E7=E3o. No meio disto tudo aparece algu=E9m que, s=F3 porque caridosamente at=E9 abrimos a contabilidade interna, pergunta "Que =E9 este lan=E7amento aqui?" "Porque =E9 que se faz o lan=E7amento assim e n=E3o assado?" (...) Est=E3o a ver o esquema n=E3o? =C9 arranjar trabalho =E0 direc=E7=E3o para = nada. H=E1 pormenores menos importantes como o Rui Miguel apontou como algu=E9m discordar do valor de uma compra, ou da margem com que se vendeu aquilo ou de um desconto que se concede a um tipo que compra 1000 bon=E9s... Bottom line: eu acho uma perfeita patetice que, potencialmente, poder=E1 gerar uma quantidade enorme de trabalho! N=E3o =E9 coisa obrigat=F3ria e=20 ningu=E9m faz. E quem j=E1 trabalha com isso h=E1 mais tempo deve ter algum= a raz=E3o para n=E3o o fazer ;-) Cumprimentos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-yx0LLEkP/JvjixwVX/iZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8siNuzPGKuD122fYRAo01AJ9df3cPpp52TRMfWQGXZssZoIpRrgCfVZoE pt8dAt5OlzFlUVuve5cVVXE= =2LQU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-yx0LLEkP/JvjixwVX/iZ-- From jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt Tue Apr 9 09:54:01 2002 From: jamatos arroba novalis.fc.up.pt (Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos) Date: Tue Apr 9 08:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral](NOTA: ) =?iso-8859-15?q?Actualiza=E7=E3o=20da=20lista=20de?= software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204090856.55094.jamatos@novalis.fc.up.pt> On Monday 08 April 2002 22:54, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Caros membros da lista, > > Neste momento foi procedida a uma actualiza=E7=E3o da lista de software= livre > portugu=EAs. Mais 5 entradas foram introduzidas, e houve correc=E7=F5es= e > rectifica=E7=F5es v=E1rias. > > A pr=F3xima fase ser=E1 a de cria=E7=E3o de uma sec=E7=E3o de projectos= participados. Parece bastante razo=E1vel. > Creio que h=E1 pelo menos um projecto de refer=EAncia de que existe um > contribuinte de refer=EAncia: O Klyx pelo Ant=F3nio Ab=EDlio Matos. Com uma desculpa para todos os Ant=F3nios desta lista, mas eu n=E3o ten= ho cara=20 de Ant=F3nio. ;-) Sou Jos=E9 meu caro. :-) Nota igualmente importante, o klyx =E9 um projecto morto, que serviu co= mo=20 prova de conceito, para al=E9m do trabalho inicial do Mathias e do Kalle,= n=E3o=20 houve altera=E7=F5es seguintes. O projecto com o qual eu colaboro =E9 o LyX, que na pr=F3xima vers=E3o = de=20 desenvolvimento ter=E1 um frontend totalmente em kde (o novo klyx), assim= como=20 um outro em gnome e ainda um outro em xforms. [...] > Um abra=E7o, > > Andr=E9 Esteves --=20 Jos=E9 Ab=EDlio From miguel.vieira arroba iscte.pt Tue Apr 9 12:20:02 2002 From: miguel.vieira arroba iscte.pt (Miguel Vieira) Date: Tue Apr 9 11:20:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7a?= GPL em =?ISO-8859-1?Q?portug=FBes?= Message-ID: <3CB2B3A5.6050800@iscte.pt> Viva! Estou =E0 procura da Licen=E7a GPL em portug=FBes, se algu=E9m me puder a= judar,=20 agradecia imenso, cumprimentos, Miguel Vieira From villate arroba gnu.org Tue Apr 9 13:07:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Tue Apr 9 12:07:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DLicen=E7a_GPL_em_portug=FBes?= In-Reply-To: <3CB2B3A5.6050800@iscte.pt>; from miguel.vieira@iscte.pt on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:25:57AM +0100 References: <3CB2B3A5.6050800@iscte.pt> Message-ID: <20020409120621.G7464@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:25:57AM +0100, Miguel Vieira wrote: > Estou =E0 procura da Licen=E7a GPL em portug=FBes, se algu=E9m me puder= ajudar,=20 > agradecia imenso, http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#Translations Existe uma traduc=E7=E3o em portugu=EAs brasileiro, mas n=E3o em portugu=EA= s de Portugal. As tradu=E7=F5es devem ser aprovadas pela FSF e mesmo assim est= as s=E3o uma simples ajuda para interpretar a licen=E7a, pois a licen=E7a oficial = =E9 sempre a vers=E3o original em ingl=EAs. Jaime From ruben arroba nocturno.org Tue Apr 9 19:19:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Tue Apr 9 18:19:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-1?Q?Centen=E1rio?= da lista Message-ID: <20020409171748.GC29799@queen.null.nil> --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ol=E1, Apenas uma curiosidade. Reparei agora que atinjimos a barreira psicol=F3gica das 100 pessoas inscri= tas nesta lista. Ao todo s=E3o 112 emails inscritos, mas 12 deles t=EAm a entre= ga de mensagens desactivada, pelo que, se ningu=E9m estiver a receber a lista = em duplicado, temos uma centena de pessoas interessadas no software livre em Portugal. Um abra=E7o. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8syI8kNvNeN9nJYcRAgtPAKCJZUZWbJyssA+jk2l1W044Iw+I1ACgm/V7 3nqF8Psb0CQgdBQfwNeXM0A= =Q/WV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nmemrqcdn5VTmUEE-- From figueira arroba europe.com Tue Apr 9 19:38:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Tue Apr 9 18:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 (v2) In-Reply-To: <1018297846.20029.32.camel@roque> References: <1018297846.20029.32.camel@roque> Message-ID: <1018373512.466.9.camel@jung> Viva, On Mon, 2002-04-08 at 21:30, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Reformulacao contendo as altera=E7=F5es sugeridas pelo Mario Miranda. > http://www.ansol.org (Associa=E7=E3o Nacional para o SOftware Livre) > http://www.fsf.org (Funda=E7=E3o para o Software Livre) > http://www.linux.org (site do kernel Linux) Bah, "das distribui=E7=F5es de Linux". L=E1 porque l=E1 n=E3o usam o termo "GNU/Linux" no site n=E3o significa que seja s=F3 do kernel. At=E9 porque n= =E3o =E9. Tamb=E9m n=E3o exageremos. Proponho "(site sobre o GNU/Linux)" ou qualquer coisa assim. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From rms arroba 1407.org Tue Apr 9 21:33:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Tue Apr 9 20:33:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sem@na Informatica =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=BA?= 593 (v3) Message-ID: <1018376854.24895.23.camel@roque> --=-64wMXM7ikID679aNpfZZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mais uma (ultima?) versao, com a alteracao sugerida pelo Rui Leite. Vasco: sim, realmente nao era linux.org que eu queria, mas sim kernel.org. > Bah, "das distribui=E7=F5es de Linux". L=E1 porque l=E1 n=E3o usam o term= o > "GNU/Linux" no site n=E3o significa que seja s=F3 do kernel. At=E9 porque= n=E3o > =E9. O facto de eu saber que nao e so do kernel, e mais um argumento para os corrigir, dado que o seu publico alvo fica a pensar que todo o CD e feito p= elo Linus e os seus fieis ajudantes, nao tanto por falarem em apenas Linux mas = tambem (e particularmente por isso neste caso) por se exprimirem dessa forma! vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv= vv Viva, Gostaria de come=E7ar por vos felicitar pelos artigos sobre o sistema GNU/Linux que surgiram na edi=E7=E3o #593 da SI: parab=E9ns. Contudo, os artigos continham alguns erros factuais que conv=E9m que sejam corrigidos, para que possam ultrapassar a vossa qualidade habitual em futuras edi=E7=F5es. Primeiro de tudo, Linux n=E3o =E9 o =FAnico componente de um sistema opera= tivo, mas sim um kernel de um sistema operativo. Uma pequena base hist=F3rica (muito por alto): A meados dos anos 80 o h=E1bito instituido de partilhar programas=20 entre programadores e utilizadores come=E7ou a ser abandonado. Os=20 programas passaram a ser monopolizado atrav=E9s de licenciamentos danosos=20 para os consumidores. Um grupo de programadores, descontente com o rumo dos acontecimentos decidiu ent=E3o criar um sistema completamente livre,=20 o sistema GNU. Come=E7aram por criar uma grande quantidade de ferramentas (compilador da linguagem c, parsers, etc) e paralelamente um kernel (HURD) para o sistema. Como n=E3o dispunham de recursos humanos suficientemente grandes e capazes, o kernel hurd tem demorado muito a ser feito. Entretanto, em in=EDcios da d=E9cada de 90, Linus Torvalds (ATEN=C7=C3O que o apelido do L= inus =E9 Torvalds e n=E3o Torvald, como foi referido em todos os artigos) apresentou ao mundo uma vers=E3o muito alfa de um kernel que se veio a chamar Linux. Assim, com a associa=E7=E3o das ferramentas GNU ao kernel Linux, surgiu o chamado sistema GNU/Linux. O Linus desenvolveu um kernel (parte b=E1sica de um sistema operativo) e n=E3o um sistema operativo. Com um kernel apenas n=E3o se faz nada, tal como com as ferramentas sem kernel para as executar n=E3o se faz nada. Estudos de mercado realizados recentemente mostraram que as diferentes distribui=E7=F5es de GNU/Linux t=EAm uma quota de cerca de 20% do mercado d= e servidores. Ora, como esta quota foi determinada para as c=F3pias de cd's vendidos, como cada cd pode ser utilizado para instalar o GNU/Linux em milhares de m=E1quinas e como na maior parte das vezes os cds de instala=E7= =E3o podem ser copiados atrav=E9s da internet, =E9 muito prov=E1vel que a quota = de servidores baseados no GNU/Linux seja muito maior que 20%. O GNU/Linux n=E3= o =E9, portanto, um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es marginal. Alias, a t=EDtulo de= exemplo, o RedHat 7.2 pode ser instalado em IA64. E o Windows e as suas aplica=E7=F5= es? No 4=BA e no 5=BA par=E1grafo (inicia em "Veja-se" e termina em "diante).".) do editorial alega-se que h=E1 certos servi=E7os que n=E3o s= =E3o necess=E1rios no GNU/Linux, e que essa implica=E7=E3o ter reflexos negativo= s. Estes dois par=E1grafos n=E3o fazem o menor sentido. Provavelmente requisitos editoriais cortaram algumas palavras chave que explicariam o que se pretende. Contudo, o facto de n=E3o necessitar ter certos servi=E7os instalados n=E3o se reflecte negativamente mas sim positivamente. Para se t= er um servi=E7o de http (web server) n=E3o faz o menor sentido necessitar de RPC ou de SMB (remote procedure calls e sharing de ficheiros). Optar por n=E3o os instalar n=E3o s=F3 n=E3o tem reflexos negativos, como s=F3 tem re= flexos positivios (menos carga na m=E1quina, menos riscos de seguran=E7a, etc). A empresa onde trabalho tem provavelmente mais servidores com GNU/Linux do que com Solaris ou HP-UX... A oferta de forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux reflecte neste momento a sua procura.= Se mais empresas quisessem formar mais quadros neste sistema, a oferta de forma=E7=E3o imediatamente cresceria. =C9 preciso ver que h=E1 que ter em c= onta que a maioria das empresas de forma=E7=E3o n=E3o quer arriscar muito em =E1reas= com procura baixa, e por isso n=E3o e frequente ver forma=E7=E3o em GNU/Linux, = mas h=E1 cada vez mais. A IBM investiu mil milhoes de d=F3lares no GNU/Linux no ano passado. O investimento foi recuperado em menos de um ano e o autor dessa iniciativa f= oi entao promovido a CEO. Sera que a IBM n=E3o =E9 um player importante? Eu di= ria que sim... e a IBM at=E9 suporta o GNU/Linux nos seus mainframes S/390. O acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 uma condi=E7=E3o necess=E1ria, mas n=E3o suf= iciente para que um determinado software seja considerado livre. Para que o software seja considerado livre, h=E1 que respeitar quatro princ=EDpios: 1. poder correr o software para qualquer prop=F3sito 2. estudar o seu funcionamento e adapt=E1-lo =E0s suas necessidades (o a= cesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o) 3. distribuir c=F3pias para ajudar os seus vizinhos 4. distribuir c=F3pias melhoradas de forma a beneficiar toda a comunidad= e (o acesso ao c=F3digo fonte =E9 pr=E9-condi=E7=E3o). Com estes 4 princ=EDpios, o software livre tem crescido e aumentado o se= u desenvolvimento e assim atingindo o n=EDvel de maturidade que j=E1 tem d= esde h=E1 algum tempo!! O leque de aplica=E7=F5es dispon=EDveis para GNU/Linux =E9 MUITO superior a= o dispon=EDvel para MS Windows. Contudo, algumas aplica=E7=F3es (sobretudo ferramentas de office) est=E3o ainda em fases um tanto ou quanto iniciais de maturidade. Por=E9m, estas ferramentas n=E3o tiveram nem os d=F3lares da Microsoft, nem o mesmo tempo de desenvovimento. O que leva muita gente a fazer upgrades =E9 a incompatibilidade de formatos. E a incompatibilidade= de formatos =E9 que impede a aceita=E7=E3o do GNU/Linux. Quanto a aplica=E7=F5= es em rede... ainda a Microsoft n=E3o tinha uma stack TCP/IP pr=F3pria, e j=E1 ha= via servidores GNU/Linux on-line. N=E3o se deve usar o termo c=F3digo aberto, este termo n=E3o est=E1 definido em lado nenhum nem tem copyright sobre a sua defini=E7=E3o,= e por isso qualquer um lhe pode dar a sua interpreta=E7=E3o subjectiva e distorcer o significado que lhe queriam dar os seus inventores. Uma prova disso =E9 o dito "c=F3digo aberto" (programa Shared Source) da Microsoft, no qual uma empresa que olhe para o c=F3digo providenciado pela Microsoft ficar=E1 imediatamente castrado nessa =E1rea cient=EDfica, ficand= o assim completamente impossibilitado de poder competir nessa =E1rea contra a Microsoft. Isto =E9 extremamente mau para as empresas que adiram a estes programas!! Finalmente, o custo s=F3 por si do software tem um peso menor do que o que se lhe atribui. Tenho de concordar com Rudolfo Oliveira da Microsoft. Ser=E1 que a Microsoft providencia o seu software de forma a que os seus clientes tenham os poderes que podem ter com os 4 princ=EDpios do software livre? N=E3o. Pelo que se conclui que os clientes s=E3o muito mais respeita= dos pelos produtores de Software Livre do que pela Microsoft. Isso tem um peso bastante grande! Depois deste extenso email, apresento links onde pode obter mais informa=E7=F5es: http://www.ansol.org (Associa=E7=E3o Nacional para o SOftware Livre) http://www.fsf.org (Funda=E7=E3o para o Software Livre) http://www.kernel.org (site do kernel Linux) Os melhores cumprimentos, Rui M. Seabra ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-64wMXM7ikID679aNpfZZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8szKWo+C50no0+t4RAo1kAKCJ5Z3pZ1PC/FuBzlawTf1GO3ocxgCfaFpm z1vnTFAolqGoosGhzc1XQjc= =wBTJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-64wMXM7ikID679aNpfZZ-- From carlos.alfaro arroba clix.pt Wed Apr 10 00:04:02 2002 From: carlos.alfaro arroba clix.pt (Carlos Alfaro) Date: Tue Apr 9 23:04:02 2002 Subject: Sobre o LyX (Era: Re: [ANSOL-geral](NOTA: ) Actualização da lista de software) References: <200204090856.55094.jamatos@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <005c01c1e011$d4e185a0$7ea217c3@houston> > O projecto com o qual eu colaboro é o LyX, que na próxima versão de > desenvolvimento terá um frontend totalmente em kde (o novo klyx), assim como > um outro em gnome e ainda um outro em xforms. Não quero arranjar problemas, eu sei que isto é um pouco OT, sou só um simples utilizador se Software Livre que já teve vários problemas de dependências quando se quer fazer um ./configure. A nova versão do lyx terá também um frontend direccionado para o Gnome (glyx? ;), o que é óptimo pois a actual baseada em xforms já tem um visual "antiquado". O que eu aponto e peço, é que tenha a hipótese de ser compilado só com o Gtk+2.0, sem serem necessárias as imensas bibliotecas de apoio ao Gnome. O Gtk é muito bom e versátil por si só, ainda mais agora nesta nova versão, e como só uso KDE nem tenho o G. instalado. Ah e sim, isto pode parecer estranho, mas uso o KDE e programo com o Gtk, não porque não goste do QT, mas comecei há 2 anos e agora a inércia é muita ;-) Carlos Alfaro From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 03:15:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 02:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 00:10, Rui Leite wrote: > N=E3o est=E1s enganado n=E3o senhor. Para al=E9m disso s=F3 precisa do ca= rimbo > da ANSOL para ser v=E1lido. O software que o gera =E9 que n=E3o sei se > tem que obedecer a certas restri=E7=F5es.=20 Tem de ser propriet=E1rio. Ihihihih. [sobre as contas da ANSOL serem p=FAblicas] > H=E1 desvantagens a apontar mas importa analisar vantagens reais. Vamos > por partes: >=20 > Sobre as vantagens: >=20 > No fim do ano os lan=E7amentos que s=E3o feitos no dia-a-dia nas > v=E1rias contas do raz=E3o s=E3o transportados para outras contas > e mediante v=E1rias opera=E7=F5es v=E3o-se contruir os mapas do > relat=F3rio de contas. Fica l=E1 tudo resumido. O "nas v=E1rias contas do raz=E3o"?? N=E3o percebi nada do par=E1grafo. N=E3o queres desenvolver?... > Como se v=EA a utilidade e relev=E2ncia da informa=E7=E3o interm=E9dia = =E9 residual > (mesmo muito residual) e pode tornar-se um grande volume de informa=E7=E3= o > caso a associa=E7=E3o tenha uma actividade econ=F3mica moderada. Deve haver uma maneira de publicar automaticamente resumos mensais ou trimestrais sobre as movimenta=E7=F5es financeiras da ANSOL. N=E3o? > Sobre as desvantagens=20 >=20 > Com o detalhe da informa=E7=E3o que se d=E1 pode-se dar o caso de ter que > andar a explicar coisas que nem careciam de explica=E7=E3o. >=20 > Imaginem o seguinte. Faz-se um registo X e depois chega-se =E0 conclus=E3= o > que se fez mal (coisa bem comum na contabilidade). Em seguida faz-se um > lan=E7amento de rectifica=E7=E3o. >=20 > No meio disto tudo aparece algu=E9m que, s=F3 porque caridosamente at=E9 > abrimos a contabilidade interna, pergunta "Que =E9 este lan=E7amento aqui= ?" > "Porque =E9 que se faz o lan=E7amento assim e n=E3o assado?" (...) >=20 > Est=E3o a ver o esquema n=E3o? =C9 arranjar trabalho =E0 direc=E7=E3o par= a nada. A direc=E7=E3o s=F3 tem de responder perante o Conselho Fiscal e a Assemble= ia Geral. Serve apenas para as pessoas irem tomando conhecimento. > Bottom line: eu acho uma perfeita patetice que, potencialmente, poder=E1 > gerar uma quantidade enorme de trabalho! N=E3o =E9 coisa obrigat=F3ria e=20 > ningu=E9m faz. E quem j=E1 trabalha com isso h=E1 mais tempo deve ter alg= uma > raz=E3o para n=E3o o fazer ;-) Tens raz=E3o. Mais vale um resumo trimestral gerado *automaticamente* para saciar os mais c=E9pticos. N=E3o? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From rms arroba 1407.org Wed Apr 10 10:59:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Wed Apr 10 09:59:02 2002 Subject: Sobre o LyX (Era: Re: [ANSOL-geral](NOTA: ) =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Actualiza=E7=E3o?= da lista de software) In-Reply-To: <005c01c1e011$d4e185a0$7ea217c3@houston> References: <200204090856.55094.jamatos@novalis.fc.up.pt> <005c01c1e011$d4e185a0$7ea217c3@houston> Message-ID: <1018425235.26457.8.camel@roque> --=-+3PJdmY1pvOrTEmYwc2y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 22:57, Carlos Alfaro wrote: > A nova vers=E3o do lyx ter=E1 tamb=E9m um frontend direccionado para = o Gnome > (glyx? ;), o que =E9 =F3ptimo pois a actual baseada em xforms j=E1 tem um= visual > "antiquado". O que eu aponto e pe=E7o, =E9 que tenha a hip=F3tese de ser = compilado > s=F3 com o Gtk+2.0 deixa-os fazerem sobre o gnome, que nao tem mal nenhum. teoricamente nao deveria ser extremamente dificil ter um frontend gnome, outro gtk, outro xforms, outro qt, outro kde, etc. o AbiWord ter interface nativo em gtk, gnome, windoes, qnx, beos, macosx, etc. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-+3PJdmY1pvOrTEmYwc2y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8s++To+C50no0+t4RAh6gAKCYEh/nrGySWMqMnmF+Tt3nax2USgCgxFGB hx258s0plA3B/TDnjcDdOB4= =NXsP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-+3PJdmY1pvOrTEmYwc2y-- From ndantas arroba fe.up.pt Wed Apr 10 11:20:01 2002 From: ndantas arroba fe.up.pt (Nuno Dantas) Date: Wed Apr 10 10:20:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-15?Q?s=F3cios?= Message-ID: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> Como j=E1 somos alguns podemos come=E7ar a implementar uma Base de Dados = com=20 a informa=E7=E3o e contactos de todos s=F3cios. Eu proponho usar LDAP. Est=E3o de acordo? Mais ideias..... Nuno --=20 _____________________________________________________________ Nuno Filipe Fernandes Dantas - http://www.fe.up.pt/~ndantas F E U P - Faculdade de Engenharia da Universidade do Porto Laboratorio de Redes de comunica?ao - http://netlab.fe.up.pt E-mail : ndantas@fe.up.pt Tlf: 22 508 1521 _____________________________________________________________ From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 12:17:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 11:17:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-1?Q?Plano_de_ac=E7=E3o_imediato?= Message-ID: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> --FsscpQKzF/jJk6ya Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Viva, Pe=E7o desculpas por ter estado t=E3o ausente das listas, mas a seguir a assembleia tive alguns dias de muito trabalho e depois t=EAm sido tantas as mensagens a ler que n=E3o tenho conseguido acompanhar as discuss=F5es. Resp= ondo agora =E0s mensagens mais urgentes das que me estou a lembrar: 1- ACTA A acta =E9 muito urgente que seja escrita no livro de actas e assinada por = todos os membros presentes na AG. Sem isso o nosso tesoureiro n=E3o pode pedir no banco que seja autorizado a movimentar a conta. Como n=E3o me lembrei de entregar o livro de actas =E0 mesa da assembleia em Aveiro, o melhor a fazer agora =E9 que por favor Vitor compre um livro de actas e transcreva a acta. Depois veremos como fazer para todos assinarmos. Pede por favor uma factura a nome da ANSOL e depois descontamos-te do valor da j=F3ia. Acho que devemos ter uma =FAnica acta de toda a assembleia, e n=E3o duas co= mo est=E1 actualmente. E o come=E7o da acta deve ser muito mais expl=EDcito; algo ass= im: No dia X, pelas X horas, ... com a seguinte ordem de trabalhos: a) formaliza=E7=E3o da inscri=E7=E3o dos membros presentes b) informa=E7=F5es c) elei=E7=E3o dos =F3rg=E3os directivos etc. (tal qual como estava na convocat=F3ria) Estiveram presentes os seguintes s=F3cios ... (para obter a lista de s=F3= cios ver ponto 3 mais para baixo). Os presentes nomearam como director da assembleia a Jos=E9 Miguel Neves e= como secret=E1rio a Vitor Domingos. ... 2- TESOURARIA O Rui tem que combinar comigo uma forma de lhe entregar o cart=E3o de regis= to provis=F3rio e depois ir dar inicio de actividade nas finan=E7as; no dia qu= e lhe entregar o cart=E3o entrego-lhe tamb=E9m o dinheiro para pagar a multa. A r= az=E3o pela qual ainda n=E3o come=E7amos a receber os montantes da j=F3ia e quota = anual =E9 porque enquanto o Rui n=E3o poder movimentar a conta vai ser complicado and= ar a mexer com dinheiro da ANSOL; e enquanto n=E3o tiver fotoc=F3pia da acta n= =E3o pode movimentar a conta. Mas realmente quando tiver os recibos prontos imagino que pelo menos pode fazer dep=F3sitos. Acho que =E9 melhor decidirmos j=E1 que vamos pagar IVA, pois acho que deve= mos explorar a venda de t-shirts, e outros itens; tamb=E9m gostava come=E7ar a vender CD's de Debian massivamente em Portugal. No fim de semana comprei = um computador para o meu filho e foi frustrante n=E3o poder comprar junto com = ele os 4 CD's de bin=E1rios de Debian para poder eliminar os virus com que me f= oi entregue o computador. Tive que esperar at=E9 poder queimar os meus pr=F3pr= ios CD's. J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, Vob= is, etc nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a sugerir. = Mesmo que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale bem a pena. Preferia esperar a que o tesoureiro tenha recibos e possa movimentar a conta antes de anunciar no site as t-shirts, bon=E9s e CD's(?) que temos para ven= der ao p=FAblico.=20 3- INFORMA=C7=C3O SOBRE S=D3CIOs Parece-me muito boa ideia termos uma base de dados LDAP para os s=F3cios. J= =E1 copiei no servidor os ficheiros PostScript de inscri=E7=E3o. Est=E3o num a= =E1rea n=E3o vis=EDvel ao p=FAblico, mas vis=EDvel aos membros de ANSOL que tenham conta= no CVS (direct=F3rio $CVSROOT/socios). A informa=E7=E3o dos membros pode-se extrair facilmente; por exemplo para v= er os nomes de todos os s=F3cios: fgrep /Nome *.ps | sed 's/.*(//' | sed s'/).*//' O Nuno pode obter assim toda a informa=E7=E3o que precisar para o LDAP (com= bina com Ruben a instala=E7=E3o do LDAP em ansol.org). 4- CONCURSO LOGOTIPO Acho que a proposta do Jo=E3o, com as altera=E7=F5es j=E1 discutidas est=E1 pronta. Falta apenas decidirmos que pr=E9mio vamos oferecer antes de lan=E7= ar o an=FAncio. 5- LISTAS N=E3o acho neste momento justificado dividir a lista geral em outras. A men= os que algu=E9m tenha algo contra, vou por um limite do tamanho das mensagens = nas listas. Mensagens de 150 kb como o que enviou o Lopo n=E3o deveriam ser env= iadas as nossos 100 assinantes; =E9 prefer=EDvel um URL indicando onde encontrar = os ficheiros. Sugiro 60k como limite. 6- PROJECTOS "PORTUGUESES" Continuo contra fazer uma lista de software "portugu=EAs" o feito por "portugueses" (se calhar essa =E9 a raz=E3o pela qual os meus projectos for= am eliminados da lista :-) Prefiro software "com participa=E7=E3o de Portugal". Deveriam aparecer na l= ista unicamente projectos em que o Andr=E9 (ou um grupo que quiser ajudar) tenha= tido acesso ao c=F3digo fonte e conferido que de facto =E9 software livre (tem q= ue existir uma licen=E7a e estar bem aplicada) e que Portugal est=E1 envolvido= de alguma forma. Tenho que ir embora, mas vou pensar em outros assuntos que me escapam e j=E1 escreverei mais hoje =E0 tarde. Um abra=E7o, Jaime --FsscpQKzF/jJk6ya Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tBD4UI/TY7yTaDkRAgFsAKCf6FXtB+QUJnWhW9mIFKRhoo3kSgCeOXA6 NCkUjVS5lsvB6xs8PJpKOJc= =MVol -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FsscpQKzF/jJk6ya-- From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 12:54:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-15?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 11:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-15?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> Viva! On Wednesday 10 April 2002 10:16, Nuno Dantas wrote: > Como j=E1 somos alguns podemos come=E7ar a implementar uma Base de Dado= s com > a informa=E7=E3o e contactos de todos s=F3cios. Eu proponho usar LDAP. > Est=E3o de acordo? > Mais ideias..... Eu propunha colocar-se online o formul=E1rio para a ades=E3o de s=F3cios = e j=E1 agora=20 que se configurasse o Reply To: da ML para ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 13:43:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 12:43:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> Message-ID: <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> --=-0zMp2ia6iHI1HUU/Bt9a Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-D8e7J5II6gk+a+xOx3TM" --=-D8e7J5II6gk+a+xOx3TM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 02:09, Vasco Figueira wrote: > On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 00:10, Rui Leite wrote: > > N=E3o est=E1s enganado n=E3o senhor. Para al=E9m disso s=F3 precisa do = carimbo > > da ANSOL para ser v=E1lido. O software que o gera =E9 que n=E3o sei se > > tem que obedecer a certas restri=E7=F5es.=20 >=20 > Tem de ser propriet=E1rio. >=20 > Ihihihih. Temos que estudar bem isso. N=E3o faz sentido nenhum que n=E3o se possa automatizar isso sem recorrer a software livre. =C9 que com folha de c=E1lculo n=E3o se pode fazer recibos / facturas. Acho que por raz=F5es =F3bivas :-) > [sobre as contas da ANSOL serem p=FAblicas] > > H=E1 desvantagens a apontar mas importa analisar vantagens reais. Vamos > > por partes: > >=20 > > Sobre as vantagens: > >=20 > > No fim do ano os lan=E7amentos que s=E3o feitos no dia-a-dia nas > > v=E1rias contas do raz=E3o s=E3o transportados para outras contas > > e mediante v=E1rias opera=E7=F5es v=E3o-se contruir os mapas do > > relat=F3rio de contas. Fica l=E1 tudo resumido. >=20 > O "nas v=E1rias contas do raz=E3o"?? >=20 > N=E3o percebi nada do par=E1grafo. N=E3o queres desenvolver?... Desculpa pois o erro foi meu. Eu falei em raz=E3o como uma coisa que todas as pessoas conhecessem mas esqueci-me que n=E3o s=E3o obrigadas a conhecer. O raz=E3o =E9 um livro onde se registam lan=E7amentos contabil=EDsticos da empresa/associa=E7=E3o/qqcoisa. Para terem uma ideia do que =E9 envio um pequeno exemplo. =C9 um simples levantamento de dinheiro de um dep=F3sito e que fica na caixa da associa=E7=E3o. O exemplo n=E3o cumpre os requisitos todos mas d=E1 uma ideia do aspecto do raz=E3o. Al=E9m do (data e outros elementos) h=E1 uns pormenores em falta que n=E3o vale a pena explicar. > > Como se v=EA a utilidade e relev=E2ncia da informa=E7=E3o interm=E9dia = =E9 residual > > (mesmo muito residual) e pode tornar-se um grande volume de informa=E7= =E3o > > caso a associa=E7=E3o tenha uma actividade econ=F3mica moderada. >=20 > Deve haver uma maneira de publicar automaticamente resumos mensais ou > trimestrais sobre as movimenta=E7=F5es financeiras da ANSOL. N=E3o? H=E1. Com os tais programas propriet=E1rios que referiste. Esses geram os lan=E7amentos, fazem os balan=E7o e outros mapas tudo com uns "clicks" do=20 rato. Caso contr=E1rio =E9 =E0 m=E3o :-) =20 > > Bottom line: eu acho uma perfeita patetice que, potencialmente, poder= =E1 > > gerar uma quantidade enorme de trabalho! N=E3o =E9 coisa obrigat=F3ria = e=20 > > ningu=E9m faz. E quem j=E1 trabalha com isso h=E1 mais tempo deve ter a= lguma > > raz=E3o para n=E3o o fazer ;-) >=20 > Tens raz=E3o. Mais vale um resumo trimestral gerado *automaticamente* par= a > saciar os mais c=E9pticos. N=E3o? Se arranjarmos maneira de fazermos isso automaticamente n=E3o h=E1 problema= . Cumprimentos a todos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. 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<200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <1018443126.19767.31.camel@gandalf> Boas Eu s=F3 estou =E0 espera deste formul=E1rio para me inscrever. EJ On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 12:49, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Viva! >=20 > On Wednesday 10 April 2002 10:16, Nuno Dantas wrote: > > Como j=E1 somos alguns podemos come=E7ar a implementar uma Base de Dado= s com > > a informa=E7=E3o e contactos de todos s=F3cios. Eu proponho usar LDAP. > > Est=E3o de acordo? > > Mais ideias..... >=20 > Eu propunha colocar-se online o formul=E1rio para a ades=E3o de s=F3cios = e j=E1 agora=20 > que se configurasse o Reply To: da ML para ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org >=20 > Abra=E7o, > M=E1rio Gamito >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral From aife arroba netvisao.pt Wed Apr 10 13:57:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 12:57:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Not=EDcia=20sobre=20software=20livre=20no=20portal=20da?= AEP Message-ID: O João Neves falou com a AEP http://www.aeportugal.pt/Areas/Noticias/BaseNoticia.asp?Codigo=1572 From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 14:21:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 13:21:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1018440983.836.6.camel@localhost> --=-P5aTjWOGutOCys5JYT3E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 12:37, Rui Leite wrote: > Desculpa pois o erro foi meu. Eu falei em raz=E3o como uma coisa > que todas as pessoas conhecessem mas esqueci-me que n=E3o s=E3o > obrigadas a conhecer. O raz=E3o =E9 um livro onde se registam > lan=E7amentos contabil=EDsticos da empresa/associa=E7=E3o/qqcoisa. >=20 > Para terem uma ideia do que =E9 envio um pequeno exemplo. =C9 um > simples levantamento de dinheiro de um dep=F3sito e que fica > na caixa da associa=E7=E3o. >=20 > O exemplo n=E3o cumpre os requisitos todos mas d=E1 uma ideia do > aspecto do raz=E3o. Al=E9m do (data e outros elementos) h=E1 uns pormenor= es > em falta que n=E3o vale a pena explicar. Aqui fica outro pedido de desculpa pois o texto n=E3o corresponde =E0 verdade. O anexo exmplo.ps n=E3o retrata a situa=E7=E3o que descrevi. O ficheiro retrata o dep=F3sito de 100 euros no banco. A proveni=EAncia =E9= , aqui sem erro, o dinheiro em caixa da associa=E7=E3o.=20 Basicamente, era ao contr=E1rio. Eu =E9 que n=E3o prestei aten=E7=E3o ao qu= e estava a fazer :-) --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-P5aTjWOGutOCys5JYT3E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tC0XzPGKuD122fYRAoYZAKCAgk4792zaA4otVKHBnCUZeUku/QCeNLMK EtUMv2RtOmx2pd7DpW2qM/Q= =040M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-P5aTjWOGutOCys5JYT3E-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 14:27:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 13:27:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Not=EDcia=20sobre=20software=20livre=20no=20por tal=20da?= AEP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018441334.936.12.camel@localhost> --=-KwmMR81SVfEyENHbEgtn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 12:53, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > O Jo=E3o Neves falou com a AEP >=20 > http://www.aeportugal.pt/Areas/Noticias/BaseNoticia.asp?Codigo=3D1572 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral O texto n=E3o =E9 igual ao que saiu h=E1 uns tempos na revista "Vida Econ=F3mica"? C=E1 para mim algu=E9m anda a fazer copy+paste de artigos. A n=E3o ser que a revista seja da AEP. --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-KwmMR81SVfEyENHbEgtn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tC52zPGKuD122fYRAvJeAKCPYQcgE0ZqE7U/B+RTn8/K9TL5+wCfbp6b 3vCF8xNE8HJ+RE4UAhFptvU= =EEyR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KwmMR81SVfEyENHbEgtn-- From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Wed Apr 10 15:36:02 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Wed Apr 10 14:36:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <3CB43F03.17103F47@artenumerica.com> "Jaime E . Villate" wrote: >=20 > 5- LISTAS > N=E3o acho neste momento justificado dividir a lista geral em outras. A= menos > que algu=E9m tenha algo contra, vou por um limite do tamanho das mensag= ens nas > listas. Mensagens de 150 kb como o que enviou o Lopo n=E3o deveriam ser= enviadas > as nossos 100 assinantes; =E9 prefer=EDvel um URL indicando onde encont= rar os > ficheiros. Sugiro 60k como limite. Eu tenho vontade de propor que alem disso sejam banidas as mensagens em H= TML, e quase tenho vontade de propor que tambem sejam banidos os attachements! = Isto porque: 1- A razao custo/beneficio dessas facilidades parece ser muito ma' no uso= que ate' agora teve (ainda nao vi ninguem usar os attachements para algo real= mente util e insubstituivel, como seja a inclusao de files grandes comprimidos). 2- E' educativo: Nada como usar texto para escrever... texto! Radicalmente, Sebrosa From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Wed Apr 10 15:52:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Wed Apr 10 14:52:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?iso-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB442BF.C6B509DC@artenumerica.com> Rui Leite wrote: >=20 > =C9 que com folha de c=E1lculo n=E3o se pode fazer recibos / facturas. = Acho > que por raz=F5es =F3bivas :-) Tens a *certeza* disso? De fonte oficial? Qual e' a fonte? =20 Pergunto porque de facto nao sei. Tentei saber uma vez e fiquei com a id= eia de que o que dizes e' apenas um boato muito bem espalhado, mas nao investigu= ei ate' ao fim. Pensando em termos de registos em papel, quais sao os requisitos dos livr= os de recibos/facturas? Se qualquer tipografia puder fazer um, nada nos impede= de fazer a nossa "tipografia" com uma folha de calculo... Cumps., Sebrosa From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 15:55:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 14:55:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Lista de projectos open source/GPL portugueses Message-ID: <200204111551.11666.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Viva! Parece que est=E3o a construir uma lista de projectos open source / GPL=20 portugueses. Eu sei que est=E1 um bocado em vapourware, mas se quiserem acrescentar o = meu=20 http://schole.sourceforge.net , be my guest. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8taLd7rbuNNzNkCIRAhDMAJ9wcXWzup/xz9xvP3+Ix3tTZhpYugCfZooT plg+kgkYr/34jfnOaGl46AU=3D =3DU+37 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Wed Apr 10 16:00:02 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Wed Apr 10 15:00:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <3CB43F03.17103F47@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <3CB4448D.D9D10AFA@artenumerica.com> Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > > Eu tenho vontade de propor que alem disso sejam banidas as mensagens em HTML, e > quase tenho vontade de propor que tambem sejam banidos os attachements! Isto > porque: Ah!, pois, os atachements dao jeito para as assinaturas... Eu bem me queria parece que estas modernices ainda iam chatear! :^)) Menos radicalmente, Sebrosa From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 16:10:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 15:10:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?iso-8859-1?q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <3CB442BF.C6B509DC@artenumerica.com> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> <3CB442BF.C6B509DC@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <200204111605.04866.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ois! > Pensando em termos de registos em papel, quais sao os requisitos dos li= vros > de recibos/facturas? Se qualquer tipografia puder fazer um, nada nos > impede de fazer a nossa "tipografia" com uma folha de calculo... Podem fazer-se recibos "caseiros", desde que conste o n.=BA de contribuin= te, n.=BA=20 do registo da associa=E7=E3o, e leve um carimbo com assinatura(s) da dire= c=E7=E3o por=20 cima. Em princ=EDpio do presidente da ANSOL. Al=E9m daquelas coisas =F3bvias como data, n.=BA de contribuinte do clien= te, etc. E fica tudo ok. Mas consultem qualquer contabilista que ele esclarece. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8taYe7rbuNNzNkCIRAtkgAJ9XMP4lMbAps9U7NNRsICNN9OUxjACgnFkz 6auyslGZSGE9bf8iCeWhfkM=3D =3Dphqe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 16:18:02 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 15:18:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <3CB442BF.C6B509DC@artenumerica.com> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> <3CB442BF.C6B509DC@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <1018447977.805.11.camel@localhost> --=-uoSoiBOy2OtmZH/mjxzA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 14:48, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > Rui Leite wrote: > >=20 > > =C9 que com folha de c=E1lculo n=E3o se pode fazer recibos / facturas. = Acho > > que por raz=F5es =F3bivas :-) >=20 >=20 > Tens a *certeza* disso? De fonte oficial? Qual e' a fonte? =20 >=20 > Pergunto porque de facto nao sei. Tentei saber uma vez e fiquei com a id= eia de > que o que dizes e' apenas um boato muito bem espalhado, mas nao investigu= ei > ate' ao fim. >=20 > Pensando em termos de registos em papel, quais sao os requisitos dos livr= os de > recibos/facturas? Se qualquer tipografia puder fazer um, nada nos impede= de > fazer a nossa "tipografia" com uma folha de calculo... Isso =E9 que era bom :-) Nem todas as tipografias est=E3o autorizadas a fazer recibos e facturas. H=E1 uma lista produzida por decreto lei que divulga as tipografias autorizadas a produzir facturas e outros documentos de transporte.=20 O Informador Fiscal da 2=AA Quinzena de Fevereiro de 2002 apresenta, na =FAltima p=E1gina, uma lista de novas tipografias. Em rodap=E9 indica-se a legisla=E7=E3o a consultar para obter a lista das tipografias autorizadas anteriormente. Analogamente, deve tamb=E9m existir legisla=E7=E3o que regulamenta a produ= =E7=E3o de documentos semelhantes que seja feita na pr=F3pria organiza=E7=E3o atrav= =E9s de produtos inform=E1ticos. Cumprimentos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite --=-uoSoiBOy2OtmZH/mjxzA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tEhpzPGKuD122fYRAgFAAJ4gBeFh2VfQX1dr7ZWwgKCjm1tWtACeMd4t gxUxpm5fbqw0i4NM+pB59sc= =4Yv/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-uoSoiBOy2OtmZH/mjxzA-- From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Wed Apr 10 16:34:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Wed Apr 10 15:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <3CB43F03.17103F47@artenumerica.com> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <3CB43F03.17103F47@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020410142949.GC4053@artenumerica.com> * Jose' Sebrosa [2002-04-10 14:32 +0000]: > Eu tenho vontade de propor que alem disso sejam banidas as mensagens em HTML, e > quase tenho vontade de propor que tambem sejam banidos os attachements! Isto > porque: > > 1- A razao custo/beneficio dessas facilidades parece ser muito ma' no uso que > ate' agora teve (ainda nao vi ninguem usar os attachements para algo realmente > util e insubstituivel, como seja a inclusao de files grandes comprimidos). > > 2- E' educativo: Nada como usar texto para escrever... texto! HTML no email também sugeria que se evitasse. Especialmente quando é o único formato (sem texto simples equivalente a acompanhar), caso a banir ferozmente :-] Quanto aos attachments, de forma nenhuma bloqueá-los. De vez em quando, uma ou outra figura ir por email não é dramático. Nem toda a gente tem servidor WWW à mão para alojar o que quer mostrar. Mas há também os documentos em outros formatos: PS, PDF, ... Até os ficheiros TeX prefiro enviar/receber em attachment. E se alguém exagerar haverá sempre a "pressão social" para resolver o problema.. From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 10 18:01:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 10 17:01:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral](NOTA: ) Actualização da lista de software References: <200204090856.55094.jamatos@novalis.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <009701c1e0a8$32afe3c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> On Monday 08 April 2002 22:54, André Esteves wrote: > Caros membros da lista, > Neste momento foi procedida a uma actualização da lista de software livre > português. Mais 5 entradas foram introduzidas, e houve correcções e > rectificações várias. > A próxima fase será a de criação de uma secção de projectos participados. Boa. > Creio que há pelo menos um projecto de referência de que existe um > contribuinte de referência: O Klyx pelo António Abílio Matos. O Klyx está parado. Não será o Lyx? > O Nuno Sucena escreveu-me que também participa no desenvolvimento do Abiword. > No entanto desconheço o grau de empenhamento e contributo dele, o que me fez > levantar a questão que de de seguida vos apresento... > Preciso de ter um critério objectivo e claro para selecionar as entradas > nesta secção de projectos participados por portugueses. > Não quero desatar ás turras por alguém achar que devia estar lá, ou ser > acusado de reizinho, autoritário, manipulador, proprietário ou qualquer outro > adjectivo fascizante... : ) > Propostas para o critério de entrada na secção de projectos livres > participados? > Os vossos comentários/opiniões/esclarecimentos, por favor. > Um abraço, > André Esteves Ora bem! A questão da participação num projecto faz levantar algumas questões interessantes, sendo a principal a da definição do que é a colaboração num projecto de Software Livre. Se bem me lembro em quase todos os projectos temos pelo menos cinco áreas: 1. Análise e definição da estrutura do programa 2. Desenvolvimento (a programação da coisa própriamente dita) 3. Equipa de teste 4. Documentação 5. Localização do programa Todas as pessoas que trabalham numa destas cinco áreas são importantes e penso que tu estavas a reduzir tudo a uma mera listagem de programadores. Penso que se podia fazer a lista com vários campos: 1. Nome do Programa 2. Tipo de Programa (Office, WindowManager, Utilitário, Kernel, etc) 3. URL do programa 4. Nome do colaborador 5. Contacto (se ele quiser) 6. Área de Colaboração (uma das cinco mais acima) Só para te dar um exemplo: Eu sou o tradutor para Português de Portugal do: 1. phpAdsNew 2. Achievo 3. phProjekt 4. e de mais uns quantos... Mas não produzo uma linha de código, puro e duro. Isso não faz de mim um colaborador de projectos GPL? Pensa no assunto ;-) 1, Lopo From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 18:46:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 17:46:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Acta In-Reply-To: <20020407043435.GC4731@queen.null.nil> References: <20020406133742.5b1a8c39.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407043435.GC4731@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020410122429.7b93de53.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Sun, 7 Apr 2002 05:34:35 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Algu=E9m (acho que at=E9 foste tu) sugeriu criar uma p=E1gina s=F3 para= as > Assembleias Gerais, onde se colocaria todas as actas e documentos discu= tidos > e aprovados. Acho que seria uma boa ideia. Assim, o link que est=E1 na > p=E1gina principal e que aponta para a acta passava a apontar para esta > p=E1gina nova. O que acham? Isso seria o ideal! Assim, criaria-se uma pasta (pagina) com tudo o que foi discutido em reun= ioes ou AG. Desde documentos, fotos, imagens, etc et al ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 18:46:05 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 17:46:05 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Licença GPL em portugûes In-Reply-To: <20020409120621.G7464@fe.up.pt> References: <3CB2B3A5.6050800@iscte.pt> <20020409120621.G7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020410121551.074d7ef1.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Viva. Uma dos assuntos discutos da AG, foi mesmo a traducao juridica portuguesa= da licensa GPL. O problema e' arranjar juristas que queiram "contribuir" para o "mundo li= vre" ... On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 12:06:21 +0100 "Jaime E. Villate" wrote: > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:25:57AM +0100, Miguel Vieira wrote: > > Estou =E0 procura da Licen=E7a GPL em portug=FBes, se algu=E9m me pud= er ajudar,=20 > > agradecia imenso, >=20 > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#Translations >=20 > Existe uma traduc=E7=E3o em portugu=EAs brasileiro, mas n=E3o em portug= u=EAs de > Portugal. As tradu=E7=F5es devem ser aprovadas pela FSF e mesmo assim e= stas s=E3o > uma simples ajuda para interpretar a licen=E7a, pois a licen=E7a oficia= l =E9 sempre > a vers=E3o original em ingl=EAs. >=20 > Jaime >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 18:46:08 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 17:46:08 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso do chapéu GNU traz consequências sociais... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:35:00 +0100 Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Se calhar devia ter comprado a camisola... :) As duas coisas. Penso que existe mercado em portugal para nos (ansol) podermos vender mat= erial "geek". Pode ir desde o bone ANSoL, 'a t-shirt ANSoL, e todo o material da FSF e = GNU. Ps: "Algo" de algumas distros tambem encaixaria algum dinheiro.. Estou-me a lembrar de tshirts redhat ou suse... Agora, nao sei se "isto" vai contra os estatutos e objectivos da associac= ao. Podemos vender material ? .. Desde que seja com o intuito de o "lucro" re= verter a favor da associacao para contrabalanciar as contas (aka prejuizo= , ate' agora). Certo ? ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 18:46:12 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 17:46:12 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo Message-ID: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Multipart_Wed__10_Apr_2002_13:11:31_+0100_0818d6d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Viva. Peguei no regulamento do logotipo feito pelo Joao Fernandes e acrescentei-lhe alguns aspectos importantes, bem como um outro aspecto. Opinioes/comentarios/premios, precisam-se!! Segue em formato abw e rtf. ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." --Multipart_Wed__10_Apr_2002_13:11:31_+0100_0818d6d8 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="regulamento-vd-1-0.abw" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="regulamento-vd-1-0.abw" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PD94bWwgdmVyc2lvbj0iMS4wIj8+CjwhRE9DVFlQRSBhYml3b3JkIFBVQkxJQyAiLS8vQUJJU09V UkNFLy9EVEQgQVdNTCAxLjAgU3RyaWN0Ly9FTiIgImh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWJpc291cmNlLmNvbS9h d21sLmR0ZCI+CjxhYml3b3JkIHhtbG5zPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFiaXNvdXJjZS5jb20vYXdtbC5k dGQiIHhtbG5zOmF3bWw9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWJpc291cmNlLmNvbS9hd21sLmR0ZCIgeG1sbnM6 eGxpbms9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzE5OTkveGxpbmsiIHhtbG5zOnN2Zz0iaHR0cDovL3d3 dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciIHhtbG5zOmZvPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy8xOTk5L1hTTC9G b3JtYXQiIHhtbG5zOm1hdGg9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzE5OTgvTWF0aC9NYXRoTUwiIHht bG5zOmRjPSJodHRwOi8vcHVybC5vcmcvZGMvZWxlbWVudHMvMS4xLyIgdmVyc2lvbj0iMC45OS4z 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Message-ID: <20020410182841.25465f17.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Para quem quer ouvir a RH a falar da GPL ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 20:02:13 -0700 From: "Red Hat" To: vd@paradigma.co.pt Subject: Under the Brim | Red Hat | April 2002 THIS MONTH'S WEBCASTS --> Understanding the GNU General Public License The GNU General Public License (GPL) is the key to making open source software work. Software protected by the GPL allows others to copy, sell, and distribute the software, as long as the source code is included. Mark Webbink, Red Hat Senior Vice President and General Counsel, will explain the GPL and how it keeps open source software open. Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2001 Time: 2 p.m. EST (US) Speakers: Mark Webbink, Senior Vice President and General Counsel Register Now: http://redhat.rsc03.net/servlet/cc5?joQSURSVNKxiHjHKpnuHQJhQilV2VSW ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 19:37:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 18:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020410173624.GB30916@queen.null.nil> --xXmbgvnjoT4axfJE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:16:44AM +0100, Nuno Dantas wrote: > Como j=E1 somos alguns podemos come=E7ar a implementar uma Base de Dados = com=20 > a informa=E7=E3o e contactos de todos s=F3cios. Eu proponho usar LDAP. > Est=E3o de acordo? Acho que =E9 uma boa ideia. Conv=E9m estudar a [0] "Lei da Protec=E7=E3o do= s dados Pessoais" (Lei 67/98 de 26 de Outubro) para ter tudo direito. [0] http://www.cnpd.pt/Leis/lei_6798.htm --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --xXmbgvnjoT4axfJE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tHgYkNvNeN9nJYcRAjKjAJ41okAZjyfFRbiHIxZT8r4A6qQN3QCdHt/U VM3XwZ/+xeQKmjoHkJNkeNY= =PV+F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xXmbgvnjoT4axfJE-- From hnogueira arroba april.org Wed Apr 10 19:50:02 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 18:50:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-15?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <1018443126.19767.31.camel@gandalf> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> <1018443126.19767.31.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <3CB2866800063279@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) E tambem fazer o pagamento online ;) Hugo. From hnogueira arroba april.org Wed Apr 10 19:50:06 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 18:50:06 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DCenten=E1rio=20da?= lista In-Reply-To: <20020409171748.GC29799@queen.null.nil> References: <20020409171748.GC29799@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <3C965BC2004A062F@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Reparei agora que atinjimos a barreira psicol=F3gica das 100 pessoas > inscritas nesta lista. Ao todo s=E3o 112 emails inscritos, mas 12 deles= t=EAm a > entrega de mensagens desactivada, pelo que, se ningu=E9m estiver a rece= ber a > lista em duplicado, temos uma centena de pessoas interessadas no softwa= re > livre em Portugal. Tambem tinha reparado o aumento do numero de inscritos... tenho ums 200 m= ails da lista que ainda nao li ;) Mais de 100 pessoas =E9 muito... penso que a APRIL tem menos inscritos =E0= sua lista. Mas tambem h=E0 mais associa=E7oes (e listas) sobre o software livre (a A= FUL por exemplo). Mesmo assim, em rela=E7ao =E0 popula=E7ao de Portugal =E9 muito :-)) Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 19:53:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 18:53:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de acção imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:16:25 +0100 "Jaime E . Villate" wrote: =20 > Como n=E3o me lembrei de entregar o livro de actas =E0 mesa da assemble= ia em Aveiro, o melhor a fazer > agora =E9 que por favor Vitor compre um livro de actas e transcreva a > acta. Depois veremos como fazer para todos assinarmos. Pede por favor u= ma > factura a nome da ANSOL e depois descontamos-te do valor da j=F3ia. >=20 Eighk! A minha letra!! :| Vou ver o que se pode fazer...=20 No entanto ficam as minhas duvidas: - Pode-se comecar a escrever actas, sem o livro estar aberto ? - Procedimentos necessa'rios para se abrir uma acta ? ... > Acho que devemos ter uma =FAnica acta de toda a assembleia, e n=E3o dua= s como est=E1 > actualmente. E o come=E7o da acta deve ser muito mais expl=EDcito; algo= assim: E' um pouco complicado. Acho que houve materia suficiente e importante na acta preliminar (ou o q= ue lhe queiram chamar) para ser colocado em acta inicial (ou outro nome). > Acho que =E9 melhor decidirmos j=E1 que vamos pagar IVA, pois acho que = devemos Pagar IVA ?... de ?...=20 > J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, Vobis= , etc > nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a suger= ir. Mesmo > que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale b= em a > pena. Concordo plenamente! Contudo isto nao vem arrasar com o negocio do M.Gami= to ? ;) Agora, como poderemos nos fazer cd's massivamente ?.... > 3- INFORMA=C7=C3O SOBRE S=D3CIOs Nao sera' melhor proteger apenas a informacao de socios para membros da d= ireccao ?.. Nao va' alguma pessoa fazer-se socia para obter dados pessoais dos socios= existentes..=20 Eu sei que sou paranoico ... :| > 4- CONCURSO LOGOTIPO > Acho que a proposta do Jo=E3o, com as altera=E7=F5es j=E1 discutidas es= t=E1 > pronta. Falta apenas decidirmos que pr=E9mio vamos oferecer antes de la= n=E7ar o > an=FAncio. >=20 Prize money e' sempre bom.=20 Mas como nao temos, vamos ter de arranjar outra forma. Patrocinios ? Anyone ? Nao tou a ver um designer que ganhe, ficar contente com um bone gnu, uma = tshirt da fsf e meia duzia de autocolantes...=20 >=20 > 5- LISTAS Colocaria o limite a 60kb (tambem) e restringia apenas o envio para a ml = em campos de "TO" e "CC" como o Vasco fez para a ml da M.A. ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 19:55:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 18:55:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Lista de projectos open source/GPL portugueses In-Reply-To: <200204111551.11666.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204111551.11666.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410185003.09521e5d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Pelas minhas contas hoje e' dia 10...=20 Que tal tambem colocar a ml a enviar o email com o dia no servidor da ans= ol, inves de ser do cliente ? ... On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:51:06 +0100 M=E1rio Gamito wrote: ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 20:07:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:07:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAVISO:_O_uso_do_chap=E9u_GNU_traz_conseq?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?u=EAncias_sociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt>; from vd@paradigma.co.pt on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:28:21PM +0100 References: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:28:21PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > As duas coisas. > Penso que existe mercado em portugal para nos (ansol) podermos vender m= aterial "geek". >=20 > Pode ir desde o bone ANSoL, 'a t-shirt ANSoL, e todo o material da FSF = e > GNU. "ANSOL" e n=E3o ANSoL. > Ps: "Algo" de algumas distros tambem encaixaria algum dinheiro.. > Estou-me a lembrar de tshirts redhat ou suse... > Agora, nao sei se "isto" vai contra os estatutos e objectivos da associ= acao. > Podemos vender material ? .. Desde que seja com o intuito de o "lucro" > reverter a favor da associacao para contrabalanciar as contas (aka prej= uizo, > ate' agora). Certo ? Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois enquand= ra-se perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7=E3o do software = livre. Mas nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais como SUSE ou Redhat. Mel= hor Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... Jaime From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 20:14:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:14:02 2002 Subject: [Mesa AG]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1018462088.8251.1.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 18:48, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, Vobis= , etc > > nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a suger= ir. Mesmo > > que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale b= em a > > pena. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Concordo plenamente! Contudo isto nao vem arrasar com o negocio do M.Gami= to ? ;) > Agora, como poderemos nos fazer cd's massivamente ?.... Se calhar *com* o M=E1rio Gamito. Ele at=E9 fez men=E7=E3o que o objectivo = n=E3o era ganhar um lucro para al=E9m da justa retribui=E7=E3o do trabalho dispendido. M=E1rio? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 20:23:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:23:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso do =?ISO-8859-1?Q?chap=E9u?= GNU traz =?ISO-8859-1?Q?consequ=EAncias?= sociais... In-Reply-To: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <1018462596.8252.3.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:07, Jaime E. Villate wrote: > Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois enquand= ra-se > perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7=E3o do software = livre. Mas > nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais como SUSE ou Redhat. Mel= hor > Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... Porqu=EA? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 20:23:05 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:23:05 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:16:25AM +0100, Jaime E . Villate wrote: >=20 > 1- ACTA > A acta =E9 muito urgente que seja escrita no livro de actas e assinada po= r todos > os membros presentes na AG. Sem isso o nosso tesoureiro n=E3o pode pedir = no > banco que seja autorizado a movimentar a conta. Como n=E3o me lembrei de > entregar o livro de actas =E0 mesa da assembleia em Aveiro, o melhor a fa= zer > agora =E9 que por favor Vitor compre um livro de actas e transcreva a > acta. Depois veremos como fazer para todos assinarmos. Pede por favor uma > factura a nome da ANSOL e depois descontamos-te do valor da j=F3ia. O livro de actas que compraste pode servir para as reuni=F5es da Direc=E7= =E3o, por exemplo. Vitor, n=E3o transcrevas a(s) acta(s) antes de chegarmos a um consenso quanto =E0 redac=E7=E3o final.=20 > Acho que devemos ter uma =FAnica acta de toda a assembleia, e n=E3o duas = como est=E1 > actualmente.=20 Eu tamb=E9m preferia, mas acho que isso n=E3o =E9 poss=EDvel. A primeira ac= ta foi presidida por uma mesa tempor=E1ria, at=E9 =E0 elei=E7=E3o dos =F3rg=E3os s= ociais. Em seguida os =F3rg=E3os sociais tomaram posse imediatamente e a mesa foi substitu=EDda pela Mesa da Assembleia Geral eleita. As actas v=E3o ter de s= er assinadas por pessoas diferentes, logo n=E3o deve ser poss=EDvel fazer apen= as uma acta.=20 Ainda quanto =E0s assinaturas da primeira acta, acho que os membros da comiss=E3o instaladora a devem assinar, pois na altura eram as pessoas=20 que podiam obrigar a associa=E7=E3o segundo os estatutos. > E o come=E7o da acta deve ser muito mais expl=EDcito; algo assim: > No dia X, pelas X horas, ... com a seguinte ordem de trabalhos: > a) formaliza=E7=E3o da inscri=E7=E3o dos membros presentes > b) informa=E7=F5es > c) elei=E7=E3o dos =F3rg=E3os directivos > etc. (tal qual como estava na convocat=F3ria) > Estiveram presentes os seguintes s=F3cios ... (para obter a lista de s= =F3cios > ver ponto 3 mais para baixo). > Os presentes nomearam como director da assembleia a Jos=E9 Miguel Neves= e como > secret=E1rio a Vitor Domingos. ... Concordo, eu fa=E7o essas altera=E7=F5es no CVS se a Mesa da AG n=E3o tiver= nada contra. > 2- TESOURARIA > Mas realmente quando tiver os recibos prontos > imagino que pelo menos pode fazer dep=F3sitos. Em princ=EDpio qualquer pessoa pode fazer dep=F3sitos, desde que tenha o n=FAmero da conta. > Acho que =E9 melhor decidirmos j=E1 que vamos pagar IVA, pois acho que de= vemos > explorar a venda de t-shirts, e outros itens; tamb=E9m gostava come=E7ar > a vender CD's de Debian massivamente em Portugal. No fim de semana compre= i um > computador para o meu filho e foi frustrante n=E3o poder comprar junto co= m ele > os 4 CD's de bin=E1rios de Debian para poder eliminar os virus com que me= foi > entregue o computador. Tive que esperar at=E9 poder queimar os meus pr=F3= prios > CD's. J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, V= obis, etc > nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a sugerir= . Mesmo > que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale bem= a > pena. Tenho algumas d=FAvidas se essa actividade se enquadra nos objectivos da associa=E7=E3o. Em primeiro lugar, =E9 um trabalho que, embora =E0 primeira= vista possa parecer que n=E3o, tira muito tempo. Mas aqui, desde que existam volunt=E1rios para tratar das coisas est=E1 tudo bem. Por outro lado, isso parece-me ser uma actividade que n=E3o se enquadra muito bem num associa=E7= =E3o sem fins lucrativos mas mais numa empresa. N=E3o quero com isto dizer que a ANSOL n=E3o venda t-shirts, bon=E9s, (...)= , da pr=F3pria ANSOL, FSF e outras (desde que relacionadas com o software livre) de modo a angariar fundos, mas da=ED a ser fornecedor de produtos para a FNAC, Vobis e afins vai uma grande diferen=E7a. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tILOkNvNeN9nJYcRAv3GAKCO9BmS1gBAPdW2gKSbck8jcew+uQCfSEJi nSYr3fmsGZ5fly9ZzLESRy4= =7UlQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p2kqVDKq5asng8Dg-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 20:29:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas =?iso-8859-1?Q?da_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018440983.836.6.camel@localhost> References: <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> <1018440983.836.6.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20020410182754.GD30916@queen.null.nil> --J5MfuwkIyy7RmF4Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:16:23PM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: >=20 > Aqui fica outro pedido de desculpa pois o texto n=E3o corresponde =E0 > verdade. O anexo exmplo.ps n=E3o retrata a situa=E7=E3o que descrevi. > O ficheiro retrata o dep=F3sito de 100 euros no banco. A proveni=EAncia = =E9, > aqui sem erro, o dinheiro em caixa da associa=E7=E3o.=20 E tamb=E9m devias pedir desculpa por enviares um anexo t=E3o grande para uma lista. :) Agora que tens cabo j=E1 n=E3o te lembras como era no tempo do mo= dem... N=E3o leves a mal, eu tamb=E9m cometo esse pecado. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --J5MfuwkIyy7RmF4Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tIQqkNvNeN9nJYcRAhmbAJ0R1JvUPEdKsEixF2ae1wAck9v9QQCeMf8r Ug7OKUMVGMnSzu5NPq00mHI= =Eg7A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J5MfuwkIyy7RmF4Q-- From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 20:29:04 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:29:04 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1018463001.8251.7.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 12:37, Rui Leite wrote: > =C9 que com folha de c=E1lculo n=E3o se pode fazer recibos / facturas. Ac= ho > que por raz=F5es =F3bivas :-) N=E3o? > > Deve haver uma maneira de publicar automaticamente resumos mensais ou > > trimestrais sobre as movimenta=E7=F5es financeiras da ANSOL. N=E3o? >=20 > H=E1. Com os tais programas propriet=E1rios que referiste. Esses geram os > lan=E7amentos, fazem os balan=E7o e outros mapas tudo com uns "clicks" do= =20 > rato. Caso contr=E1rio =E9 =E0 m=E3o :-) Hum... =C0 m=E3o n=E3o! > > Tens raz=E3o. Mais vale um resumo trimestral gerado *automaticamente* p= ara > > saciar os mais c=E9pticos. N=E3o? >=20 > Se arranjarmos maneira de fazermos isso automaticamente n=E3o h=E1 proble= ma. www.gnucash.org www.gnome.org/gnome-office/ Gera uns reports bonitinhos. Com gr=E1ficos via Guppi e em html. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 20:40:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:40:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410183925.GE30916@queen.null.nil> --4Epv4kl9IRBfg3rk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:49:44PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: >=20 > Eu propunha colocar-se online o formul=E1rio para a ades=E3o de s=F3cios = e j=E1 agora=20 > que se configurasse o Reply To: da ML para ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org Quanto ao Reply-To:=20 Esse =E9 um daqueles assuntos que d=E1 para fazer uma flame war, estilo=20 emacs vs vi ou kde vs gnome. O mailman recomenda que n=E3o se coloque o reply-to pelas raz=F5es que encontras aqui: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Existe, no entanto, quem tenha a opini=E3o contr=E1ria: http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml =20 No Kmail n=E3o sei como se faz, mas no mutt d=E1 para indicar quais s=E3o as mailing-lists que subscrevo e depois ao fazer reply uso a tecla "L" quando quero responder para a lista, ou a "r" quando quero responder para o autor. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --4Epv4kl9IRBfg3rk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tIbdkNvNeN9nJYcRAuV9AJ9j7Cm1H+rM3Z/A/r6v5+HvPdVAjwCeLa63 z8//bPwz/hAmRjOjoT/E91A= =4Yvt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Epv4kl9IRBfg3rk-- From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 20:41:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:41:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]novo Changelog do site Message-ID: <1018463716.8252.10.camel@jung> Viva, Gerei o novo Changelog com o cvs2cl. J=E1 est=E1 no site. Para quem quiser saber: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 2002-04-09 14:20 villate * docs/acta-ag1.pt.xhtml: Completado o nome de Vitor Fonte. 2002-04-09 08:20 aife * slp.pt.xhtml: Correc=E7=E3o da entrdas do ircmtl e Ptlink ircd. Coloca=E7=E3o do estilo sl na tabela. 2002-04-09 08:18 aife * ansol.css: Introdu=E7=E3o do estilo slp para o padding sa segunda c=E9lula da lista slp. 2002-04-09 05:42 ruben * navigation.en.xsl, navigation.pt.xsl: Acrescentado aviso a informar que este ficheiro pode ser modificado. 2002-04-08 23:34 aife * navigation.pt.xsl: Introduzida a entrada para a lista de software livre portugu=EAs. 2002-04-08 22:44 aife * slp.pt.xhtml: coloca=E7=E3o do numero de projectos na lista. 2002-04-08 22:11 aife * slp.pt.xhtml:=20 corrigido endere=E7o de correio; introduzidas 5 novas entradas e corrigida 1 entrada 2002-04-06 13:30 aife * slp.pt.xhtml:=20 Cria=E7=E3o da p=E1gina slp - Software Livre Portugu=EAs 2002-04-06 13:20 aife * img/gnu_em_pt.jpg:=20 Introduzido logo do slp - Software Livre Portugu=EAs 2002-04-06 04:11 ruben * docs/: acta-ag1-pre.pt.xhtml, acta-ag1.pt.xhtml: Vers=E3o inicial da acta. 2002-04-05 17:06 vaf * contacto/contacto.pt.xhtml: apelido oliveira do jose matos 2002-04-05 16:44 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: minor updates 2002-04-05 16:29 vaf * Makefile: retirar o alvo links do alvo all; serviu s=F3 para uma vez. 2002-04-05 16:21 vaf * contacto/contacto.pt.xhtml: correc=E7=E3o ao email da mesa da assembleia 2002-04-04 08:28 vaf * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: reverter a mudan=E7a anterior. Conte=FAdo intocado. 2002-04-04 08:26 vaf * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: bug de merda 2002-04-04 08:24 vaf * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: correc=E7=E3o de bug, espero 2002-04-04 08:16 vaf * noticias/noticias.pt.xml: acrescento dos links na ultima noticia para o regulamento interno e para o plano de accao 2002-04-04 07:25 vaf * Makefile: acrescentar o target "links" ao target "all". 2002-04-04 07:19 vaf * noticias/noticias.pt.xml: acrescento da noticia da elei=E7=E3o dos org=E3os sociais 2002-04-04 07:15 vaf * contacto/contacto.pt.xhtml: nova p=E1gina de contacto. Sede, emails e org=E3os sociais. 2002-04-04 07:11 vaf * docs/acta-ag1.pt.xhtml: stub 2002-04-04 07:06 vaf * Makefile: altera=E7=E3o ao links: para acrescentar um index.html na directoria contacto 2002-04-04 07:03 vaf * navigation.pt.xsl: altera=E7=E3o do endere=E7o de contacto para webmaster@ansol.org entrada do menu "pr=F3ximas reuni=F5es" posta indefinida. o link "listas de correio" passa para a nova p=E1gina de contactos, onde tem l=E1 um link 2002-04-04 03:14 ruben * docs/reg_interno.pt.xhtml: Efectuadas as altera=E7=F5es votadas na Assembleia Geral. 2002-03-30 11:27 villate * docs/proposta-socio.ps: Vers=E3o PostScript criada directamente (e n=E3o a partir da vers=E3o Latex). 2002-03-29 20:08 ruben * docs/reg_interno.pt.xhtml: O pagamento inicial das quotas n=E3o =E9 propriamente "antecipado". 2002-03-29 14:02 villate * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: Mais uma ac=E7=E3o, proposta por Vitor Domingos. 2002-03-29 13:11 villate * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: Algumas gralhas corrigidas. 2002-03-29 13:09 villate * docs/plano-2002.pt.xhtml: Proposta de plano de ac=E7=E3o para 2002. 2002-03-29 04:17 ruben * docs/reg_interno.pt.xhtml: Primeira vers=E3o do Regulamento Interno. 2002-03-28 14:39 villate * docs/: estatutos.pt.xhtml, estatutos.pt.tex: Corrigido o n=FAmero do artigo 166 no artigo d=E9cimo s=E9timo. 2002-03-26 15:48 vaf * politica/formatos-livres.pt.xhtml: estilo 2002-03-26 15:23 vaf * politica/formatos-livres.pt.xhtml: estilo 2002-03-26 15:14 vaf * politica/formatos-livres.pt.xhtml: Hiato hist=F3rico 2002-03-26 13:31 vaf * politica/formatos-livres.pt.xhtml: o Acrescento de uns prot=F3tipos de par=E1grafos sugeridos pelo Carlos Baquero 2002-03-26 12:29 villate * docs/: proposta-socio.ps, proposta-socio.tex: Apaguei texto que estava a mais. 2002-03-26 12:28 villate * docs/: proposta-socio.ps, proposta-socio.tex: Algumas pequenas altera=E7=F5es. 2002-03-26 12:02 villate * docs/: proposta-socio.ps, proposta-socio.tex: Proposta para s=F3cio da ANSOL. 2002-03-25 14:05 ruben * docs/convocatoria-ag1.pt.xhtml: Acrescentado o n=FAmero da estrada nacional para quem vem de sul. 2002-03-21 17:46 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Evento de ourem 2002-03-21 01:28 vaf * politica/formatos-livres.pt.xhtml: o Primeira vers=E3o do documento principal do dossier sobre a obrigatoriedade de utiliza=E7=E3o de formatos livres para documentos publicos de institui=E7=F5es estatais. 2002-03-19 23:11 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Acrescntei o link para o artigo do Jo=E3o, especificamente. 2002-03-18 23:55 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o A mudan=E7a anterior ficou mal. Link para info sobre o eucd. 2002-03-18 23:53 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Mudan=E7a no link para info sobre o eucd. 2002-03-18 23:49 vaf * navigation.pt.xsl: o Pequena altera=E7=E3o no link das noticias. Fica mais bonito assim. 2002-03-18 23:38 vaf * filosofia/softwarelivre.pt.xhtml: o Correc=E7=E3o de um pequeno typo. 2002-03-18 23:27 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Mudan=E7a do email de figueira@europe.com para vasco.figueira@ansol.org 2002-03-18 23:24 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Acrescento da semana inform=E1tica do IST 2002-03-18 22:49 rmleite * navigation.pt.xsl: corrigida gralha na barra de navega=E7ao 2002-03-16 09:30 ruben * docs/convocatoria-ag1.pt.xhtml: A rotunda do mapa para quem vem de sul est=E1 marcada com A e n=E3o com B 2002-03-15 20:40 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Acrescento da hora do evento de Our=E9m 2002-03-15 20:38 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Correc=E7=E3o no link das patentes. 2002-03-15 20:30 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Correc=E7=E3o do link para informa=E7=F5es sobre patentes 2002-03-15 19:56 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Mais um minor update, nada de vis=EDvel. 2002-03-15 19:54 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Outro minor update 2002-03-15 19:51 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Minor update 2002-03-15 19:49 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Acrescento de um contacto para correc=E7=F5es e omiss=F5es.=18=18=03 2002-03-15 19:41 vaf * navigation.pt.xsl: o Acrescento da sec=E7=E3o "Eventos" no menu de navega=E7=E3o 2002-03-15 19:31 vaf * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: o Acrescentei alguns eventos (Our=E9m e Cantanhede) 2002-03-15 19:24 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: o Correc=E7=E3o m=EDnima do texto. 2002-03-15 19:22 vaf * navigation.pt.xsl: o Acrescentar sec=E7=F5es "Pol=EDtica" e "Eventos" ao menu de navega=E7=E3o. 2002-03-15 16:27 vaf * Makefile: o Faz=EA-lo criar links de index.html para o ficheiro desejado nas directorias eventos, politica e noticias. Estava s=F3 a / e /docs/ 2002-03-15 13:27 ruben * docs/doc.pt.xhtml: Acrescentada a acta da 3=AA reuni=E3o no ISCTE 2002-03-15 12:45 ruben * navigation.pt.xsl, docs/convocatoria-ag1.pt.xhtml, noticias/noticias.pt.xml: Convocat=F3ria para a 1=AA AG 2002-03-15 12:41 ruben * img/: ccca-norte.png, ccca-sul.png, ccca.jpg: Convocat=F3ria para a 1=AA AG 2002-03-15 10:52 ruben * noticias/noticias.pt.xml: Acrescentada not=EDcia com a acta da reuni=E3o no ISCTE 2002-03-14 04:18 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: pequena correc=E7=E3o est=E9tica ao t=EDtulo= . "On air", j=E1. 2002-03-14 04:09 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: Vers=E3o final. Est=E1 "no ar". 2002-03-14 03:20 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: Release Candidate 3. J=E1 deve estar sem erros. 2002-03-14 03:14 vaf * politica/politica.pt.xhtml: release candidate 2 "almost on air". 2002-03-14 02:50 vaf * politica/: contactos.txt, eucd.pt.xhtml, politica.pt.xhtml: Mudan=E7a de directorias. 1a release candidate para ir para "o ar". 2002-02-17 20:22 vaf * filosofia/fsandbusiness.pt.xhtml: Algumas pequenas correc=E7=F5es. Typos e coisinhas assim... 2002-02-08 02:20 rmartins * sobre/: contactos.en.xhtml, contactos.pt.xhtml: Algumas alteracoes 2002-02-08 02:19 rmartins * eventos/eventos.pt.xhtml: Adicionei a p=E1gina sobre eventos 2002-02-08 00:16 rmartins * sobre/: contactos.en.xhtml, contactos.pt.xhtml: Algumas alteracoes 2002-02-08 00:08 rmartins * sobre/contactos.pt.xhtml: Corrigi a formatacao 2002-02-08 00:00 rmartins * sobre/: contactos.pt.xhtml, contactos.pt.xhtml: Corrigi a formatacao 2002-02-07 23:55 rmartins * sobre/contactos.pt.xhtml: Corrigi a formatacao 2002-02-07 23:50 rmartins * sobre/: contactos.pt.xhtml, contactos.pt.xhtml: Corrigi a formatacao 2002-02-07 23:36 rmartins * sobre/contactos.pt.xhtml: Corrigi a formatacao 2002-02-07 23:34 rmartins * sobre/: contactos.en.xhtml, contactos.pt.xhtml: Adicionei as paginas com os contactos (pt/en) 2002-02-07 21:55 jneves * docs/acta3.pt.xhtml: Workaround para browsers que ainda n=E3o suportam o euro. 2002-02-06 23:28 jneves * docs/acta3.pt.xhtml: Corrigidos alguns erros de portugu=EAs. 2002-02-06 23:18 jneves * ansol.xsl: Charset voltou a iso-8859-1. 2002-02-06 23:17 jneves * docs/acta3.pt.xhtml: Corrigido problema do euro (outra vez). 2002-02-06 23:03 jneves * docs/acta3.pt.xhtml: Corrigido problema do euro. Acrescentada refer=EAncia =E0 discuss=E3o sobre s=F3cios que sejam pessoas colectivas. 2002-02-06 22:16 jneves * ansol.xsl: Mudei o charset usado para iso-8859-15. 2002-02-06 19:14 jneves * docs/acta3.pt.xhtml: Acrescentada acta da reuni=E3o de 2/2/2002. 2002-02-06 01:56 rmartins * filosofia/fsandbusiness.pt.xhtml: Corrigi um pequeno erro 2002-02-06 01:50 rmartins * filosofia/fsandbusiness.pt.xhtml: Adicionei a tradu=E7=E3o para Portugues do ficheiro fsandbusiness.en.xhtml 2002-02-01 16:36 villate * docs/reuniao020202.pt.xhtml: Acentos que faziam falta. 2002-02-01 16:33 villate * docs/reuniao020202.pt.xhtml: Como acceder ao ISCTE no dia da reuni=E3o. 2002-02-01 16:27 villate * docs/reuniao020202.pt.xhtml: Enlace =E0 p=E1gina com sugest=F5es de acesso ao ISCTE. 2002-02-01 16:25 villate * docs/reuniao020202.pt.xhtml: Enlace a o mapa de localiza=E7=E3o do ISCTE. 2002-01-30 23:27 jneves * Makefile, navigation.pt.xsl: Adicionado o link para a p=E1gina de not=EDcias e as not=EDcias na barra de navega=E7=E3o. 2002-01-30 23:04 jneves * Makefile.xsltproc: Actualizada o Makefile para o xsltproc 2002-01-30 22:40 jneves * Makefile, ansol.pt.xhtml: Tentativa de corrigir bug que n=E3o deixa gerar a p=E1gina principal. 2002-01-30 22:37 villate * ansol.css: Incluida a altera=E7=E3o do J.Neves na vers=E3o anterior e eliminada a fonte Verdana. 2002-01-30 22:37 jneves * ansol.pt.xhtml, noticias/noticias.pt.xml: Merge da vers=E3o nova do Jo=E3o com a do Jaime 2002-01-30 22:32 villate * navigation.en.xsl: Novo estilo, com o novo logotipo. 2002-01-30 22:29 villate * ansol.pt.xhtml, ansol.en.xhtml: Not=EDcia da convocat=F3ria da reuni=E3o do 2/2/02. 2002-01-30 22:27 villate * ansol.css, navigation.pt.xsl: Novo estilo, com o novo logotipo. 2002-01-30 22:25 villate * docs/reuniao020202.pt.xhtml: Informa=E7=E3o sobre a reuni=E3o do dia 2/2/02. 2002-01-30 22:23 villate * img/: ANSOL.png, ANSOL.ps, ANSOL.xcf: Logotipo com o Ant=EDlope e o Sol. 2002-01-30 20:54 jneves * Makefile: Retirado aviso do make ao refazer o site 2002-01-30 20:45 jneves * navigation.pt.xsl: Corrigido bug na tabela de navega=E7=E3o. 2002-01-30 20:44 jneves * Makefile: Adicionado sistema de not=EDcias. 2002-01-30 20:17 jneves * Makefile, ansol.css, ansol.pt.xhtml, navigation.pt.xsl, noticias/noticias.pt.xml, noticias/noticias.pt.xsl, noticias/noticias_barra.pt.xsl, noticias/noticias_recentes.pt.xsl: Adicionado sistema de not=EDcias. 2002-01-30 00:11 jneves * navigation.en.xsl: Installed new look for the english version 2002-01-29 23:45 jneves * navigation.pt.xsl: Melhorado aspecto da apresenta=E7=E3o das reuni=F5es 2002-01-29 23:43 jneves * navigation.pt.xsl: Acrescentei refer=EAncia =E0s pr=F3ximas reuni=F5es 2002-01-29 23:03 jneves * ansol.xsl: DOCTYPE estava errado. 2002-01-29 22:59 jneves * ansol.xsl: Mudado o doctype de strict para transitional devido a problemas com IE. 2002-01-29 22:10 jneves * ansol.css, ansol.en.xhtml, ansol.pt.xhtml, ansol.xsl, navigation.pt.xsl, template.en.xhtml, template.pt.xhtml, docs/acta.en.xhtml, docs/acta.pt.xhtml, docs/acta2.en.xhtml, docs/acta2.pt.xhtml, docs/associate.en.xhtml, docs/associate.pt.xhtml, docs/divulgacao.pt.xhtml, docs/doc.en.xhtml, docs/doc.pt.xhtml, docs/estatutos.en.xhtml, docs/estatutos.pt.xhtml, docs/estatutos_ato.pt.xhtml, docs/lancamento.en.xhtml, docs/lancamento.pt.xhtml, docs/manual.en.xhtml, docs/manual.pt.xhtml, docs/relatorio1.en.xhtml, docs/relatorio1.pt.xhtml, docs/vida-economica-2002-01-25.pt.xhtml, docs/imprensa/ArtigoJUP.pt.xhtml, docs/imprensa/fundacao.pt.xhtml, filosofia/fsandbusiness.en.xhtml, filosofia/softwarelivre.en.xhtml, filosofia/softwarelivre.pt.xhtml: Retiradas as refer=EAncias =E0s tradu=E7=F5es em cada documento (j=E1 n=E3o eram usadas). Instalado o nov= o look do site. Adicionado o artigo da Vida Econ=F3mica sobre a ANSOL. 2002-01-24 18:22 jneves * Makefile, Makefile.xsltproc, ansol.xsl, navigation.en.xsl, navigation.pt.xsl, tools/translate.sh: Detec=E7=E3o autom=E1tica de tradu=E7=F5es. Criado Makefile para xsltproc. 2002-01-19 01:33 ruben * ansol.en.xhtml, ansol.pt.xhtml: Not=EDcia do reconhecimento da ANSOL como Organiza=E7=E3o Associada da FSFE. 2002-01-18 13:41 villate * ansol.pt.xhtml: Enlace e noticia do comunicado de imprensa sobre a funda=E7=E3o de ANSOL. 2002-01-18 13:35 villate * ansol.en.xhtml: Havia um

a mais. 2002-01-18 13:32 villate * filosofia/: softwarelivre.en.xhtml, softwarelivre.pt.xhtml: Corrigida uma gralha em FSF 2002-01-18 13:30 villate * ansol.en.xhtml: Enlace para "What is Free Software?". 2002-01-18 13:28 villate * filosofia/: softwarelivre.en.xhtml, softwarelivre.pt.xhtml: Incluida a vers=E3o em ingl=EAs. 2002-01-18 13:07 villate * docs/associate.pt.xhtml: Inclui um apontador para a p=E1gina sobre a EUCD. 2002-01-18 13:06 villate * docs/associate.en.xhtml: Inclui um apontador =E0 p=E1gina sobre a EUCD. 2002-01-17 22:28 villate * ChangeLog: O cvs2cl faz um melhor trabalho do que o Emacs, para obter o ChangeLog. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 20:46:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:46:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018464023.8251.15.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:22, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > E o come=E7o da acta deve ser muito mais expl=EDcito; algo assim: > > No dia X, pelas X horas, ... com a seguinte ordem de trabalhos: > > a) formaliza=E7=E3o da inscri=E7=E3o dos membros presentes > > b) informa=E7=F5es > > c) elei=E7=E3o dos =F3rg=E3os directivos > > etc. (tal qual como estava na convocat=F3ria) > > Estiveram presentes os seguintes s=F3cios ... (para obter a lista de = s=F3cios > > ver ponto 3 mais para baixo). > > Os presentes nomearam como director da assembleia a Jos=E9 Miguel Nev= es e como > > secret=E1rio a Vitor Domingos. ... >=20 > Concordo, eu fa=E7o essas altera=E7=F5es no CVS se a Mesa da AG n=E3o tiv= er nada > contra. For=E7a. Est=E1 =E9 sujeita a aprova=E7=E3o posterior pela Mesa. :-) [venda de CDs] > Tenho algumas d=FAvidas se essa actividade se enquadra nos objectivos da > associa=E7=E3o. Em primeiro lugar, =E9 um trabalho que, embora =E0 primei= ra vista > possa parecer que n=E3o, tira muito tempo. Mas aqui, desde que existam > volunt=E1rios para tratar das coisas est=E1 tudo bem. Por outro lado, iss= o > parece-me ser uma actividade que n=E3o se enquadra muito bem num associa= =E7=E3o > sem fins lucrativos mas mais numa empresa. >=20 > N=E3o quero com isto dizer que a ANSOL n=E3o venda t-shirts, bon=E9s, (..= .), da > pr=F3pria ANSOL, FSF e outras (desde que relacionadas com o software livr= e) > de modo a angariar fundos, mas da=ED a ser fornecedor de produtos para a > FNAC, Vobis e afins vai uma grande diferen=E7a. Ok, ent=E3o a quest=E3o est=E1 nos moldes em que a coisa se faz. Realmente = n=E3o vale a pena estarmos n=F3s a ganhar uma margem m=EDnima para depois os fornecedores estarem a fazer margens maiores. A=ED se calhar concordo que uma venda ao p=FAblico, eventualmente com um desconto para s=F3cios, seria o melhor caminho a seguir, at=E9 prova em contr=E1rio. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 10 20:48:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 10 19:48:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva Vitor, Erro desculpável, mas que requer alteração, no ponto 3 ;-) 3.2 Formato de ficheiro jpeg ou png ou postscript. vvvvvvvvv PROPOSTA DE ALTERAÇÃO vvvvvvvvv 3.2. Sobre o formato de ficheiro final: 3.2.1. Tem de ser num formato que possa ser trabalhado como vectorial, tipo Adobe Illustrator (AI), Corel Exchange Format (CMX), alguns PostScript (por exemplo os produzidos pelo AI) ou outro do género, e que possa ser importado e manipulado pelo menos no Sketch - http://sketch.sourceforge.net - ou em outro software do género que esteja dentro dos pressupostos do Software Livre. 3.2.2. Tem de trazer as fontes TrueType usadas. 3.2.2.1 Alguns locais onde pode recolher fontes gratuitas: http://www.acidfonts.com/ http://www.1001freefonts.com http://www.larabiefonts.com http://www.acidcool.com 3.2.3. Tem de ser produzido de preferência com tabela de cores Pantone, Trumach ou CMYK. 3.2.4. Deve ter versão 4 cores, 2 cores e p&b. 3.2.5. O logotipo pode ter o tamanho de uma folha A4 (neste caso o múltiplo maior possível de 140x140 pixels). 3.2.5.1. Pode ter também os formatos correntes: logotipo, papel de carta, cartão, web logo, favicon (16x16). 3.2.6. O logotipo tem de ter uma versão140x140 pixels para ser colocado on-line para votação. 3.2.7. A proposta deve ser enviada, preferencialmente em CD, para com uma carta cedendo todos os direitos sobre o logotipo caso o mesmo ganhe o concurso. ^^^^^^^^ PROPOSTA DE ALTERAÇÃO ^^^^^^^^ Formatos JPEG, PNG ou outro formato bitmapped não é trabalhável para usos vários. Tem é de ter a possibilidade de ser maneável para que se possa converter para os formatos e tamanhos que a ANSOL entender e que sejam requeridos pelos fornecedores de serviços com que venha a trabalhar. Só assim podemos criar imagens para tipografia, autocolantes, faixas, t-shirts, bonés, internet, etc, etc, etc. De resto não tenho assim nada a apontar. Que tal se conseguissemos o patrocinio de uma empresa de PC's e se instalasse nesse PC-oferta somento o GNU/Linux (Debian) e outros programas de interesse para os Gráficos - Sketch, DVI, Quanta+, GIMP, etc. etc. etc. Era uma boa :-D 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vitor Domingos" To: "Ansol" Sent: Quarta-feira, 10 de Abril de 2002 13:11 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo Viva. Peguei no regulamento do logotipo feito pelo Joao Fernandes e acrescentei-lhe alguns aspectos importantes, bem como um outro aspecto. Opinioes/comentarios/premios, precisam-se!! Segue em formato abw e rtf. ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 21:00:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:00:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:48:41PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: >=20 > Colocaria o limite a 60kb (tambem) e restringia apenas o envio para a ml = em campos de "TO" e "CC" como o Vasco fez para a ml da M.A. A op=E7=E3o do To: e CC: est=E1 como dizes desde que a lista foi criada. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tItfkNvNeN9nJYcRAs32AJ4iuUSVawS7aKtcrBnrXaOUOu8pIwCfac6E TXV3Z3yPDsuDqPlNa+6zQyg= =thV2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7cm2iqirTL37Ot+N-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 10 21:07:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:07:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de acção imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Entao como e' o email da sitar passou, se .... From: "sitaar!COM" To: "Press Releases" Reply-To: sitaar-press-owner@yahoogrupos.com.br Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Press Release] O Software Livre nas Empresas -=20 Palestra P=FAblica Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:30:57 +0100 Sender: ansol-geral-admin@listas.ansol.org Organization: Sitaar - Sistemas de Inova=E7=E3o X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 ..... Se estivesse no CC, certamente que seria visto, certo ? On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:58:39 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: >=20 > A op=E7=E3o do To: e CC: est=E1 como dizes desde que a lista foi criada. >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 10 21:16:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:16:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos sócios Message-ID: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> Viva, > Eu propunha colocar-se online o formul=E1rio para a ades=E3o de s=F3cio= s e j=E1 > agora que se configurasse o Reply To: da ML para=20 > ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org A inscri=E7=E3o online tem apenas o problema do pagamento e da assinatura. N=E3o sei como =E9 que se pode dar a volta =E2 segunda, mas a primeira, b= asta n=E3o validar a inscri=E7=E3o at=E9 que se receba o pagamenmto por uma da= s tr=EAs vias poss=EDveis, julgo. N=E3o sei que m=E9todos legais de autentica=E7=E3o electr=F5nica s=E3o v=E1= lidos para este caso, mas julgo que se h=E1 de conseguir alguma coisa. Algu=E9m tem excertos legais que possam ser =FAteis? J=E1 agora, n=E3o h=E1 nenhum f=F3rum, ou coisa do g=E9nero sobre direito= onde se possa tirar umas d=FAvidas? S=F3 mesmo nos escrit=F3rios e com um cheque = =E0 frente, hum?... --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From rms arroba 1407.org Wed Apr 10 21:26:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:26:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020410183925.GE30916@queen.null.nil> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> <20020410183925.GE30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018462870.3905.2.camel@roque> --=-WLaSFG7P1WHEYrIA2Z5L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:39, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > No Kmail n=E3o sei como se faz, mas no mutt d=E1 para indicar quais s=E3o= as > mailing-lists que subscrevo e depois ao fazer reply uso a tecla "L" quand= o > quero responder para a lista, ou a "r" quando quero responder para o > autor. O evolution tambem suporta isto. so nao tem e botao, mas podes carregar na mensagem com o botao direito do rato e escolher reply to list... hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-WLaSFG7P1WHEYrIA2Z5L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tIKWo+C50no0+t4RAnLLAJ9bN03SgAuhUEyFyPXk1QR7kmTR8gCg1E8o 83AVECvEzTk8ke1+oTkfsvY= =4o87 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-WLaSFG7P1WHEYrIA2Z5L-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 21:29:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?Q?s?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> Message-ID: <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:09:11PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > A inscri=E7=E3o online tem apenas o problema do pagamento e da assinatura. > N=E3o sei como =E9 que se pode dar a volta =E2 segunda, mas a primeira, b= asta > n=E3o validar a inscri=E7=E3o at=E9 que se receba o pagamenmto por uma da= s tr=EAs > vias poss=EDveis, julgo. O m=E9todo que eu proponho =E9 criar um form em html que a pessoa preenche. Ap=F3s preenchido e submetido =E9 gerado uma p=E1gina com links para um fic= heiro postscript e outro PDF, gerados on-the-fly a partir dos dados preenchidos, que dever=E1 ser imprimido pelo candidato, assinado e colocado no correio junto com uma fotoc=F3pia do BI/passaporte. > N=E3o sei que m=E9todos legais de autentica=E7=E3o electr=F5nica s=E3o v= =E1lidos para > este caso, mas julgo que se h=E1 de conseguir alguma coisa. Algu=E9m tem > excertos legais que possam ser =FAteis? Acho que as =E1guas ainda est=E3o um pouco turvas para os lados da validade legal das assinaturas digitais. Para j=E1 =E9 melhor optar por m=E9todos ma= is tradicionais. > J=E1 agora, n=E3o h=E1 nenhum f=F3rum, ou coisa do g=E9nero sobre direito= onde se > possa tirar umas d=FAvidas? S=F3 mesmo nos escrit=F3rios e com um cheque = =E0 > frente, hum?... O Infocid tinha um f=F3rum onde se podia colocar perguntas (forum.infocid.p= t) mas aparentemente est=E1 "em remodela=E7=E3o". --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tJJUkNvNeN9nJYcRAkSiAJwOw/o4yhbjxM6ADJaSfv7RxnnorQCdHKV+ cdNL4Rh69Ywz5JZGmCCRL5I= =u35r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ-- From rms arroba 1407.org Wed Apr 10 21:30:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:30:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> Message-ID: <1018463101.3886.7.camel@roque> --=-wnPoR46l/UBGfWwJKic5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > N=E3o sei que m=E9todos legais de autentica=E7=E3o electr=F5nica s=E3o v= =E1lidos para > este caso, mas julgo que se h=E1 de conseguir alguma coisa. Algu=E9m tem > excertos legais que possam ser =FAteis? Vou ver se consigo algo daqui, mas tenho a sensacao de que... esta lei foi feita de forma a empresas lucrarem e nao a dar poder ao cidadao sobre autenticacao electronica, ou seja, parece-me que so sao reconhecidas CA's e em determinadas condicoes (possivelmente custosas). Como as CA's normalmente so passam certificados de um ano e a pagantes (nao e assim tao caro, mas tambem nao e barato)...=20 > J=E1 agora, n=E3o h=E1 nenhum f=F3rum, ou coisa do g=E9nero sobre direito= onde se > possa tirar umas d=FAvidas? S=F3 mesmo nos escrit=F3rios e com um cheque = =E0 > frente, hum?... Penso que ha, mas apenas de discussao e nada oficial. O melhor sera talvez perguntar no infocid... pode ser que respondam! Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-wnPoR46l/UBGfWwJKic5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tIN9o+C50no0+t4RAhg5AKDcf1wP3qIvxzEbJhzeeVe1qaIBpACggDBc hWxcvCK/zUxSgR8kgF9gBOg= =ipo+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-wnPoR46l/UBGfWwJKic5-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 21:37:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020410193607.GD324@queen.null.nil> --5p8PegU4iirBW1oA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:02:29PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Entao como e' o email da sitar passou, se .... >=20 > From: "sitaar!COM" > To: "Press Releases" > Reply-To: sitaar-press-owner@yahoogrupos.com.br > Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Press Release] O Software Livre nas Empresas -=20 > Palestra P=FAblica > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:30:57 +0100 > Sender: ansol-geral-admin@listas.ansol.org > Organization: Sitaar - Sistemas de Inova=E7=E3o > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 >=20 > ..... >=20 > Se estivesse no CC, certamente que seria visto, certo ? Certo.=20 O que aconteceu foi que essa mensagem foi enviada para modera=E7=E3o e=20 eu aprovei-a. Se devia ter aprovado ou n=E3o j=E1 =E9 discut=EDvel. Na altura limitei-me a olhar para o assunto, e como falava em software livre aprovei. Se calhar por ter a palavra "press release" n=E3o devia ter aprovado. Deixo isso ao vosso crit=E9rio, se n=E3o quiserem mais "press releases" digam, que eu passo a n=E3o aprovar. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --5p8PegU4iirBW1oA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tJQnkNvNeN9nJYcRApzRAKCKDVEIhIwb66dLBkYjR73Bed4cAQCghRea YwOjQoMzHsdEYnvpL8ENiA4= =BFsd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5p8PegU4iirBW1oA-- From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 21:56:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:56:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-1?q?Equil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204112150.58983.gamito@startux.org> Viva! > > Ps: "Algo" de algumas distros tambem encaixaria algum dinheiro.. > > Estou-me a lembrar de tshirts redhat ou suse... > > Agora, nao sei se "isto" vai contra os estatutos e objectivos da > > associacao. Podemos vender material ? .. Desde que seja com o intuito= de > > o "lucro" reverter a favor da associacao para contrabalanciar as cont= as > > (aka prejuizo, ate' agora). Certo ? > > Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois > enquandra-se perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7=E3= o do > software livre. Mas nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais co= mo SUSE > ou Redhat. Melhor Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... Desculpa, mas n=E3o estou de acordo. A SuSE, a Red Hat, a Mandrake e outras tantas empresas j=E1 fizeram tanto= *de=20 facto* (para n=E3o dizer mais) pelo software livre do que todas as palest= ras do=20 Stallman juntas. Porqu=EA esta avers=E3o ? Qual o mal de a ANSOL vender t-shirts da Red Hat ou ch=E1venas de leite c= om o=20 camale=E3o da SuSE ? O Linux e o dinheiro n=E3o s=E3o incompat=EDveis. Ou s=E3o ? N=E3o me par= ece. We live in the real world ya know ? Where there is more than what reaches the eye... Al=E9m disso o meu bon=E9 da SuSE j=E1 est=E1 um bocado co=E7ado e fica c= aro mandar vir=20 um da Alemanha :-) Tenhamos bom senso e equil=EDbrio. Abra=E7os, M=E1rio Gamito From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 10 21:57:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 10 20:57:01 2002 Subject: Sobre o SPAMMING [Era: Re: [ANSOL-geral] Plano de acção imediato] References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt><20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt><20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <018a01c1e0c9$375a5600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Caros amigos, Somente um esclarecimento breve. 1. O email ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org está registado na minha base de dados de "Press Releases". 2. O email que está activo na ANSOL é o meu pessoal (lopo.almeida@sitaar.com). 3. O que está activo na lista de "Press Releases" da SITAAR é o da empresa (sitaar@sitaar.com). 4. Os emails que seguem para a Lista "Ansol Geral" através do email NÃO-REGISTADO sitaar@sitaar.com têm de ser APROVADOS pelo Gestor da Lista. Assim, se o gestor achar que o conteúdo do nosso "Press Release" é importante para a comunidade então deixa passar, se achar que estou a exagerar e não tem nenhum interesse intrinseco não deixa passar. 5. Como é evidente pelo exposto acima NÃO HÁ NENHUM SPAMMING. 6. QUALQUER PESSOA PODE ENVIAR EMAILS PARA A LISTA. SE O ENDEREÇO NÃO ESTIVER REGISTADO O GESTOR CONTROLA O SEU CONTEÚDO E A SUA PROPAGAÇÃO. Caso contrário, tem outras formas de controlar as "gracinhas" eventuais. 7. Pensamos que esta é uma maneira muito melhor e mais responsável de fazer [Off Topics]. Eu sou, em principio, contra os [Off Topic], porque mesmo com boa vontade acabem sempre por gerar chatices e aumento de tráfego desnecessário. Esperando que estejam esclarecidos sobre eventuais emails da SITAAR que uma vez por outra aparecem nesta lista e que não haja nenhum equívoco doravante. Obrigado. Abraços e relaxem que a lista está bem entregue e é bem gerida. Lopo Lencastre de Almeida -- Sitaar - Sistemas de Inovação Apartado 410 * 2900-901 SETÚBAL mailto:lopo.almeida@sitaar.com mailto:sitaar@sitaar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vitor Domingos" To: Sent: Quarta-feira, 10 de Abril de 2002 20:02 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de acção imediato Entao como e' o email da sitar passou, se .... From: "sitaar!COM" To: "Press Releases" Reply-To: sitaar-press-owner@yahoogrupos.com.br Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Press Release] O Software Livre nas Empresas - Palestra Pública Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:30:57 +0100 Sender: ansol-geral-admin@listas.ansol.org Organization: Sitaar - Sistemas de Inovação X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 ..... Se estivesse no CC, certamente que seria visto, certo ? On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:58:39 +0100 Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > A opção do To: e CC: está como dizes desde que a lista foi criada. > ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 22:03:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 21:03:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Em =?iso-8859-1?q?rela=E7=E3o=20=E0=20inscri=E7=E3o=20online=20e=20=E0=20DB?= dos associados Message-ID: <200204112158.48184.gamito@startux.org> Viva! Em primeiro lugar penso que uma associa=E7=E3o tem... associados. Uma sociedade =E9 que tem s=F3cios. Isto n=E3o =E9 t=E3o dispiciendo como se possa julgar, pois =E9 o suficie= nte para=20 junto de muito boa gente se gerar confus=E3o. Adiante em rela=E7=E3o =E0 inscri=E7=E3o online... A minha opini=E3o =E9: formul=E1rio sob https primeiro, confirma=E7=E3o p= or mail depois=20 por parte do proponente ao qual =E9 de seguida enviado um c=F3digo tamb=E9= m por=20 mail. Com esse c=F3digo, envia cheque ou vale postal =E0 ordem da ANSOL. Mais pragm=E1tico, n=E3o h=E1. E nada de disponibilizar quaisquer dados online para al=E9m do nome (nem = o=20 endere=E7o de mail). Cumprimentos, M=E1rio Gamito From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 22:48:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 21:48:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:28:20PM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:28:20PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > O m=E9todo que eu proponho =E9 criar um form em html que a pessoa preen= che. > Ap=F3s preenchido e submetido =E9 gerado uma p=E1gina com links para um= ficheiro > postscript e outro PDF, gerados on-the-fly a partir dos dados preenchid= os, > que dever=E1 ser imprimido pelo candidato, assinado e colocado no corre= io > junto com uma fotoc=F3pia do BI/passaporte. =C9 mais ou menos o que tenho em mente, mas em vez de link para um fichei= ro, a pessoa recebe de volta no browser o ficheiro PostScript. Eu sei fazer iss= o facilmente mas faz falta tempo. Depois de a direc=E7=E3o receber o impresso assinado com fotoc=F3pia do B= I e conferir que tudo est=E1 em ordem, pedir=E1 ao candidato que envie o mont= ante da j=F3ia e uma vez feito isso a s=F3cio =E9 aceite. =20 > > J=E1 agora, n=E3o h=E1 nenhum f=F3rum, ou coisa do g=E9nero sobre dir= eito onde se > > possa tirar umas d=FAvidas? S=F3 mesmo nos escrit=F3rios e com um che= que =E0 > > frente, hum?... >=20 > O Infocid tinha um f=F3rum onde se podia colocar perguntas (forum.infoc= id.pt) > mas aparentemente est=E1 "em remodela=E7=E3o". Julgo que se criarmos uma base de dados de s=F3cios n=E3o estamos a viola= r nenhuma lei. Claro est=E1 que a informa=E7=E3o toda da base de dados n=E3o ser=E1= divulgada (por exemplo endere=E7os de correio); ser=E1 uma quest=E3o de definir que part= e =E9 p=FAblica. Jaime From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 23:19:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:19:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> Viva! > Julgo que se criarmos uma base de dados de s=F3cios n=E3o estamos a vio= lar > nenhuma lei. Claro est=E1 que a informa=E7=E3o toda da base de dados n=E3= o ser=E1 > divulgada (por exemplo endere=E7os de correio); ser=E1 uma quest=E3o de= definir > que parte =E9 p=FAblica. Aten=E7=E3o que h=E1 legisla=E7=E3o para este aspecto, nomeadamente mas n= =E3o s=F3, =E9=20 necess=E1rio garantir ao cidad=E3o o acesso a qualquer momento aos seus d= ados na=20 DB. Mas porque =E9 que a ANSOL n=E3o pega nuns quantos euros de quotas e n=E3= o marca uma=20 consulta com um advogado de Direito Administrativo/Comercial para tirar t= odas=20 as d=FAvidas ? Sim, os advogados tamb=E9m d=E3o consultas como os m=E9dicos. Tem-se d=FA= vidas,=20 marca-se uma consulta para se obterem respostas) Eu sei que n=E3o existem advogados free (as in speach and as in beer), ma= s ser=E1=20 imcompat=EDvel com o esp=EDrito da ANSOL ? =C9 que em vez de andar para aqui cada qual a mandar bitaites, resolviam-= se=20 todas as quest=F5es de uma vez. Cumprimentos, M=E1rio Gamito From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 23:22:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:22:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o_imediato?= In-Reply-To: <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:22:06PM +0100 References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:22:06PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Acho que devemos ter uma =FAnica acta de toda a assembleia, e n=E3o d= uas como est=E1 > > actualmente.=20 >=20 > Eu tamb=E9m preferia, mas acho que isso n=E3o =E9 poss=EDvel. A primeir= a acta foi > presidida por uma mesa tempor=E1ria, at=E9 =E0 elei=E7=E3o dos =F3rg=E3= os sociais. > Em seguida os =F3rg=E3os sociais tomaram posse imediatamente e a mesa f= oi > substitu=EDda pela Mesa da Assembleia Geral eleita. As actas v=E3o ter = de ser > assinadas por pessoas diferentes, logo n=E3o deve ser poss=EDvel fazer = apenas > uma acta.=20 Eu acho que as duas (?) actas devem ser assinadas pelos 24 membros que participamos. Desde quando o Jo=E3o come=E7ou com a parte de informa=E7=F5= es, j=E1 tinham sido preenchidas e aprovadas as propostas de adess=E3o (excepto al= gumas que s=F3 foram entregues de volta no fim, mas julgo que n=E3o vale a pena= fazer distin=E7=E3o por isso). Se fizemos duas assembleias, ent=E3o deveriamos ter feito duas convocat=F3= rias com duas ordens de trabalho. > Ainda quanto =E0s assinaturas da primeira acta, acho que os membros da > comiss=E3o instaladora a devem assinar, pois na altura eram as pessoas=20 > que podiam obrigar a associa=E7=E3o segundo os estatutos. Um exemplo: fazemos uma assembleia de cond=F3minos no nosso pr=E9dio. L=E1= para o fim da assembleia eu sou eleito novo administrador do condom=EDnio. Nesse= caso dirias que na primeira parte da assembleia eu n=E3o podia obrigar o condo= m=EDnio mas depois da elei=E7=E3o sim e por isso deveriam ser feitas duas actas? > > Acho que =E9 melhor decidirmos j=E1 que vamos pagar IVA, pois acho qu= e devemos > > explorar a venda de t-shirts, e outros itens; Esque=E7am esta parte. Na altura n=E3o tinha lido a discuss=E3o antiga so= bre o c=F3digo do IRS. > > tamb=E9m gostava come=E7ar > > a vender CD's de Debian massivamente em Portugal. ... > > J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, Vob= is, etc > > nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a sug= erir. Mesmo > > que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale= bem a > > pena. >=20 > Tenho algumas d=FAvidas se essa actividade se enquadra nos objectivos d= a > associa=E7=E3o. Em primeiro lugar, =E9 um trabalho que, embora =E0 prim= eira vista > possa parecer que n=E3o, tira muito tempo. Mas aqui, desde que existam > volunt=E1rios para tratar das coisas est=E1 tudo bem. Por outro lado, i= sso > parece-me ser uma actividade que n=E3o se enquadra muito bem num associ= a=E7=E3o > sem fins lucrativos mas mais numa empresa. N=E3o vejo porque n=E3o. A FSF vende os seus livros e se antes do boycot = =E0 Amazon, os livros eram anunciados l=E1. Os CD's podem ser vendidos sem fins lucrativos. Existe alguma empresa a distribuir CD's de Debian en Portugal= ? O M=E1rio Gamito est=E1 a fazer isso? at=E9 agora n=E3o vi CD's =E0 venda e= m parte nenhuma. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 23:28:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:28:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o_imediato?= In-Reply-To: <20020410193607.GD324@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:07PM +0100 References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410193607.GD324@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020410222803.Z7464@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:07PM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Se devia ter aprovado ou n=E3o j=E1 =E9 discut=EDvel. Na altura limitei= -me a > olhar para o assunto, e como falava em software livre aprovei. > Se calhar por ter a palavra "press release" n=E3o devia ter aprovado. > Deixo isso ao vosso crit=E9rio, se n=E3o quiserem mais "press releases" > digam, que eu passo a n=E3o aprovar. Eu sugeria fazer o que costumo fazer em outras listas que administro (des= culpa n=E3o ajudar nesta, mas mailman@nocturno n=E3o gosta nunca dos "cookies" = que ele pr=F3prio envia para mim) : Mensagens de n=E3o assinantes, em HTML e sem texto ASCII leg=EDvel s=E3o imediatamente rejeitados. Se o texto for leg=EDvel, leio rapidamente a me= nsagem antes de aprovar. Um "press realease" opode ser aceite ou n=E3o, a depen= der do seu conte=FAdo. Jaime From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 23:36:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:36:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1018474245.879.17.camel@localhost> --=-Jvxsghl1dpOTg7mFTWIe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 18:48, Vitor Domingos wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:16:25 +0100 > "Jaime E . Villate" wrote: > > Acho que =E9 melhor decidirmos j=E1 que vamos pagar IVA, pois acho que = devemos >=20 >=20 > Pagar IVA ?... de ?...=20 >=20 > > J=E1 est=E1 para sair Debian 3.0; seria bom conseguir que a FNAC, Vobis= , etc > > nos comprassem sets de CD's que depois venderiam por um pre=E7o a suger= ir. Mesmo > > que tenhamos perdas, o impacte que isso teria para a nossa causa vale b= em a > > pena. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Concordo plenamente! Contudo isto nao vem arrasar com o negocio do M.Gami= to ? ;) > Agora, como poderemos nos fazer cd's massivamente ?.... >=20 Este assunto do IVA n=E3o nos larga ;-) =C9 preciso lembrar que a isen=E7= =E3o s=F3 se aplica caso n=E3o haja distor=E7=F5es na concorre=EAncia. Ora se come= =E7armos a produzir CDs massivamente l=E1 vai esse pressuposto =E0s urtigas :-) --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-Jvxsghl1dpOTg7mFTWIe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tK8FzPGKuD122fYRAoFDAJ9ger5UVDVhQpy1QiERsYS/qenJ2gCeNCkL +1XA9Io3pVSAQlmEejY90DI= =FPQu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Jvxsghl1dpOTg7mFTWIe-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 23:37:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> --=-JgXqHikLjcZTRDC+VcJx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:22, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > > Tenho algumas d=FAvidas se essa actividade se enquadra nos objectivos= da > associa=E7=E3o. Em primeiro lugar, =E9 um trabalho que, embora =E0 primei= ra vista > possa parecer que n=E3o, tira muito tempo. Mas aqui, desde que existam > volunt=E1rios para tratar das coisas est=E1 tudo bem. Por outro lado, iss= o > parece-me ser uma actividade que n=E3o se enquadra muito bem num associa= =E7=E3o > sem fins lucrativos mas mais numa empresa. >=20 > N=E3o quero com isto dizer que a ANSOL n=E3o venda t-shirts, bon=E9s, (..= .), da > pr=F3pria ANSOL, FSF e outras (desde que relacionadas com o software livr= e) > de modo a angariar fundos, mas da=ED a ser fornecedor de produtos para a > FNAC, Vobis e afins vai uma grande diferen=E7a. Vai uma diferen=E7a muito grande e n=E3o sei se =E9 justific=E1vel. =C9 cer= to que a associa=E7=E3o precisa de fundos mas n=E3o precisa de nadar em dinheiro. Eu acho que a ideia inicial da AG era boa. Em confer=EAncias, feiras de inform=E1tica ou outros eventos em que a ANSOL participe vender alguns produtos relacionados com o SL.=20 Vamos n=E3o esquecer uma coisa. Isto =E9 uma associa=E7=E3o sem fins lucrat= ivos. Em princ=EDpio a principal fonte de receitas dever=E1 ser as quotas pagas pelos s=F3cios. --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-JgXqHikLjcZTRDC+VcJx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tK9nzPGKuD122fYRAiNCAJ9vNnNweLz3NFfIVeYie5zEInyUBACfUlsu +0166/Jn1tdHUE0mwAgnVzc= =eAwx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-JgXqHikLjcZTRDC+VcJx-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 23:40:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:40:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <20020410182754.GD30916@queen.null.nil> References: <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> <1018440983.836.6.camel@localhost> <20020410182754.GD30916@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <1018474502.896.22.camel@localhost> --=-Qwnr2jSmg5emLbgbapFd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:27, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:16:23PM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: > >=20 > > Aqui fica outro pedido de desculpa pois o texto n=E3o corresponde =E0 > > verdade. O anexo exmplo.ps n=E3o retrata a situa=E7=E3o que descrevi. > > O ficheiro retrata o dep=F3sito de 100 euros no banco. A proveni=EAncia= =E9, > > aqui sem erro, o dinheiro em caixa da associa=E7=E3o.=20 >=20 > E tamb=E9m devias pedir desculpa por enviares um anexo t=E3o grande para = uma > lista. :) Agora que tens cabo j=E1 n=E3o te lembras como era no tempo do = modem... > N=E3o leves a mal, eu tamb=E9m cometo esse pecado. :) >=20 > --=20 > R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org Ups. Olha que at=E9 agora n=E3o tinha reparado no tamanho do ficheiro. As minhas desculpas a todos os inscritos na lista. Cumprimentos, Rui Leite PS: Algumas pessoas j=E1 devem ter os cabelos em p=E9 por receber mails duplicados enviados por mim :-) =C9 que =E0s vezes esque=E7o-me de carregar no "Reply to list" do Evolution de que o Rui Seabra falou. ;-) --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-Qwnr2jSmg5emLbgbapFd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD4DBQA8tLAGzPGKuD122fYRAmVCAJitrIMT1wH8dd4vMjoUmcVYBA8PAJ9zR3vy RzGWtF1dYISM4vtiHRilKg== =9wFn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Qwnr2jSmg5emLbgbapFd-- From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 10 23:48:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:48:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Contas da =?ISO-8859-1?Q?associa=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <1018463001.8251.7.camel@jung> References: <20020328003547.GC14011@queen.null.nil> <20020405154116.5c697dba.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020405224614.GB4370@queen.null.nil> <20020406030048.7df9efb9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020407042829.GB4731@queen.null.nil> <1018260126.916.4.camel@localhost> <20020408194744.GC14149@queen.null.nil> <1018307438.814.41.camel@localhost> <1018400967.621.15.camel@jung> <1018438641.778.25.camel@localhost> <1018463001.8251.7.camel@jung> Message-ID: <1018474961.896.28.camel@localhost> --=-D2FZEQatbaAATnm5k+Uc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:23, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 12:37, Rui Leite wrote: > > =C9 que com folha de c=E1lculo n=E3o se pode fazer recibos / facturas. = Acho > > que por raz=F5es =F3bivas :-) >=20 > N=E3o? Bom... quanto a recibos est=E1 o caso encerrado. Est=E1 confirmado que se podem fazer =E0 m=E3o e t=EAm que levar carimbo da associa=E7=E3o e assinat= uras. Penso que isto poder=E1 abrir portas para a inscri=E7=E3o dos s=F3cios. Que= te ocorre Jaime? > > > Deve haver uma maneira de publicar automaticamente resumos mensais ou > > > trimestrais sobre as movimenta=E7=F5es financeiras da ANSOL. N=E3o? > >=20 > > H=E1. Com os tais programas propriet=E1rios que referiste. Esses geram = os > > lan=E7amentos, fazem os balan=E7o e outros mapas tudo com uns "clicks" = do=20 > > rato. Caso contr=E1rio =E9 =E0 m=E3o :-) >=20 > Hum... =C0 m=E3o n=E3o! >=20 > www.gnucash.org > www.gnome.org/gnome-office/ >=20 > Gera uns reports bonitinhos. Com gr=E1ficos via Guppi e em html. At=E9 gera mas para o que precisamos n=E3o d=E1 :-(=20 Em princ=EDpio vou proceder =E0 organiza=E7=E3o da contabilidade via gnumer= ic. Claro que se aparecer algu=E9m que se ofere=E7a para programar uma aplica= =E7=E3o de contabilidade maravilhosa e que fique a funcionar amanh=E3... tudo bem! Joking ;-) Sauda=E7=F5es! Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-D2FZEQatbaAATnm5k+Uc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tLHRzPGKuD122fYRAp5IAJ9xeCad0jjPxFXt/lS4Oj/A/hOqfACdH/Bo s/hRPWtouII2f5x0ILK9hTc= =ERFz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-D2FZEQatbaAATnm5k+Uc-- From hnogueira arroba april.org Wed Apr 10 23:49:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:49:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso =?iso-8859-15?q?do chap=E9u=20GNU?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20trazconsequ=EAncias sociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <1018462596.8252.3.camel@jung> References: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> <1018462596.8252.3.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:07, Jaime E. Villate wrote: > > Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois > > enquandra-se perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7= =E3o do > > software livre. Mas nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais = como > > SUSE ou Redhat. Melhor Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... > > Porqu=EA? Porque temos de manter independencia no discurso quanto a interesses come= rciais. As marcas comerciais tem interesses em dinheiro. Fazer refer=EAncia a mar= cas comerciais =E9 fazer publicidade para empresas que tem como ojectivo implicito de ga= nhar dinheiro. A ANSOL nao faz publicidade para tal ou tal marca para que a empresa que= a possui=20 fa=E7a dinheiro. A ANSOL =E9 independente quanto a isso.=20 Portanto so podemos fazer referencia a entidades nao comerciais porque na= o tem como objectivo de fazer dinheiro. Assim podemos fazer referencia a associa=E7oes e organ= ismos a fims nao lucrativos (Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ...). Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 23:53:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:53:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <200204112150.58983.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:51:37PM +0100 References: <20020410122821.204c679a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> <200204112150.58983.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410225250.B7464@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:51:37PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois > > enquandra-se perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7= =E3o do > > software livre. Mas nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais = como SUSE > > ou Redhat. Melhor Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... >=20 > Desculpa, mas n=E3o estou de acordo. > A SuSE, a Red Hat, a Mandrake e outras tantas empresas j=E1 fizeram tan= to *de=20 > facto* (para n=E3o dizer mais) pelo software livre do que todas as pale= stras > do Stallman juntas. Acho uma compara=E7=E3o bastante dif=EDcil de sustentar, mas de qualquer = forma concordo plenamente que essas 3 empresas est=E3o a ajudar muito =E0 causa= e n=E3o tenho nada contra. > Porqu=EA esta avers=E3o ? > Qual o mal de a ANSOL vender t-shirts da Red Hat ou ch=E1venas de leite= com o=20 > camale=E3o da SuSE ? > O Linux e o dinheiro n=E3o s=E3o incompat=EDveis. Ou s=E3o ? N=E3o me p= arece. Claro que s=E3o compat=EDveis; sempre tenho defendido isso. E n=E3o tenho= nenhuma avers=E3o contra nenhuma dessas empresas nem tenho falado mal delas. A minha opini=E3o tem a ver com o facto de que as 3 empresas j=E1 est=E3o= a por os seus produtos no mercado e julgo que n=E3o precisam da nossa ajuda nesse = campo. Mesmo que n=E3o estivessemos a falar da ANSOL mas de uma associa=E7=E3o q= ualquer como por exemplo o "grupo de dan=E7a de sal=E3o", uma associa=E7=E3o sem fins = lucrativos acho que n=E3o deve ajudar a vender os produtos de empresas com fins lucr= ativos. > We live in the real world ya know ? > Where there is more than what reaches the eye... >=20 > Al=E9m disso o meu bon=E9 da SuSE j=E1 est=E1 um bocado co=E7ado e fica= caro mandar vir> um da Alemanha :-) E achas que a ANSOL consegue fazer vir os bon=E9s da Alemanha mais f=E1ci= l do que tu? H=E1 que ser aceite como representante de vendas em Portugal; dever=E1= haver um estudo de mercado para decidir se =E9 um neg=F3cio fact=EDvel ou n=E3o= , etc. etc. (Welcome to the real world!) Um abra=E7o, Jaime P.S. Por n=E3o teres entregue o formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o e ter sa=ED= do da assembleia sem nos dar tempo de perguntar, ainda n=E3o fazes parte da lista de membros da ANSOL. From gamito arroba startux.org Wed Apr 10 23:55:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Eh =?iso-8859-1?q?l=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <1018474245.879.17.camel@localhost> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018474245.879.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200204112351.09275.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > Concordo plenamente! Contudo isto nao vem arrasar com o negocio do > > M.Gamito ? ;) Agora, como poderemos nos fazer cd's massivamente ?.... Qual neg=F3cio de qual M=E1rio Gamito ? O de passar horas com mais 2 bacanos a queimar CDs, a preencher 3 impress= os=20 por cada encomenda a secar nos correios para fazer o envio, a reenviar a=20 custo zero CDs que diziam n=E3o funcionar ? Um RH por 12 euros, incluindo portes e registo pagos ? Quando se forem informar das despesas que acarretam um envio por correio,= =20 depois digam-me alguma coisa. Posso dizer-te que em m=EAs e meio que durou a coisa no startux, tivemos = cerca=20 de trinta encomendas e um lucro liqu=EDdo (mas antes de impostos) de cerc= a de=20 25 contos. Pagou o trabalho e o tempo ? Fosga-se... n=E3o. Ainda bem que me arruinam o neg=F3cio. Como diz o povo, "vai-te embora lucro que me d=E1s perca" :-) BTW... o startux.org teve mesmo que deixar de vender as distros por outra= s=20 raz=F5es. De qualquer modo, o startux.org ter=E1 muito prazer em se associar =E0 ve= nda de=20 produtos por parte da ANSOL sem qualquer contrapartidas em modalidade a=20 conversar. Cumprimentos, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8thNK7rbuNNzNkCIRAkSXAJ9fOMdTcoCpS7Zk9k3A42Zjh3csvQCcCMjL orGHVjobqzvEb2U6li0r9Yc=3D =3D7U5T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 10 23:57:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 22:57:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DEm_rela=E7=E3o_=E0_inscri=E7=E3o_online_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_=E0_DB_dos_associados?= In-Reply-To: <200204112158.48184.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:58:48PM +0100 References: <200204112158.48184.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410225653.C7464@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:58:48PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Adiante em rela=E7=E3o =E0 inscri=E7=E3o online... > A minha opini=E3o =E9: formul=E1rio sob https primeiro, confirma=E7=E3o= por mail depois=20 > por parte do proponente ao qual =E9 de seguida enviado um c=F3digo tamb= =E9m por=20 > mail. >=20 > Com esse c=F3digo, envia cheque ou vale postal =E0 ordem da ANSOL. >=20 > Mais pragm=E1tico, n=E3o h=E1. >=20 > E nada de disponibilizar quaisquer dados online para al=E9m do nome (ne= m o=20 > endere=E7o de mail). A inscri=E7=E3o on-line ser=E1 optativa, para aqueles que a acharem mais = f=E1cil. Quem n=E3o estiver disposto a preencher os seus dados via web, pode sempre pre= encher em casa e enviar pelo correio normal o entregar pessoalmente a um membro = da direc=E7=E3o. Jaime From hnogueira arroba april.org Thu Apr 11 00:04:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:04:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Inscri=E7ao?= In-Reply-To: <20020410225250.B7464@fe.up.pt> References: <200204112150.58983.gamito@startux.org> <20020410225250.B7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <3CB1CD5000084491@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Ol=E0 Jaime ! Como vais ? > P.S. Por n=E3o teres entregue o formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o e ter sa=ED= do da > assembleia sem nos dar tempo de perguntar, ainda n=E3o fazes parte da > lista de membros da ANSOL. Que tenho eu que fazer para me inscrever oficialemente =E0 ANSOL ? ;-) D=E0-me noticias tuas ! Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. PS : =E9 dificil seguir o monte de mensagens da lista ;) From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 00:05:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:05:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DAVISO:_O_uso_do=3Fc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?hap=E9u_GNU_trazconsequ=EAncias=3Fsociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net>; from hnogueira@april.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:39:38PM +0200 References: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> <1018462596.8252.3.camel@jung> <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> Message-ID: <20020410230435.D7464@fe.up.pt> Muito bem explicado Hugo, obrigado. Hugo tem experi=EAncia na April onde existe a mesma regra. E todas as out= ras associa=E7=F5es sem fins lucrativos que conhe=E7o fazem o mesmo, igual qu= e organiza=E7=F5es governamentais que s=E3o supostas a pertencerem =E0 comu= nidade, sem poder beneficiar a uns e n=E3o a outros (a menos que esses "uns" tamb=E9m= estejam supostos a pertencerem =E0 comunidade). Jaime On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:39:38PM +0200, Hugo Nogueira wrote: > Porque temos de manter independencia no discurso quanto a interesses co= merciais. > As marcas comerciais tem interesses em dinheiro. Fazer refer=EAncia a m= arcas comerciais > =E9 fazer publicidade para empresas que tem como ojectivo implicito de = ganhar dinheiro. > A ANSOL nao faz publicidade para tal ou tal marca para que a empresa q= ue a possui=20 > fa=E7a dinheiro. A ANSOL =E9 independente quanto a isso.=20 > Portanto so podemos fazer referencia a entidades nao comerciais porque = nao tem como objectivo > de fazer dinheiro. Assim podemos fazer referencia a associa=E7oes e org= anismos a fims nao lucrativos > (Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ...). From hnogueira arroba april.org Thu Apr 11 00:10:02 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:10:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-15?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <3C881634007093A0@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Mas porque =E9 que a ANSOL n=E3o pega nuns quantos euros de quotas e n=E3= o marca > uma consulta com um advogado de Direito Administrativo/Comercial para t= irar > todas as d=FAvidas ? Sim, mas =E9 caro e a ANSOL, que se saiba, nao tem um capital imenso (ao = contrario). Acho bom : - apoiar-nos sobre o que existe de feito por outras associa=E7oes ; - informar-nos por nos mesmos (Internet, organismos publicos, pedindo a a= migos);=20 antes de ir queimar o dinheiro da ANSOL.=20 Poupan=E7a... > Sim, os advogados tamb=E9m d=E3o consultas como os m=E9dicos. Tem-se d=FA= vidas, > marca-se uma consulta para se obterem respostas) > Eu sei que n=E3o existem advogados free (as in speach and as in beer), = mas > ser=E1 imcompat=EDvel com o esp=EDrito da ANSOL ? Claro que nao. Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 00:14:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:14:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:15:16PM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410231314.E7464@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:15:16PM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Aten=E7=E3o que h=E1 legisla=E7=E3o para este aspecto, nomeadamente mas= n=E3o s=F3, =E9=20 > necess=E1rio garantir ao cidad=E3o o acesso a qualquer momento aos seus= dados na=20 > DB. Neste caso aos cidad=E3os em causa j=E1 foi entregue uma folha com todos = os seus dados tais como est=E3o no nosso arquivo, a qual foi pedida para ler com = aten=E7=E3o e assinar em sinal de aprova=E7=E3o. =20 > Mas porque =E9 que a ANSOL n=E3o pega nuns quantos euros de quotas e n=E3= o marca uma=20 > consulta com um advogado de Direito Administrativo/Comercial para tirar= todas=20 > as d=FAvidas ? Porque a ANSOL est=E1 neste momento em saldo negativo :-) > Sim, os advogados tamb=E9m d=E3o consultas como os m=E9dicos. Tem-se d=FA= vidas,=20 > marca-se uma consulta para se obterem respostas) > Eu sei que n=E3o existem advogados free (as in speach and as in beer), = mas ser=E1=20 > imcompat=EDvel com o esp=EDrito da ANSOL ? Tu j=E1 tinhas fujido da assembleia quando fal=E1mos da necessidade de arranjar um advogado? > =C9 que em vez de andar para aqui cada qual a mandar bitaites, resolvia= m-se=20 > todas as quest=F5es de uma vez. se os bitaites servirem para esclarecer alguma situa=E7=E3o, bem-vindos o= s bitaiteros (e os advogados que eu conhe=E7o tamb=E9m n=E3o costumam ter r= esposta para tudo) Jaime From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 00:16:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:16:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= Message-ID: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Viva! > P.S. Por n=E3o teres entregue o formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o e ter sa=ED= do da > assembleia sem nos dar tempo de perguntar, ainda n=E3o fazes parte da > lista de membros da ANSOL. Onde queres chegar ? Sei bem disso. N=E3o =E9 preciso lembrares-me que sou um participante de segunda nesta l= ista. Sou-o por op=E7=E3o. N=E3o entreguei o formul=E1rio porque n=E3o fiquei suficientemente esclarecido sobre algumas quest=F5es e espero ficar nesta lista. E disso depender=E1 se me torno associado ou n=E3o. Estou como est=E3o alguns 80 inscritos nesta lista. Nem mais nem menos. Mas se =E9 condi=E7=E3o sine qua non ser associado da ANSOL para particip= ar na=20 lista, espero(?) pelo formul=E1rio online. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito P. S.: Quanto a ter sa=EDdo sem dar hip=F3tese de perguntar, =E9 porque t= inha a=20 minha mulher e o meu filho =E0 minha espera e n=E3o ia interromper a tua interv= en=E7=E3o. S=F3 isso. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8thgU7rbuNNzNkCIRAuIzAJ0Vfjl+Bx/8/W4FB30OJt6nm5G5SQCaAmkF cuOrqieHbS01+MeUSzbM9S4=3D =3D4bUg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 00:18:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:18:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o_imediato?= In-Reply-To: <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost>; from rleite@nocturno.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:32:23PM +0100 References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20020410231720.F7464@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:32:23PM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: > Vamos n=E3o esquecer uma coisa. Isto =E9 uma associa=E7=E3o sem fins lu= crativos. > Em princ=EDpio a principal fonte de receitas dever=E1 ser as quotas pag= as > pelos s=F3cios. A minha proposta de distribui=E7=E3o de CD's n=E3o tem como fim angariar = fundos mas sim divulgar o software livre em Portugal. Jaime From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 00:21:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:21:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020410231314.E7464@fe.up.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> <20020410231314.E7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204120016.39781.gamito@startux.org> > Tu j=E1 tinhas fujido da assembleia quando fal=E1mos da necessidade de > arranjar um advogado? Bolas, cuidado com as palavras. N=C3O fugi da Assembleia. Porque =E9 que tinha que o fazer ? Onde est=E1 o benef=EDcio da d=FAvida ? Tinha a minha mulher e o meu filho =E0 espera (tinha sa=EDdo de casa =E0s= 9 da=20 manh=E3) e como estavas a expor a tua apresenta=E7=E3o com a sala em sil=EA= ncio,=20 achei melhor n=E3o pertubar e sa=ED de mansinho. Mais boa f=E9, please... M=E1rio Gamito From hnogueira arroba april.org Thu Apr 11 00:23:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:23:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso =?iso-8859-15?q?do=3Fchap=E9u=20GNU?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20trazconsequ=EAncias=3Fsociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <20020410230435.D7464@fe.up.pt> References: <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> <20020410230435.D7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <3CA3E89F00268BDC@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Le Jeudi 11 Avril 2002 00:04, Jaime E . Villate a =E9crit : > Muito bem explicado Hugo, obrigado. De nada ;) Desculpa por nao poder estar mais presente na lista :-p =E9 que h=E0 mais mensagems que antes e que parece-me que a lista se regula bem ;) Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From rleite arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 00:27:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:27:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <1018477296.1323.0.camel@localhost> --=-P3isEyYeLCUAUpjs28S3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 23:15, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > Viva! >=20 > > Julgo que se criarmos uma base de dados de s=F3cios n=E3o estamos a vio= lar > > nenhuma lei. Claro est=E1 que a informa=E7=E3o toda da base de dados n= =E3o ser=E1 > > divulgada (por exemplo endere=E7os de correio); ser=E1 uma quest=E3o de= definir > > que parte =E9 p=FAblica. >=20 > Aten=E7=E3o que h=E1 legisla=E7=E3o para este aspecto, nomeadamente mas n= =E3o s=F3, =E9=20 > necess=E1rio garantir ao cidad=E3o o acesso a qualquer momento aos seus d= ados na=20 > DB. >=20 > Mas porque =E9 que a ANSOL n=E3o pega nuns quantos euros de quotas e n=E3= o marca uma=20 > consulta com um advogado de Direito Administrativo/Comercial para tirar t= odas=20 > as d=FAvidas ? > Sim, os advogados tamb=E9m d=E3o consultas como os m=E9dicos. Tem-se d=FA= vidas,=20 > marca-se uma consulta para se obterem respostas) > Eu sei que n=E3o existem advogados free (as in speach and as in beer), ma= s ser=E1=20 > imcompat=EDvel com o esp=EDrito da ANSOL ? >=20 > =C9 que em vez de andar para aqui cada qual a mandar bitaites, resolviam-= se=20 > todas as quest=F5es de uma vez. Muito cuidado com isto.=20 No que toca a assuntos fiscais (a que o M=E1rio se refere como Direito Comercial presumo) as opini=F5es dos advogados s=E3o mesmo isso: opin=F5es. Se a ANSOL quer certezas escreve uma carta para o Director Geral das=20 Contribui=E7=F5es e Impostos. A carta serve de defesa das pr=E1ticas adopta= das enquanto n=E3o chegar resposta. Em jeito de conclus=E3o para estes assuntos fiscais eu digo que as coisas est=E3o todas mais ou menos esclarecidas e que se pode avan=E7ar com os procedimentos. A opini=E3o baseia-se em algumas abordagens a pessoas que=20 trabalham na =E1rea pelo que deve estar correcta.=20 Apenas o pormenor do IVA pode precisar de afina=E7=E3o mas isso =E9 coisa d= e dias. Ou de uma carta :-) Cumprimentos, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-P3isEyYeLCUAUpjs28S3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tLrwzPGKuD122fYRArysAJoDJgkec/HqZ/L2VpKe6pYUSMwOiQCeMwDk K3HKg/UdAVM0T0POxyQZ09s= =RdHJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-P3isEyYeLCUAUpjs28S3-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Thu Apr 11 00:28:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:28:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Advogados e incompatibilidades In-Reply-To: <3C881634007093A0@mail.libertysurf.net> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> <3C881634007093A0@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: Em Quarta, 10 de Abril de 2002 23:01, escreveste: > > Mas porque é que a ANSOL não pega nuns quantos euros de quotas e não > > marca uma consulta com um advogado de Direito Administrativo/Comercial > > para tirar todas as dúvidas ? > > Sim, mas é caro e a ANSOL, que se saiba, nao tem um capital imenso (ao > contrario). Acho bom : > - apoiar-nos sobre o que existe de feito por outras associaçoes ; > - informar-nos por nos mesmos (Internet, organismos publicos, pedindo a > amigos); antes de ir queimar o dinheiro da ANSOL. > Poupança... Será que haverá advogados simpatizantes? Existem associações de advogados pelas liberdades, direitos e garantias... Podemos inquirir nelas para determinar se há alguém interessado na temática... > > Sim, os advogados também dão consultas como os médicos. Tem-se dúvidas, > > marca-se uma consulta para se obterem respostas) > > Eu sei que não existem advogados free (as in speach and as in beer), mas > > será imcompatível com o espírito da ANSOL ? > > Claro que nao. Ainda há algum ingênuo na lista ? :) Pelo que vejo na ANSOL, aqui não há ingênuos e idealistas... Só pragmáticos com forte sentido de moral. E os ingênuos e idealistas também são importantes! Não se preocupem, com o tempo, vamos fazer muita coisa! um abraço, André Esteves From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 00:36:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:36:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204120016.39781.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:16:39AM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <200204112315.16240.gamito@startux.org> <20020410231314.E7464@fe.up.pt> <200204120016.39781.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410233531.H7464@fe.up.pt> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:16:39AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > Tu j=E1 tinhas fujido da assembleia quando fal=E1mos da necessidade d= e > > arranjar um advogado? >=20 > Bolas, cuidado com as palavras. N=C3O fugi da Assembleia. Desculpa, n=E3o estava a fazer nenhuma cr=EDtica nem por em quest=E3o nad= a. Realmente contigo tenho que medir muito bem as palavras que uso. Um abra=E7o, Jaime From hnogueira arroba april.org Thu Apr 11 00:37:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Advogados e incompatibilidades In-Reply-To: References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <3C881634007093A0@mail.libertysurf.net> Message-ID: <3C9BF4AE003ADDB3@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Ser=E1 que haver=E1 advogados simpatizantes? Existem associa=E7=F5es de= advogados > pelas liberdades, direitos e garantias... Podemos inquirir nelas para > determinar se h=E1 algu=E9m interessado na tem=E1tica... Boa ideia! Hugo. From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 00:48:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 10 23:48:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:11:13AM +0100 References: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020410234807.J7464@fe.up.pt> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 12:11:13AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > P.S. Por n=E3o teres entregue o formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o e ter s= a=EDdo da > > assembleia sem nos dar tempo de perguntar, ainda n=E3o fazes parte da > > lista de membros da ANSOL. >=20 > Onde queres chegar ? > Sei bem disso. Muito bem. S=F3 queria ter a certeza de que n=E3o tinhamos extraviado o t= eu formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o, pois apareces na lista de membros que vota= ram na elei=E7=E3o, que me foi entregue pelo Jo=E3o Neves. Aproveit=E9 a oportun= idade para referir esse facto, mas n=E3o tem nada a ver com a discuss=E3o anterior; = por isso o meu coment=E1rio foi inserido num P.S. no fim Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 11 01:18:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 11 00:18:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020410223623.A7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva, Agora já estou mais esclarecido. desculpa, mas eu não pude ir à AG ;-) Então isto não é um "Concurso para um Logotipo" e sim um "Concurso de Ideias". É bom que isso fique claro no regulamento. Para mim não estava e por isso achei necessário ser mais específico. Se depois o logotipo pode ser modificado (e será, pois quem o refizer fará alterações e/ou poderá ser decidido fazer alterações pela própria ANSOL) qual é o significado de dizer que foi "fulano" a criar o logotipo? A ideia final até pode nem ser a dele e sim uma "baseada" na dele. Será uma autoria "meio" falsa, não achas? É assim como que dizer que o phpAdsNew é da autoria dos mesmos que criaram o phpAds. O programa foi todo re-escrito e actualmente já pouco têm a vêr um com o outro, excluíndo a ideia inicial. Ou o que parece que vai ser o novo Klyx, que nada tem a vêr com o antigo. Mesmo o conceito de "Concurso de Ideias" (muito usado na arquitectura) implica que o autor da ideia vencedora depois efectua o desenvolvimento da mesma, por vezes com resultados algo distantes da ideia inicial que venceu o concurso. Por isso é bom que isto também fique bem explicito no Regulamento: o Autor da ideia vencedora pode vir ou não a efectuar as alterações que a ANSOL entender necessárias e nesse caso deve ser notificado para saber se pretende que o seu nome continue associado à ideia final ou não. Digo isto porque foram áreas (artes gráficas e arquitectura) a que estive ligado alguns anos e sei como funciona. Mesmo que os autores das ideias não sejam profissionais do ramo, o regulamento deve tentar sê-lo. Até para evitar chatices futuras, não achas? --------------------- Quanto às fontes TrueType... acho que os WindowManagers do Linux e o XFree86 já as "trabalham" bem e o MS Windows é essencialmente baseado nesse tipo de fontes. Se se pretende que os autores também possam ser oriundos de ambientes Microsoft então deve-se poder usar as TrueType, salvaguardando que sejam "Free" (i.e. sem "Royalties") e que as enviam em anexo ao trabalho. Eu enviei alguns links para sites que as têm às carradas. É só procurares. Tens ainda o FontFreak (http://www.fontfreak.com) que tem muitas fontes Freeware. E em http://www.top20free.com/fonts.html?1 tens uma lista de sites que têm fontes grátis. Grátis não quer dizer sem autor, ou que se lhes possa efectuar alterações e manter o nome da Font. Ou que se possa remover o nome do Autor. Ao contrário do software, se alterares a fonte "A" ela deixa de ser a font "A" e passa a ser uma variante da "A" ou uma nova "B". É assim que se consegue que existam tantas fontes parecidas, mas não iguais :-) As licenças da FSF também são uma forma de Copyright para proteger os interesses e vontade do autor do programa e/ou do autor de documentação. Mandei também para a Lista porque penso que era também essa a tua ideia: manter a conversa no grupo. Às vezes também me acontece que ao responder me esqueço que é preciso alterar o destinatário ;-) 1 abraço, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaime E . Villate" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Sent: Quarta-feira, 10 de Abril de 2002 22:36 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:37:57PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > > 3.2. Sobre o formato de ficheiro final: > 3.2.1. Tem de ser num formato que possa ser trabalhado como vectorial, tipo > Adobe Illustrator (AI), Corel Exchange Format (CMX), alguns PostScript (por > exemplo os produzidos pelo AI) ou outro do género, e que possa ser > importado e manipulado pelo menos no Sketch - > http://sketch.sourceforge.net - ou em outro software do género que esteja > dentro dos pressupostos do Software Livre. Não foi isso que ficou combinado na assembleia. O logotipo ganhador vai ser simplesmente uma "ideia" que a ANSOL vai reinterpretar à sua maneira. Se for tão complicada que não pode ser reproduzida por nós próprios, então é melhor escolher outra mais simples. > 3.2.2. Tem de trazer as fontes TrueType usadas. Não. Nós é que vamos decidir que fonte é que vamos usar (ja agorá, existe alguma fonte TrueType livre? eu prefiro as fontes "PostScript Type 1") > 3.2.3. Tem de ser produzido de preferência com tabela de cores Pantone, > Trumach ou CMYK. > 3.2.4. Deve ter versão 4 cores, 2 cores e p&b. Tambén não queremos que seja o "artista" a impôr-nos as cores que temos que usar. Isto foi discutido na assembleia. > 3.2.5. O logotipo pode ter o tamanho de uma folha A4 (neste caso o múltiplo > maior possível de 140x140 pixels). > 3.2.5.1. Pode ter também os formatos correntes: logotipo, papel de carta, > cartão, web logo, favicon (16x16). > 3.2.6. O logotipo tem de ter uma versão140x140 pixels para ser colocado > on-line para votação. o formato é livre, pois como referí vai ser refeito. > 3.2.7. A proposta deve ser enviada, preferencialmente em CD, para da ANSOL> com uma carta cedendo todos os direitos sobre o logotipo caso o > mesmo ganhe o concurso. Concordo com a carta. O CD parece-me não ser tão importante. Cumprimentos, Jaime From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 01:25:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 00:25:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <20020410234222.I7464@fe.up.pt> References: <200204120004.08818.gamito@startux.org> <20020410234222.I7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204120120.37850.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ois! > Muito bem. S=F3 queria ter a certeza de que n=E3o tinhamos extraviado o= teu > formul=E1rio de inscri=E7=E3o, pois apareces na lista de membros que vo= taram na > elei=E7=E3o, que me foi entregue pelo Jo=E3o Neves. Aproveit=E9 a oport= unidade para > referir esse facto, mas n=E3o tem nada a ver com a discuss=E3o anterior= ; por > isso o meu coment=E1rio foi inserido num P.S. no fim ok, se puderes manda-me ent=E3o para o meu mail um PDF com o formul=E1rio= e a=20 direc=E7=E3o para onde o enviar que eu trato disso rapidamente. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tihN7rbuNNzNkCIRAkkcAJ9QP30e4xUrQ6tRoKA0+KDAaJHZLgCdGCyW 88r5Gl/jRhL3xgSHltX8kfQ=3D =3DnzKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 11 01:25:06 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 11 00:25:06 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <1018477192.7248.5.camel@roque> --=-F2KSe1z5WrUUHSSiK/aT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 22:21, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > Um exemplo: fazemos uma assembleia de cond=F3minos no nosso pr=E9dio. L= =E1 para o > fim da assembleia eu sou eleito novo administrador do condom=EDnio. Nesse= caso > dirias que na primeira parte da assembleia eu n=E3o podia obrigar o condo= m=EDnio > mas depois da elei=E7=E3o sim e por isso deveriam ser feitas duas actas? Que eu saiba basta uma unica acta da Assembleia Geral, que comeca por ser escrita por uma mesa ad-hoc, e que depois... <> bla bla bla.... > N=E3o vejo porque n=E3o. A FSF vende os seus livros e se antes do boycot = =E0 Amazon, > os livros eram anunciados l=E1. Os CD's podem ser vendidos sem fins > lucrativos. Existe alguma empresa a distribuir CD's de Debian en Portugal= ? O > M=E1rio Gamito est=E1 a fazer isso? at=E9 agora n=E3o vi CD's =E0 venda e= m parte > nenhuma. Quanto mais nao seja, o cd custou 50c, entao vende-se por 50c. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-F2KSe1z5WrUUHSSiK/aT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tLqIo+C50no0+t4RAmILAJ9hkBuIyzJL+jQreIuED7ys+h8EIQCfRlP/ JkYIMt/e0x7BY8H5/+KEGmE= =+F7b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-F2KSe1z5WrUUHSSiK/aT-- From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 01:35:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-15?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 00:35:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Plano =?iso-8859-15?q?de ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <1018477192.7248.5.camel@roque> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> <1018477192.7248.5.camel@roque> Message-ID: <200204120131.03257.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Viva! > > lucrativos. Existe alguma empresa a distribuir CD's de Debian en > > Portugal? O M=E1rio Gamito est=E1 a fazer isso? at=E9 agora n=E3o vi = CD's =E0 venda > > em parte nenhuma. A com2000si pelo menos vende. N=E3o costumam =E9 estar up to date nas vers=F5es. Eu estava a vender no startux e conto voltar a vender antes que saia a wo= ody,=20 mas n=E3o posso prometer. No entanto, se a ANSOL vender, faz mais sentido e escuso de estar a reinv= entar=20 a roda. O que eu acho mais importante =E9 ter sempre as vers=F5es mais recentes=20 dispon=EDveis o mais rapidamente que for poss=EDvel. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tirE7rbuNNzNkCIRArP5AKCcHfxQRRrqF/P6VmysdbL3+F2VAgCcCiwB q3t4ySSKYPPQgneJzFjV8I0=3D =3D+8UT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 01:57:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 00:57:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo In-Reply-To: <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:07:55AM +0100 References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020410223623.A7464@fe.up.pt> <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020411005659.E9944@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:07:55AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ent=E3o isto n=E3o =E9 um "Concurso para um Logotipo" e sim um "Concurs= o de > Ideias". > =C9 bom que isso fique claro no regulamento. Para mim n=E3o estava e po= r isso > achei necess=E1rio ser mais espec=EDfico. >=20 > Se depois o logotipo pode ser modificado (e ser=E1, pois quem o refizer= far=E1 > altera=E7=F5es e/ou poder=E1 ser decidido fazer altera=E7=F5es pela pr=F3= pria ANSOL) > qual =E9 o significado de dizer que foi "fulano" a criar o logotipo? Tens toda a raz=E3o. Conv=E9m mudarmos os titulo da convocat=F3ria e dize= r "a ideia foi proposta por ..." > Por isso =E9 bom que isto tamb=E9m fique bem explicito no Regulamento: = o Autor > da ideia vencedora pode vir ou n=E3o a efectuar as altera=E7=F5es que a= ANSOL > entender necess=E1rias e nesse caso deve ser notificado para saber se p= retende > que o seu nome continue associado =E0 ideia final ou n=E3o. >=20 > Digo isto porque foram =E1reas (artes gr=E1ficas e arquitectura) a que = estive > ligado alguns anos e sei como funciona. > Mesmo que os autores das ideias n=E3o sejam profissionais do ramo, o > regulamento deve tentar s=EA-lo. At=E9 para evitar chatices futuras, n=E3= o achas? OK, ainda vem que temos algu=E9m com experi=EAncia nessa =E1rea. Amanh=E3= envio uma vers=E3o corrigida. Achas que vamos ter concorrentes? que pr=E9mio sugeri= as? > Quanto =E0s fontes TrueType... acho que os WindowManagers do Linux e o = XFree86 > j=E1 as "trabalham" bem e o MS Windows =E9 essencialmente baseado nesse= tipo de > fontes. Um especialista na mat=E9ria disse: "An increasing number of free software users are substituting their existing free X11 bitmap fonts with Microsoft TrueType fonts, since a)= they can be downloaded at no cost from their Web site , b) they cover a great = deal of international characters, c) they are high-quality and well hinted,= and d) the FreeType project developed a good and free renderer . Building a dependence on non-free software, even a niche one like font= s, is dangerous. Microsoft Truetype core fonts are not free, they are just costless. For now, at least. Citing the TrueType core fonts for the We= b FAQ: You may only redistribute the fonts in their original form (.exe = or .sit.hqx) and with their original file name from your Web site or intr= anet site. You must not supply the fonts, or any derivative fonts based on = them, in any form that adds value to commercial products, such as CD-ROM or = disk based multimedia programs, application software or utilities." Primoz Peterlin, http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/freefont/ > Se se pretende que os autores tamb=E9m possam ser oriundos de > ambientes Microsoft ent=E3o deve-se poder usar as TrueType, salvaguarda= ndo que > sejam "Free" (i.e. sem "Royalties") e que as enviam em anexo ao trabalh= o. Para deixar que os autores usem as t=E9cnicas e ferramentas que quiserem = e ao mesmo tempo evitar conflitos com os nossos principios, foi proposto receb= ermos um ficheiro gr=E1fico nos formatos referidos, sem nenhuma informa=E7=E3o = de como foi eito ou que ferramentas foram usadas. > Mandei tamb=E9m para a Lista porque penso que era tamb=E9m essa a tua i= deia: > manter a conversa no grupo. =C0s vezes tamb=E9m me acontece que ao resp= onder me > esque=E7o que =E9 preciso alterar o destinat=E1rio ;-) =C9. A ideia e discutir isto na lista. Eu costumo responder =E0 lista e a= o autor da mensagem mas neste caso vou responder ent=E3o s=F3 =E0 lista para que = n=E3o penses que =E9 uma mensagem privada. Cumprimentos, Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 11 02:01:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 11 01:01:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Equilíbrio References: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <01d201c1e0eb$3d5e2140$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Bom! Bom! Bom! Não nos vamos começar a chatear uns com os outros e a estragar o bom ambiente :-D Vá! Animo que a luta é longa e dificil. --------------------- Quanto à venda de merchandising pela ANSOL eu sou absolutamente a favor. A ANSOL vai ter de encontrar formas viáveis e interessantes de se auto-financiar. E isto sem fazer concorrência com empresas, já de si a lutar com um mercado complicado. Até porque não fará muito sentido a ANSOL começar a prestar serviços de assistência técnica ou efectuar projectos de sistemas. Por isso a outra única opção é o merchandising. Mas tem de ser merchandising da ANSOL, ou seja com o LOGO da ANSOL ou eventualmente merchandising da FSF, ou GNOME, ou KDE, ou WindowMaker, ou... Enfim, projectos que respeitem os principios da ANSOL e que NUNCA sejam pertença de uma empresa. E as "distros" são normalmente pertença de empresas ;-) Claro que vender o merchandising e outros produtos da DEBIAN é possível, aceitável e quase mandatório por não ser uma empresa e por precisarem também de ser ajudados :-) Actualmente o "vendedor" da Debian é o "Departamento de Engenharia Química * Faculdade de Ciências e Tecnologia * Universidade de Coimbra" http://www.eq.uc.pt/laca/debian, mas penso que se poderia tentar junto da Debian que fosse (ou também fosse) a ANSOL a "vendedora" do Debian em Portugal. E contra mim falo que tenho uma empresa e que me daria muito jeito que a ANSOL vendesse umas "canequinhas" da Conectiva e da Astaro ou uns "bonézinhos" da SITAAR.... Mas não pode ser. Não se aceitaram as empresas nacionais como sócias e depois vendia-se merchandising de algumas internacionais. E nem é por serem empresas já conhecidas. É pelo principio de isenção face a TODOS os produtores comerciais. Que moral teria a ANSOL face a uma permissividade destas com a SuSE ou com a Mandrake e excluindo outras :-( Porque a ANSOL vender merchandising da SuSE e não vender da Caixa Mágica era no mínimo estranho. E vender merchandising de uma empresa que na sua "distro" incluí "coisas" não Software Livre é dar o aval a uma mentira. Neste campo a ANSOL vai ter de se rodear de muitos cuidados para nunca cair em facilitismos comerciais que possam acarretar o seu descrédito enquanto indefectível defensora do Software Livre, conforme as premissas da FSF. Nem a FSF o iria aceitar. A DEBIAN é uma pseudo-entidade que não está ligada à FSF da mesma forma institucional que a ANSOL, e isso é preciso não esquecer. A DEBIAN pode ter uma área de software "non-free" (embora não incluido na "distro"), a ANSOL não o poderá ter nunca. Bem! Por hoje já chega. Vou fechar o estaminé. 1 abraço, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mário Gamito" To: Sent: Sexta-feira, 12 de Abril de 2002 0:11 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Equilíbrio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Viva! > P.S. Por não teres entregue o formulário de inscrição e ter saído da > assembleia sem nos dar tempo de perguntar, ainda não fazes parte da > lista de membros da ANSOL. Onde queres chegar ? Sei bem disso. Não é preciso lembrares-me que sou um participante de segunda nesta lista. Sou-o por opção. Não entreguei o formulário porque não fiquei suficientemente esclarecido sobre algumas questões e espero ficar nesta lista. E disso dependerá se me torno associado ou não. Estou como estão alguns 80 inscritos nesta lista. Nem mais nem menos. Mas se é condição sine qua non ser associado da ANSOL para participar na lista, espero(?) pelo formulário online. Abraço, Mário Gamito P. S.: Quanto a ter saído sem dar hipótese de perguntar, é porque tinha a minha mulher e o meu filho à minha espera e não ia interromper a tua intervenção. Só isso. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8thgU7rbuNNzNkCIRAuIzAJ0Vfjl+Bx/8/W4FB30OJt6nm5G5SQCaAmkF cuOrqieHbS01+MeUSzbM9S4= =4bUg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 02:09:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 01:09:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sobre =?iso-8859-1?q?distribui=E7=F5es?= Message-ID: <200204120204.16571.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ainda mais uma achega sobre a venda de distribui=E7=F5es. A ideia de o startux.org vender distribui=E7=F5es era (e ir=E1 ser) a de=20 proporcionar =E0s pessoas o acesso ao seu Linux preferido. A margem de lucro era min=EDma e basicamente destinava-se a comprar mais = CDs e=20 pagar mais despesas de envio. Ou seja, tornar o processo n=E3o lucrativo,= mas=20 auto-sustent=E1vel. Ora bem, eu tinha dispon=EDvel para venda as *downloadable versions* de t= odas as=20 distribui=E7=F5es (SuSE =E0 parte, portanto) e ainda FreeBSD. Portanto, tudo igualmente software livre. Das encomendas todas que recebemos, destacaram-se de longe duas: FreeBSD = e=20 Mandrake. Isto leva-me a concluir que o pessoal queria experimentar coisas novas=20 (FreeBSD) ou a querer ter um Linux desktop oriented (Mandrake). Ora estando dispon=EDveis as downloadable versions (e n=E3o sendo portant= o=20 revendedor de nada) de v=E1rio software livre, eu s=F3 penso que talvez n= =E3o se=20 devesse coartar as pessoas a unicamente Debian, tanto mais que se um dos=20 principais objectivos da ANSOL =E9 promover a utiliza=E7=E3o de software = livre,=20 talvez a Debian n=E3o seja a melhor escolha para quem come=E7a. Eu n=E3o tenho nada contra a Debian nem a favor de outras. Ali=E1s ponder= o=20 seriamente mudar-me de SuSE para Debian quando sair a Woody. Eu sou s=F3 pela livre escolha de cada um. Se algu=E9m quiser ter o =FAltimo Red Hat ou Mandrake (e n=E3o quiser Deb= ian),=20 porque n=E3o a ANSOL vender-lho ? N=E3o estar=E1 tamb=E9m a contribuir para a dissemina=E7=E3o do uso do so= ftware livre=20 por causa disso ? Se =E9 tudo software livre... =C9 que isto =E9 complicado. Estou a escrever este mail em SuSE, em KDE (que j=E1 esteve no =EDndex do= s=20 guardi=F5es do templo) e acho que assiste a todos o direito de fazer a su= a=20 op=E7=E3o. Mais uma vez, sendo tudo software livre - Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian... Quanto a estar-se a ajudar empresas privadas proporcionando a compra de=20 downloadable versions de outras distribui=E7=F5es que n=E3o a Debian, ach= o que n=E3o=20 =E9 bem assim. E se for assim, tamb=E9m n=E3o =E9 mau, porque o Linux tamb=E9m n=E3o sob= revive sem=20 elas. Talvez a m=E1xima "money talks, shit walks" n=E3o devesse ser levada muit= o a s=E9rio=20 neste assunto da vendas dos CDs. E =E9 s=F3 que se est=E1 a fazer tarde. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tjKM7rbuNNzNkCIRAr1EAJ0YFz7Lwtkfae2VSR3igSmpcOU9jwCeLp+e /VMocaX8bo6i8egdy5197yg=3D =3DaNn5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 11 02:11:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 11 01:11:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020410223623.A7464@fe.up.pt> <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020411005659.E9944@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <01e401c1e0ec$b2411d40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Só vou dar mais uma achega acerca da fontes porque tenho mesmo de dormir. Estou estafado. > Quanto às fontes TrueType... acho que os WindowManagers do Linux e o XFree86 > já as "trabalham" bem e o MS Windows é essencialmente baseado nesse tipo de > fontes. Um especialista na matéria disse: "An increasing number of free software users are substituting their existing free X11 bitmap fonts with Microsoft TrueType fonts, since a) they can be downloaded at no cost from their Web site , b) they cover a great deal of international characters, c) they are high-quality and well hinted, and d) the FreeType project developed a good and free renderer . Building a dependence on non-free software, even a niche one like fonts, is dangerous. Microsoft Truetype core fonts are not free, they are just costless. For now, at least. Citing the TrueType core fonts for the Web FAQ: You may only redistribute the fonts in their original form (.exe or .sit.hqx) and with their original file name from your Web site or intranet site. You must not supply the fonts, or any derivative fonts based on them, in any form that adds value to commercial products, such as CD-ROM or disk based multimedia programs, application software or utilities." Primoz Peterlin, http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/freefont/ __________________________________________________________ Sim. Mas os sites que te indiquei NÃO SÃO da Microsoft. Deus me livre ;-) São produtores independentes que criaram as suas fontes e as disponibilizam "Freeware". Vai lá vêr e depois diz-me qualquer coisa. Eu já criei algumas fontes - em tempos - para clientes usando o (passe a publicidade) Corel Draw. Este programa (passe a publicidade) permite exportar imagens para fontes TrueType. Eu tenho a ideia de que o formato True Type também é da Adobe e é um formato público. Estou errado? 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 11 02:34:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 11 01:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Problemas com ocultação de emails Message-ID: <01f801c1e0ef$e32bf940$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva, O sistema de ocultar o email está tão complexo que está a comer partes das mensagens. Quem estiver a mexer nisso que faça uns testezinhos, ok. Mensagem referência: http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-geral/2002-April/001299.html 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 11 02:55:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 11 01:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Slashdot | A Walk Through the Gentoo Linux Install Process Message-ID: <000701c1e0f2$cb80ae00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Para quem possa estar com vontade de experimentar. Uma distro mesmo muito interessante. Convém lêr antes o artigo para estar preparado ;-) http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/05/0536226 1, Lopo From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Thu Apr 11 03:08:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Thu Apr 11 02:08:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo In-Reply-To: <01e401c1e0ec$b2411d40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:06:08AM +0100 References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020410223623.A7464@fe.up.pt> <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020411005659.E9944@fe.up.pt> <01e401c1e0ec$b2411d40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020411020342.A3205@nsk.yi.org> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:06:08AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > S=E3o produtores independentes que criaram as suas fontes e as disponib= ilizam > "Freeware". Tamb=E9m as da Microsoft. > Eu tenho a ideia de que o formato True Type tamb=E9m =E9 da Adobe e =E9= um formato > p=FAblico. Estou errado? Est=E1s, o formato TrueType =E9 da Microsoft. Pode ter sido baseado nos f= ormatos da Adobe (Type1, etc). Mas trata-se apenas dum formato diferente que suporta o que =E9 de esperar para uma fonte vectorial decente, incluido ajudas para resolu=E7=F5es pequenas (n=E3o sei se o da Adobe tem isso). No entanto, o formato =E9 p=FAblico (tanto quanto =E9 o .wav, .bmp, etc). Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 07:27:03 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 06:27:03 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> --VrqPEDrXMn8OVzN4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:48:02PM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: >=20 > =C9 mais ou menos o que tenho em mente, mas em vez de link para um fichei= ro, a > pessoa recebe de volta no browser o ficheiro PostScript. Eu sei fazer isso > facilmente mas faz falta tempo. =C9 melhor ser em PDF (ou em ambos) pois existe muita gente, especiamente utilizadores de um certo sistema operativo n=E3o-livre que n=E3o me ocorre agora o nome, :) que n=E3o sabem imprimir postscript mas sabem imprimir PDF. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --VrqPEDrXMn8OVzN4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tR5HkNvNeN9nJYcRAkqiAJ427oqGx5C4aVqwtXIzeOBTXXbYewCeJyUC xuHxyV8QAzrIHT+pLZFBnGI= =3TAM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VrqPEDrXMn8OVzN4-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 08:02:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 07:02:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020411060128.GC1448@queen.null.nil> --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:21:19PM +0100, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > Se fizemos duas assembleias, ent=E3o deveriamos ter feito duas convocat= =F3rias com > duas ordens de trabalho. Tens raz=E3o. Mas existe uma maneira legal de dar a volta ao assunto. O C=F3digo Civil, no seu Art. 174, ponto 3, afirma o seguinte: "A compar=EAncia de todos os associados sanciona quaisquer irregularidades da convoca=E7=E3o, desde que nenhum deles se oponha =E0 realiza=E7=E3o da a= ssembleia". > Um exemplo: fazemos uma assembleia de cond=F3minos no nosso pr=E9dio. L= =E1 para o > fim da assembleia eu sou eleito novo administrador do condom=EDnio. Nesse= caso > dirias que na primeira parte da assembleia eu n=E3o podia obrigar o condo= m=EDnio > mas depois da elei=E7=E3o sim e por isso deveriam ser feitas duas actas? Normalmente (se n=E3o estou em erro) os =F3rg=E3os sociais n=E3o tomam posse imediatamente, mas sim ap=F3s a assembleia, possivelmente uns dias mais tar= de. Os Estatutos da ANSOL, no seu artigo Nono, ponto 2, afirma que os =F3rg=E3os sociais eleitos entram em fun=E7=F5es num prazo de 15 dias.=20 Ou seja, a Mesa da AG normalmente n=E3o muda a meio da assembleia, e as pessoas que s=E3o eleitas para a nova AG, como s=F3 tomar=E3o posse eventua= lmente passados uns dias, s=F3 ir=E3o constituir a Mesa da AG na assembleia seguin= te. Assim, a acta =E9 assinada pela Mesa da AG "antiga" e n=E3o pela "nova". Estou convencido que isto =E9 assim, mas se estiver enganado digam. No nosso caso, como n=E3o existiam =F3rg=E3os sociais, foi criada uma mesa tempor=E1ria para dirigir a sess=E3o. Ap=F3s os =F3rg=E3os sociais terem si= do eleitos, estes entraram imediatamente em fun=E7=F5es e a mesa foi substituida. Agora quanto =E0 assinatura pela Comiss=E3o Instaladora. Eu acho que =E9 ne= cess=E1ria pois tem de haver um documento que comprove que aquela assembleia foi convocada e realizada com a autoriza=E7=E3o da CI. Caso contr=E1rio estou a imaginar o not=E1rio, a olhar para a acta e a dizer "Quem =E9 que me garante que estas pessoas que assinam esta acta t=EAm poderes para tal? Os nomes que eu tenho aqui na escritura n=E3o s=E3o estes. Isto n=E3o =E9 v=E1lido". --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tSa4kNvNeN9nJYcRAjN+AJ9wezuPqNRYqTO35I02JnwhiSandwCffzuN fDulWRPGP/2+2IszVZKMlDw= =2j+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 08:04:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 07:04:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020410222803.Z7464@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410184841.5dffa266.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410185839.GF30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410200229.4dc59256.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020410193607.GD324@queen.null.nil> <20020410222803.Z7464@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020411060322.GD1448@queen.null.nil> --tNQTSEo8WG/FKZ8E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:28:03PM +0100, Jaime E . Villate wrote: >=20 > Eu sugeria fazer o que costumo fazer em outras listas que administro (des= culpa > n=E3o ajudar nesta, mas mailman@nocturno n=E3o gosta nunca dos "cookies" = que ele > pr=F3prio envia para mim) : Podes tentar de novo agora e ver se ainda d=E1 problemas com os cookies? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --tNQTSEo8WG/FKZ8E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tScqkNvNeN9nJYcRAtQNAKCbMC7DKQTWIQ5z1FOYaefKv2yUgACgkB25 cra5mHtpiZJ17prB/JO0dmk= =PGsZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tNQTSEo8WG/FKZ8E-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 08:08:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 07:08:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?iso-8859-1?Q?a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?c=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20020411060725.GE1448@queen.null.nil> --cYtjc4pxslFTELvY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:32:23PM +0100, Rui Leite wrote: >=20 > Vai uma diferen=E7a muito grande e n=E3o sei se =E9 justific=E1vel. =C9 c= erto que > a associa=E7=E3o precisa de fundos mas n=E3o precisa de nadar em dinheiro. N=E3o me choca nada que a associa=E7=E3o "nade em dinheiro". Quanto mais me= lhor. Tenho a certeza que arranjamos onde o gastar. :) Por exemplo com advogados para nos ajudarem nos nossos problemas jur=EDdicos. > Vamos n=E3o esquecer uma coisa. Isto =E9 uma associa=E7=E3o sem fins lucr= ativos. > Em princ=EDpio a principal fonte de receitas dever=E1 ser as quotas pagas > pelos s=F3cios. Tamb=E9m pode vir de donativos e subs=EDdios. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --cYtjc4pxslFTELvY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tSgdkNvNeN9nJYcRAhBVAJ9jQit4bw4FNEtBCClSSFArSvydugCgy6Ue GUxhgZ9JrDQSHNy5hrh5lBE= =pF7i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cYtjc4pxslFTELvY-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 08:19:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 07:19:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <01d201c1e0eb$3d5e2140$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org> <01d201c1e0eb$3d5e2140$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020411061740.GF1448@queen.null.nil> --fwqqG+mf3f7vyBCB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:55:05AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >=20 > Actualmente o "vendedor" da Debian =E9 o "Departamento de Engenharia Qu= =EDmica * > Faculdade de Ci=EAncias e Tecnologia * Universidade de Coimbra" > http://www.eq.uc.pt/laca/debian, mas penso que se poderia tentar junto da > Debian que fosse (ou tamb=E9m fosse) a ANSOL a "vendedora" do Debian em > Portugal. A Debian n=E3o controla os seus "representantes" nos diversos pa=EDses. Quem quiser vender CD's da debian manda para l=E1 um mail a pedir para acrescentar o seu contacto na p=E1gina de vendedores e eles acrescentam. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --fwqqG+mf3f7vyBCB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tSqEkNvNeN9nJYcRAqvUAJ9wt0US8nawld4oS8E6e70mdv0ZlQCgoSfU EAMYowEJINgGR6iAlRztdgA= =/Dfu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fwqqG+mf3f7vyBCB-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Thu Apr 11 08:21:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Thu Apr 11 07:21:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DProble?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?mas_com_oculta=E7=E3o?= de emails In-Reply-To: <01f801c1e0ef$e32bf940$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <01f801c1e0ef$e32bf940$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020411062008.GG1448@queen.null.nil> --f5QefDQHtn8hx44O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:28:47AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >=20 > O sistema de ocultar o email est=E1 t=E3o complexo que est=E1 a comer par= tes das > mensagens. > Quem estiver a mexer nisso que fa=E7a uns testezinhos, ok. Obrigado pelo "bug-report". J=E1 est=E1 resolvido (espero eu). Eu j=E1 devia ter ju=EDzo para n=E3o andar a mexer onde n=E3o sei... :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --f5QefDQHtn8hx44O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tSsYkNvNeN9nJYcRAhxqAKCHKmllzAMPQ2UXcb1iGWvkhGWQOwCfRJyj X61OdJvSvVyaA6YEYepMYsM= =dVEW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --f5QefDQHtn8hx44O-- From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 09:58:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 08:58:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DEquil=EDbrio?= In-Reply-To: <20020411061740.GF1448@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:17:40AM +0100 References: <200204120011.20601.gamito@startux.org> <01d201c1e0eb$3d5e2140$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020411061740.GF1448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020411085743.C10060@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:17:40AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:55:05AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > >=20 > > Actualmente o "vendedor" da Debian =E9 o "Departamento de Engenharia = Qu=EDmica * > > Faculdade de Ci=EAncias e Tecnologia * Universidade de Coimbra" > > http://www.eq.uc.pt/laca/debian, mas penso que se poderia tentar junt= o da > > Debian que fosse (ou tamb=E9m fosse) a ANSOL a "vendedora" do Debian= em > > Portugal. >=20 > A Debian n=E3o controla os seus "representantes" nos diversos pa=EDses. > Quem quiser vender CD's da debian manda para l=E1 um mail a pedir para > acrescentar o seu contacto na p=E1gina de vendedores e eles acrescentam. Ou ainda mais f=E1cil, pede a mim para que o fa=E7a, pois eu tenho acesso= ao CVS da Web de Debian e j=E1 tenho feito modifica=E7=F5es nas p=E1ginas v=E1ri= as vezes. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 10:05:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 09:05:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DProblemas_com_oculta=E7=E3o_de_emails?= In-Reply-To: <01f801c1e0ef$e32bf940$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:28:47AM +0100 References: <01f801c1e0ef$e32bf940$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020411090437.D10060@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:28:47AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > O sistema de ocultar o email est=E1 t=E3o complexo que est=E1 a comer p= artes das > mensagens. > Quem estiver a mexer nisso que fa=E7a uns testezinhos, ok. Ah! ser=E1 por isso que as mensagens que eu envio, escritas em portugu=EA= s, quando me chegam de volta enviadas pela lista aparecem escritas em espanhol? :-) Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 10:15:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 09:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:25:30AM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:25:30AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > =C9 melhor ser em PDF (ou em ambos) pois existe muita gente, especiamen= te > utilizadores de um certo sistema operativo n=E3o-livre que n=E3o me oco= rre > agora o nome, :) que n=E3o sabem imprimir postscript mas sabem imprimir= PDF. E nunca v=E3o aprender a imprimir Postscript se continuarmos a dar-lhes PDF. Agora que Adobe j=E1 n=E3o deixa distribuir Acrobat Reader em Debian= (nem ficando em non-free como estava de antes) a minha paix=E3o pelo PDF tem enfraquecido bastante. Do ponto de vista t=E9cnico, n=E3o sei gerar PDF ("on the fly") a partir = de um script CGI simples, sem ter que usar links como proponhas. O primeiro tes= te para saber se a pessoa dever=E1 pertencer ou n=E3o =E0 ANSOL ser=E1 apren= der a instalar o Ghostscript (em qualquer plataforma que for; ou ent=E3o fazer = batota e n=E3o usar o sistema de inscri=E7=E3o on-line). Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 10:38:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 09:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?imediato?= In-Reply-To: <20020411060128.GC1448@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:01:28AM +0100 References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411060128.GC1448@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020411093720.F10060@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:01:28AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Normalmente (se n=E3o estou em erro) os =F3rg=E3os sociais n=E3o tomam = posse > imediatamente, mas sim ap=F3s a assembleia, possivelmente uns dias mais= tarde. > Os Estatutos da ANSOL, no seu artigo Nono, ponto 2, afirma que os =F3rg= =E3os > sociais eleitos entram em fun=E7=F5es num prazo de 15 dias.=20 > Ou seja, a Mesa da AG normalmente n=E3o muda a meio da assembleia, e as > pessoas que s=E3o eleitas para a nova AG, como s=F3 tomar=E3o posse eve= ntualmente > passados uns dias, s=F3 ir=E3o constituir a Mesa da AG na assembleia se= guinte. > Assim, a acta =E9 assinada pela Mesa da AG "antiga" e n=E3o pela "nova". > Estou convencido que isto =E9 assim, mas se estiver enganado digam. Ent=E3o mais uma raz=E3o para fazermos uma acta e n=E3o duas. Se fazemos = duas actas, o Vasco ainda n=E3o tinha entrado em fun=E7=F5es e n=E3o podia presidir a= segunda assembleia. O Vitor no entanto foi nomeado "ad-hoc" tendo assim o direito= de estar na mesa o tempo tudo. > Agora quanto =E0 assinatura pela Comiss=E3o Instaladora. Eu acho que =E9= necess=E1ria > pois tem de haver um documento que comprove que aquela assembleia foi > convocada e realizada com a autoriza=E7=E3o da CI. Caso contr=E1rio est= ou a > imaginar o not=E1rio, a olhar para a acta e a dizer "Quem =E9 que me ga= rante > que estas pessoas que assinam esta acta t=EAm poderes para tal? Os nome= s que > eu tenho aqui na escritura n=E3o s=E3o estes. Isto n=E3o =E9 v=E1lido". Tenho e-mail trocado entre a CI que comprova que os 3 estivemos de acordo= com a convocat=F3ria. Se for preciso imprime-se, assina-mos e fica arquivado.= Tamb=E9m tenho arquivados documentos (assinados e carimbados) para comprovar que a= s 24 pessoas que participaram na assembleia j=E1 eram membros durante a Assemb= leia; aceites pelo processo legal estipulado no regulamento. N=E3o temos que in= formar ao not=E1rio cada vez que aceitamos um novo membro, pois n=E3o? Jaime From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 10:51:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 09:51:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> Viva! > E nunca v=E3o aprender a imprimir Postscript se continuarmos a dar-lhes > PDF. Agora que Adobe j=E1 n=E3o deixa distribuir Acrobat Reader em Debi= an (nem > ficando em non-free como estava de antes) a minha paix=E3o pelo PDF tem > enfraquecido bastante. > (...) O primeiro teste > para saber se a pessoa dever=E1 pertencer ou n=E3o =E0 ANSOL ser=E1 apr= ender a > instalar o Ghostscript (em qualquer plataforma que for; ou ent=E3o faze= r > batota e n=E3o usar o sistema de inscri=E7=E3o on-line). Sou um contestat=E1rio incorr=EDgivel, mas construtivo. O que disseste n=E3o impedir=E1 (ou n=E3o inibir=E1 pelo menos) pessoas q= ue se come=E7am=20 a interessar pelo software livre, mas ainda sem conhecimentos t=E9cnicos=20 suficientes de se juntarem =E0 ANSOL ? Penso que este tipo de associados (gente rec=E9m chegada =E0 "causa") =E9= muito=20 importante, pois faz passar a ideia de uma eventual vaga de fundo com ori= gem=20 na sociedade civil (ena, pare=E7o um pol=EDtico) e isso =E9 tamb=E9m muit= o=20 importante. Estar a dizer "O primeiro teste para saber se a pessoa dever=E1 pertencer= ou n=E3o=20 =E0 ANSOL ser=E1 aprender a instalar o Ghostscript" parece-me um pouco re= dutor e=20 vai de encontro a essa minha preocupa=E7=E3o. Al=E9m disso n=E3o est=E1 nos estatutos que =E9 preciso saber instalar o = Ghostscript=20 para se poder pertencer =E0 ANSOL :-) Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANSOL, = que=20 eventualmente ainda n=E3o dominem bem o formato de documentos estranhos=20 (leia-se formatos !=3D .doc). Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamito From ernesto arroba ipimar.pt Thu Apr 11 11:09:02 2002 From: ernesto arroba ipimar.pt (Ernesto Jardim) Date: Thu Apr 11 10:09:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <3CB2866800063279@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <200204111249.44435.gamito@startux.org> <1018443126.19767.31.camel@gandalf> <3CB2866800063279@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: <1018520151.17309.21.camel@gandalf> Claro. N=E3o tenho nenhum problema com o assunto. H=E1 4 ou 5 anos que fa=E7o comp= ras online e nunca tive nenhum problema. Apenas tenho cuidado em n=E3o comprar coisas a sites duvidossos. N=E3o me parece que a ANSOL seja duvidosa a este n=EDvel :) EJ On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 18:38, Hugo Nogueira wrote: > E tambem fazer o pagamento online ;) >=20 > Hugo. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Thu Apr 11 11:18:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Thu Apr 11 10:18:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020411091334.GI4053@artenumerica.com> * Mário Gamito [2002-04-12 10:46 +0000]: > > (...) O primeiro teste > > para saber se a pessoa deverá pertencer ou não à ANSOL será aprender a > > instalar o Ghostscript (em qualquer plataforma que for; ou então fazer > > batota e não usar o sistema de inscrição on-line). > > > Sou um contestatário incorrígivel, mas construtivo. > > > O que disseste não impedirá (ou não inibirá pelo menos) pessoas que se começam > a interessar pelo software livre, mas ainda sem conhecimentos técnicos > suficientes de se juntarem à ANSOL ? Pois, não é necessário exagerar nas provas iniciáticas :-) Conheço professores universitários que ficariam atrapalhados para imprimir PostScript autonomamente, mas que não são necessariamente hostis a software livre... Por outro lado, também há quem fique atrapalhado com PDF. Atrapalhamento mínimo é a página de HTML, quando pode ser feita. Por outro lado, o TeX pode gerar PDF lindo. Só tenho pena de ainda não ter conseguido ajudar a transformar alguns documentos da ANSOL. Logo que tenha um bocadinho (livre não digo, mas de incapacidade-de-fazer-o-que-era-suposto-estar-a-fazer-job-wise), gostava de atacar alguns documentos. No Linux (pelo menos por aqui) a situação não está tão brilhante para PDF no écran como seria simpático. gv e xpdf ainda têm umas arestas aguçadas para arrendondar, o Acrobat a 16 bits por pixel gosta de adquirir frequentemente tons rosados no fundo "branco" da página (e lixar o aspecto das letras), a não ser, por vezes, que se desligue smoothing, o que também lixa o aspecto das letras... :[ ) Back to job-wise-stuff... From gamito arroba startux.org Thu Apr 11 11:42:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 10:42:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?iso-8859-1?q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <1018520151.17309.21.camel@gandalf> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <3CB2866800063279@mail.libertysurf.net> <1018520151.17309.21.camel@gandalf> Message-ID: <200204121137.57039.gamito@startux.org> Ois! > N=E3o tenho nenhum problema com o assunto. H=E1 4 ou 5 anos que fa=E7o = compras > online e nunca tive nenhum problema. Apenas tenho cuidado em n=E3o comp= rar > coisas a sites duvidossos. > > N=E3o me parece que a ANSOL seja duvidosa a este n=EDvel :) L=E1 vai come=E7ar mais uma discuss=E3o sobre certificados e CAs :-) Se for assim, acho que mais vale mesmo investir em algo bem feito, apesar= de o=20 dinheiro n=E3o abundar na ANSOL. Abra=E7o, M=E1rio Gamtio From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 11 12:15:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 11 11:15:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <200204121137.57039.gamito@startux.org> References: <3CB402FC.3020705@fe.up.pt> <3CB2866800063279@mail.libertysurf.net> <1018520151.17309.21.camel@gandalf> <200204121137.57039.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <1018516178.9530.7.camel@roque> --=-PdixGiQokwSK7xjTtoqh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2002-04-12 at 11:37, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > N=E3o tenho nenhum problema com o assunto. H=E1 4 ou 5 anos que fa=E7o = compras > > online e nunca tive nenhum problema. Apenas tenho cuidado em n=E3o comp= rar > > coisas a sites duvidossos. > > N=E3o me parece que a ANSOL seja duvidosa a este n=EDvel :) > L=E1 vai come=E7ar mais uma discuss=E3o sobre certificados e CAs :-) > Se for assim, acho que mais vale mesmo investir em algo bem feito, apesar= de o=20 > dinheiro n=E3o abundar na ANSOL. O que e bem feito? Um certificado self signed nao nos diz muito (A MENOS QUE SEJA ASSINADO EXTERNAMENTE POR ALGUEM COMO O JAIME, por exemplo) a respeito da autenticacao do servidor. Um certificado web server de uma root ca existente e caro! hugs --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-PdixGiQokwSK7xjTtoqh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tVLSo+C50no0+t4RAoBzAJ9ybPjaE8kxQBaoxxVgldugi8JPFgCgu/IT exx0djHKZ8aAP0hdeceP1PI= =dKZA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PdixGiQokwSK7xjTtoqh-- From joao.csf arroba clix.pt Thu Apr 11 13:54:02 2002 From: joao.csf arroba clix.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 12:54:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Distros, =?iso-8859-15?q?distribui=E7=E3o=20em?= portugal Message-ID: #Espero que desta a vez a mensagem, chegue a lista# Olá Eu, penso que um dos principais objectivos da ANSOL é propocionar o acesso ao software livre em portugal, portanto está fora de questão a ANSOL não realizar a distribuição de algumas distros em portugal. Por exemplo, no meu caso, que desde de 2000 que desejava experimentar o linux, mas não havia nenhuma empresa ou entidade que me realizasse a cópia , e estava fora de questão eu realizar o dowload com uma linha de 56 kb. Além do startux.org em que encomendei a debian (obrigado Mário Gamito :) ) existe uma outra empresa a Microcaos , que foi a primeira a me fornecer uma cópia de linux neste caso o red hat e isto só em 2001. Em suma , existem centenas de pessoas provavelmente que desejam experimentar linux e não o fazem porque tem uma ligação 56 kb , ou não têm simplesmente ligação a internet. Embora , a ANSOL não tenha fins lucrativos , penso que a venda de cd's de 0,50 ¤ (cada um + portes) , por um 1 ¤ cada um (+portes), dá o tal lucro que deu ao Mário Gamito , e 30X mais trabalho resumindo , lucro deste não obrigado. O lucro criado , poderá ser empregue em autocolantes e coisas do genero ou até no premio para o concurso de imagem :P Uma sugestão de premio era um impressora Epson Stylus Color c20 UX com ligação usb , por 54,95 (11.016 pte). No feira nova. Abraços João Fernandes p.s-Vamos lá ver , se o mail chegou inteiro.... a semanas que não consigo enviar um unico e-mail para a lista! From fmaia arroba gmx.net Thu Apr 11 16:09:01 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Thu Apr 11 15:09:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020411150149.3bb53a70.fmaia@gmx.net> On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:46:54 +0100 Mário Gamito wrote: > Viva! > > > E nunca vão aprender a imprimir Postscript se continuarmos a dar-lhes > > PDF. Agora que Adobe já não deixa distribuir Acrobat Reader em Debian (nem > > ficando em non-free como estava de antes) a minha paixão pelo PDF tem > > enfraquecido bastante. > > > (...) O primeiro teste > > para saber se a pessoa deverá pertencer ou não à ANSOL será aprender a > > instalar o Ghostscript (em qualquer plataforma que for; ou então fazer > > batota e não usar o sistema de inscrição on-line). > > > Sou um contestatário incorrígivel, mas construtivo. > > > O que disseste não impedirá (ou não inibirá pelo menos) pessoas que se começam > a interessar pelo software livre, mas ainda sem conhecimentos técnicos > suficientes de se juntarem à ANSOL ? > Penso que este tipo de associados (gente recém chegada à "causa") é muito > importante, pois faz passar a ideia de uma eventual vaga de fundo com origem > na sociedade civil (ena, pareço um político) e isso é também muito > importante. > > Estar a dizer "O primeiro teste para saber se a pessoa deverá pertencer ou não > à ANSOL será aprender a instalar o Ghostscript" parece-me um pouco redutor e > vai de encontro a essa minha preocupação. > > Além disso não está nos estatutos que é preciso saber instalar o Ghostscript > para se poder pertencer à ANSOL :-) > > Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANSOL, que > eventualmente ainda não dominem bem o formato de documentos estranhos > (leia-se formatos != .doc). Concordo inteiramente com o Mário Gamito. Acho que não vale a pena fechar a porta às pessoas só porque elas não conseguem instalar, ou não conhecem, certo software. -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 16:17:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 15:17:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <20020411091334.GI4053@artenumerica.com>; from jmce@artenumerica.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:13:34AM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> <20020411091334.GI4053@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020411151604.M10060@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:13:34AM +0100, J M Cerqueira Esteves wrote: > Pois, n=E3o =E9 necess=E1rio exagerar nas provas inici=E1ticas :-) Conh= e=E7o=20 > professores universit=E1rios que ficariam atrapalhados para imprimir > PostScript autonomamente, mas que n=E3o s=E3o necessariamente hostis a > software livre... Por outro lado, tamb=E9m h=E1 quem fique atrapalhado= com PDF. > Atrapalhamento m=EDnimo =E9 a p=E1gina de HTML, quando pode ser feita. Volto a repetir mais uma vez: est=E1 em discuss=E3o a inscri=E7=E3o "on-line". Obviamente que existe sempre a inscri=E7=E3o off-line. Ali=E1s, dos 25 membros inscritos at=E9 agora, menhum teve que dar provas= de terem visto um computador alguma vez nas suas vidas. > Por outro lado, o TeX pode gerar PDF lindo. S=F3 tenho pena de ainda > n=E3o ter conseguido ajudar a transformar alguns documentos da ANSOL. Isso j=E1 est=E1 feito desde o momento em que foi posta a primeira pedra = em www.ansol.org: xhtml2latex pagina-web.xhtml > pagina-web.tex pdflatex pagina-web (http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/xhtmltools) Jaime From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Thu Apr 11 18:04:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Thu Apr 11 17:04:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]BD dos sócios In-Reply-To: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> Message-ID: <20020410201941.673d42c0.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:09:11 +0100 "Vasco Figueira" wrote: > A inscri=E7=E3o online tem apenas o problema do pagamento e da assinatu= ra. > N=E3o sei como =E9 que se pode dar a volta =E2 segunda, mas a primeira,= basta > n=E3o validar a inscri=E7=E3o at=E9 que se receba o pagamenmto por uma = das tr=EAs > vias poss=EDveis, julgo. Os que nao assinam ou assinam falso, nao pagam. Nao estou a imaginar a situacao de se pagar a joia e quota e depois falsi= ficar a assinatura...=20 A nos, compete receber a joia e mensalidade (ou anuidade). Nao pedimos BI's aquando se regista um socio, para verificacao de assinat= ura. Se o pagamento chegar! Se os dados estiverem preenchidos! (Correctamente = ou nao) E' o que nos interessa.. Ou nao ? Para que e' que queremos a assinatura dele (falsa) se ele ja pagou ? Comprovar o que ? ... Ficarmos com o que ?... ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Thu Apr 11 18:23:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Thu Apr 11 17:23:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Diversos... (uff) Message-ID: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Viva! Depois de 19 emails novos (onde cada um e' um testamento), darei agora a = minha opiniao sobre alguns: --- Logotipo --- Lopo, obrigado pelo email que mandaste a alertar para algumas falhas no r= egulamento. O documento inicial e' do Joao Fernandes, eu apenas so' lhe dei um ou out= ro ponto. Depois de ler um email teu sobre o regulamento, fiquei com a impressao qu= e realmente e' melhor designa-lo como "Regulamento para Concurso de Ideia= s para o Logotipo da ANSOL". De facto, interessa-nos a ideia, as cores, "ver" o que acham da ANSOL e q= ual e' a imagem que querem para ela. Assim sendo, o logotipo pode ate' ser feito em formato proprietario, desd= e que aberto ou exportado para algum formato que se leia em linux. Fornecer as fontes que o qual se fez, tambem e' util para uma reproducao = nossa. Penso que tambem convem modificar o documento de forma a realcar q= ue apenas queremos a ideia, as cores, o formato, ideologia etc et al. Penso que poderemos (ANSOL), em coordenacao do vencedor, elaborar uma ver= sao gratuita da ideia / logotipo dele. O problema coloca-se numa clausula que _temos_ de colocar, referindo a ce= dencia _total_ dos direitos de autor 'a ansol. Nao estou a ver muita gente a participar assim. Podemos e' fazer referencia ao autor da ideia em pagina / documento propr= io. No entanto, devemos de possuir a liberdade total de modifica-lo. (Uma= das liberdades necessarias ao Software livre ;) ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Distros e merchandise --- Antes de comecar a falar sobre o assunto, gostava de referir que eu nunca= usei outra distro que nao a RedHat :) . Por isso a minha opiniao vai um = pouco em genero de "lobby" ;) Gostaria de ver a ansol a distribuir _todas_ as distribuicoes existentes = no "mercado", desde as livre ate' 'as com software proprietario.=20 No entanto, o merchandise nao fica por aqui. Existem bones, lencos, autocolantes, toalhas, etc et al de todas as distr= os!=20 Nao e' por a RedHat possuir ou nao software proprietario que deixamos de = vender o bone da redhat ou o chapeu mesmo vermelho de palhinhas ;) Convem distinguir as coisas! Neste ultimo caso, nos poderiamos mesmo ate' vender de tudo! (menos as ts= hirts de uma empresa de redmond) So' nos fazia bem ($$$)!=20 Alem disso, nao me recordo de nenhuma empresa ou associacao em portugal q= ue venda merchandise de varias distros!=20 -> Lopo <-=20 Um bone da Sitaar, penso que seria viavel, se ela ajudasse a comunidade d= e software livre. Porque nao?=20 Seria mais ou menos comercial que uma distro ?...=20 -- E que tal uma parceria com uma ou outra empresa para venda de material ? Nao nos custava nada e poderiamos receber x % pela venda do mesmo .. ? Certo ? Acho que as formas de conseguirmos abater o saldo negativo e com isso con= seguir apoiar financeiramente alguns projectos, e' enorme! Ps: Mario Gamito, por favor nao me interpretes mal! Apenas referi como "n= egocio" o sistema feito por ti, que de certa forma deu algum lucro (pouco= mas algum). O negocio nao e' no sentido pejurativo. Mas sim de forma a nao entrar em = concorrencia! :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Actas --=20 Irei no fim de semana comprar o livro de actas. Espero tambem poder saber algumas coisas mais referente 'as mesmas (no no= tario) e com algumas pessoas de uma reparticao de financas (por causa do = IVA ;)) No entanto, espero a versao final das actas. Falou-se que as mesmas _tinham_ ou _poderiam_ ser juntas. Eu discordo! Porque se bem me lembro a primeira assembleia (acta prelimin= ar) foi ad-hoc e a segunda (assembleia propriamente dita) foi ja' com os = membros eleitos!=20 A questao de o Vasco ter ou nao o direito de estar na "segunda parte" e' = ilegitima, porque de facto ele ja tinha sido eleito na "primeira parte". Penso, que tanto uma como outra deve de constar em livro de actas. Diferenciando que a primeira foi com membros ad-hoc e "presidida" pela Di= reccao Instaladora.=20 A segunda ja foi consoante as "normas". As actas _nunca_ vao ser assinadas pelos 24 membros presentes. A primeira acta, vai ser assinada pela comissao instaladora, presidente e= secretario ad-hoc's, bem como de todos os orgaos eleitos. A segunda acta, vai ser assinada apenas pela Assembleia Geral eleita, e p= rovavelmente pela direccao (acho que nao e' necessario). "Se fizemos duas assembleias, ent=E3o deveriamos ter feito duas convocat=F3= rias com duas ordens de trabalho."=20 Nao foram duas assembleias ;) A primeira foi a passagem da comissao instaladora para os orgaos eleitos. Por questao de facilidade, as duas (partes) vao ser escritas como se foss= e uma unica assembleia. Distinguindo _sempre_ as actas. No entanto irei informar-me melhor sobre isto, no notario. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Provavelmente estou-me a esquecer de alguma coisa, se me lembrar entretan= to mando outro email ;) ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From aife arroba netvisao.pt Thu Apr 11 20:29:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 19:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Convertendo os utilizadores ao software livre... alguns pensamentos... Message-ID: caros membros da lista, Tenho reflectido sobre a questão de como convencer os utilizadores e o mercado da informática a utilizar software livre. Os métodos actuais que utilizamos (gratuitidade do software, criação de comunidades, auto-ajuda) permite ao neófito (individuo que é viciado na novidade) entrar facilmente e participar, até contribuindo com novos projectos, patches, relatórios de bugs, apoio local a outros utilizadores, etc. No entanto, queremos alcançar um público mais vasto, que não têm as características do neófito tecnológico. É necessário vender-lhe a ídeia e a partir do momento que ele a comprou, pagar o preço establecido (a sua participação ética na comunidade). É nesta perspectiva que reparei que falta diversidade nos nossos métodos de propaganda. Para este novo utilizador, é preciso ver para crer e não na sua máquina.... Ao mesmo tempo, a ANSOL têm recebido convites para a participação em feiras comerciais e exposições. Nada de novo... Pergunta: Quando queremos comprar um apartamento num prédio em construção, o que normalmente fazemos? Vamos ver o apartamento modelo, para ter uma ídeia de como vão ser as habitações... Nas feiras, a ANSOL, poderia ter um conjunto de "apartamentos modelo", ou seja, por exemplo, uma rede a simular o funcionamento de uma empresa, nas várias vertentes (comerçial, ofimática, produção), mas de uma maneira realistica e até divertida (que por sua vez seria também educativa para quem nunca viu software na vida real, ficando-lhe o SL como referência). Outro exemplo, o do utilizador pessoal, uma máquina a mostrar os vários usos domesticos (jogos), ofimática, etc... Claro, que isto ainda se encontra no futuro, mas para o conseguirmos alguma vez obter, seria necessário, comerçarmos a fazer uma lista (que também funciona como estudo de mercado) de perfis de utilizador / aplicações /usos habituais / e respectivas quotas de mercado por parte de fornecedores de software proprietário. Tal seria uma ajuda a quem quiser se envolver mais comercialmente no software livre. ----------- Outra ídeia: A ANSOL poderia certificar instaladores de software livre. E disponibilizar uma lista no site. O instalador cobraria um valor de serviço (acordado entre os instaladores ou talvez a ANSOL) por instalação e manutenção. Instalações gratuitas seriam realizadas por quem quisesse.. no entanto creio que o lugar ideal para a gratuidade, seriam as LIP's e as organizações locais que para se disponibilizassem. No entanto, o utilizador que desejasse ter um serviço mais profissional e de acordo com o seu tempo, poderia contactar um instalador e formador. É uma forma alternativa de criar fontes de rendimento de software livre e por sua vez educar o mercado... (além de permitir rendimentos à comunidade e se iniciarem actividades económicas á volta do software livre) A ida a LIPS permitiria além da gratuidade da instalação, dicas e novidades, imbuir os potenciais utilizadores nos valores do Software livre. Para tal, também convém que estes instaladores tenham um manual de trabalho e uma lista de informações e valores a passar aos seus clientes. ----------- Só alguns pensamentos... Um abraço, André Esteves From joao.csf arroba clix.pt Thu Apr 11 21:08:01 2002 From: joao.csf arroba clix.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Thu Apr 11 20:08:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Joias e quotas Message-ID: Olá Para quando realizo o pagamento da joia e da quota???? já tou com vergonha de ser sócio e não pagar. abraços João Fernandes From gach arroba mega.ist.utl.pt Thu Apr 11 22:38:02 2002 From: gach arroba mega.ist.utl.pt (Gustavo Alberto Homem) Date: Thu Apr 11 21:38:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Convertendo os utilizadores ao software livre... alguns pensamentos... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ola a todos, tenho andado calado por falta de tempo, mas queria manifestar-me quanto 'as ideias do Andre: > Tenho reflectido sobre a quest=E3o de como convencer os utilizadores e o= =20 > mercado da inform=E1tica a utilizar software livre. Eu tambem ja pensei nisso varias vezes ...e nao e' facil, porque no campo dos utilizadores nao tecnicos (e dos decisores que por vezes sao pouco ou nada tecnicos) tudo parece estar contra nos. Mas dai' isso ser um desafio.... [...] >=20 > No entanto, queremos alcan=E7ar um p=FAblico mais vasto, que n=E3o t=EAm = as=20 > caracter=EDsticas do ne=F3fito tecnol=F3gico. =C9 necess=E1rio vender-lhe= a =EDdeia e a=20 > partir do momento que ele a comprou, pagar o pre=E7o establecido (a sua= =20 > participa=E7=E3o =E9tica na comunidade). >=20 > =C9 nesta perspectiva que reparei que falta diversidade nos nossos m=E9to= dos de=20 > propaganda. Para este novo utilizador, =E9 preciso ver para crer e n=E3o = na sua=20 > m=E1quina.... > Ao mesmo tempo, a ANSOL t=EAm recebido convites para a participa=E7=E3o e= m feiras=20 > comerciais e exposi=E7=F5es. Nada de novo... [...] >=20 > Nas feiras, a ANSOL, poderia ter um conjunto de "apartamentos modelo", ou= =20 > seja, por exemplo, uma rede a simular o funcionamento de uma empresa, nas= =20 > v=E1rias vertentes (comer=E7ial, ofim=E1tica, produ=E7=E3o), mas de uma m= aneira=20 > realistica e at=E9 divertida (que por sua vez seria tamb=E9m educativa pa= ra quem=20 > nunca viu software na vida real, ficando-lhe o SL como refer=EAncia). Excelente ideia, assim ajudava-se a acabar com o FUD habitual. Entre uma pessoa ter curiosidade e se decidir a testar vai uma inercia enorme, assim punham-se os pontos nos ii e provava-se que as coisas funcionam. >=20 > Outro exemplo, o do utilizador pessoal, uma m=E1quina a mostrar os v=E1ri= os usos=20 > domesticos (jogos), ofim=E1tica, etc... > Exacto, mas acho que o mais importante sao as empresas porque estes sao movidos pelo facto de pouparem $$$, se se conquistarem as empresas o utilizador domestico vem por consequencia. =20 > Claro, que isto ainda se encontra no futuro, mas para o conseguirmos algu= ma=20 > vez obter, seria necess=E1rio, comer=E7armos a fazer uma lista (que tamb= =E9m=20 > funciona como estudo de mercado) de perfis de utilizador / aplica=E7=F5es= /usos=20 > habituais / e respectivas quotas de mercado por parte de fornecedores de= =20 > software propriet=E1rio. >=20 > Tal seria uma ajuda a quem quiser se envolver mais comercialmente no soft= ware=20 > livre. >=20 > ----------- >=20 > Outra =EDdeia: >=20 > A ANSOL poderia certificar instaladores de software livre. E disponibiliz= ar=20 > uma lista no site. [...] Estou curioso quanto ao desenvolvimento destas ideias, mas parecem-me muito boas. Ate breve Gustavo From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 11 23:15:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 11 22:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Convertendo os utilizadores ao software livre... alguns pensamentos... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018555752.1373.1.camel@roque> --=-xEejw+/aieLs8wr81tVd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eu so fiz uma apresentacao no trabalho e vieram logo 2 tipos perguntar-me o que precisavam apra comecar a instalar (tipo, espaco em disco, para reservar na proxima reinstalacao etc... Acho que vou organizar uma LIP la no trabalho :) hugs, rms ps: 2 parece pouco, mas isso faz mais ou menos 15% da audiencia :) On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 19:25, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > caros membros da lista, >=20 > Tenho reflectido sobre a quest=E3o de como convencer os utilizadores e o=20 > mercado da inform=E1tica a utilizar software livre. >=20 > Os m=E9todos actuais que utilizamos (gratuitidade do software, cria=E7=E3= o de=20 > comunidades, auto-ajuda) permite ao ne=F3fito (individuo que =E9 viciado = na=20 > novidade) entrar facilmente e participar, at=E9 contribuindo com novos=20 > projectos, patches, relat=F3rios de bugs, apoio local a outros utilizador= es,=20 > etc. >=20 > No entanto, queremos alcan=E7ar um p=FAblico mais vasto, que n=E3o t=EAm = as=20 > caracter=EDsticas do ne=F3fito tecnol=F3gico. =C9 necess=E1rio vender-lhe= a =EDdeia e a=20 > partir do momento que ele a comprou, pagar o pre=E7o establecido (a sua=20 > participa=E7=E3o =E9tica na comunidade). >=20 > =C9 nesta perspectiva que reparei que falta diversidade nos nossos m=E9to= dos de=20 > propaganda. Para este novo utilizador, =E9 preciso ver para crer e n=E3o = na sua=20 > m=E1quina.... > Ao mesmo tempo, a ANSOL t=EAm recebido convites para a participa=E7=E3o e= m feiras=20 > comerciais e exposi=E7=F5es. Nada de novo... >=20 > Pergunta: > Quando queremos comprar um apartamento num pr=E9dio em constru=E7=E3o, o = que=20 > normalmente fazemos? >=20 > Vamos ver o apartamento modelo, para ter uma =EDdeia de como v=E3o ser as= =20 > habita=E7=F5es... >=20 > Nas feiras, a ANSOL, poderia ter um conjunto de "apartamentos modelo", ou= =20 > seja, por exemplo, uma rede a simular o funcionamento de uma empresa, nas= =20 > v=E1rias vertentes (comer=E7ial, ofim=E1tica, produ=E7=E3o), mas de uma m= aneira=20 > realistica e at=E9 divertida (que por sua vez seria tamb=E9m educativa pa= ra quem=20 > nunca viu software na vida real, ficando-lhe o SL como refer=EAncia). >=20 > Outro exemplo, o do utilizador pessoal, uma m=E1quina a mostrar os v=E1ri= os usos=20 > domesticos (jogos), ofim=E1tica, etc... >=20 > Claro, que isto ainda se encontra no futuro, mas para o conseguirmos algu= ma=20 > vez obter, seria necess=E1rio, comer=E7armos a fazer uma lista (que tamb= =E9m=20 > funciona como estudo de mercado) de perfis de utilizador / aplica=E7=F5es= /usos=20 > habituais / e respectivas quotas de mercado por parte de fornecedores de=20 > software propriet=E1rio. >=20 > Tal seria uma ajuda a quem quiser se envolver mais comercialmente no soft= ware=20 > livre. >=20 > ----------- >=20 > Outra =EDdeia: >=20 > A ANSOL poderia certificar instaladores de software livre. E disponibiliz= ar=20 > uma lista no site. >=20 > O instalador cobraria um valor de servi=E7o (acordado entre os instalador= es ou=20 > talvez a ANSOL) por instala=E7=E3o e manuten=E7=E3o. >=20 > Instala=E7=F5es gratuitas seriam realizadas por quem quisesse.. no entant= o creio=20 > que o lugar ideal para a gratuidade, seriam as LIP's e as organiza=E7=F5e= s locais=20 > que para se disponibilizassem. >=20 > No entanto, o utilizador que desejasse ter um servi=E7o mais profissional= e de=20 > acordo com o seu tempo, poderia contactar um instalador e formador. >=20 > =C9 uma forma alternativa de criar fontes de rendimento de software livre= e por=20 > sua vez educar o mercado... >=20 > (al=E9m de permitir rendimentos =E0 comunidade e se iniciarem actividades= =20 > econ=F3micas =E1 volta do software livre) >=20 > A ida a LIPS permitiria al=E9m da gratuidade da instala=E7=E3o, dicas e n= ovidades,=20 > imbuir os potenciais utilizadores nos valores do Software livre. >=20 > Para tal, tamb=E9m conv=E9m que estes instaladores tenham um manual de tr= abalho e=20 > uma lista de informa=E7=F5es e valores a passar aos seus clientes. >=20 > ----------- >=20 > S=F3 alguns pensamentos... >=20 > Um abra=E7o, >=20 > Andr=E9 Esteves >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-xEejw+/aieLs8wr81tVd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8te1no+C50no0+t4RAq59AKCqAQAPS79HHeGB62RymOJaJyuPNQCffrA9 VAsrIUygB+sZcFCKw0VtMSo= =iOa6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-xEejw+/aieLs8wr81tVd-- From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 11 23:55:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Thu Apr 11 22:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nova_vers=E3o_do_regulamento_do_concurso?= Message-ID: <20020411225413.Q10060@fe.up.pt> --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by tweety.fe.up.pt id WAA19404 Viva, Junto envio uma nova vers=E3o do regulamento para o concurso de ideias pa= ra o logotipo. Por enquanto eliminei a sec=E7=E3o de pr=E9mios pois ainda n=E3= o est=E1 definido. O ficheiro que envio =E9 um ficheiro em texto ASCII, que pode ser usado p= ara produzir HTML, LaTeX, XHTML ou DocBook por meio dos comandos: parsewiki regulamento.txt >regulamento.html parsewiki -f latex regulamento.txt >regulamento.tex parsewiki -f xhtml regulamento.txt >regulamento.xhtml parsewiki -f docbook regulamento.txt >regulamento.xml Por favor visitem o site do Parsewiki: http://www.fe.up.pt/~villate/parse= wiki e ver=E3o que =E9 muito f=E1cil de usar. Espero com este trabalho contrib= uir =E0 extin=E7=E3o dos attachments de dif=EDcil leitura e modifica=E7=E3o. O xh= tml obtido com parsewiki pode entrar directamente no nosso site web; se houver interesse= , at=E9 passar a usar o formato wiki como formato no site, em vez do actual xhtml. Jaime --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="regulamento.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by tweety.fe.up.pt id WAA19404 =3D Concurso de Ideias para o Logotipo da ANSOL =3D =3D=3D Objectivo =3D=3D Este concurso tem como principal objectivo, a obten=E7=E3o de ideias para= o logotipo da ANSOL - Associa=E7=E3o Nacional para o Software Livre, o qual= ser=E1 usado como imagem futura da associa=E7=E3o, em toda a sua correspond=EAnc= ia, site, carimbos, outdoors, etc. =3D=3D Regulamento =3D=3D # Participa=E7=E3o ** Este concurso =E9 p=FAblico e podem tamb=E9m participar todos os membr= os da\ ANSOL, incluindo os seus associados e =F3rg=E3os directivos. ** Os trabalhos inscritos ser=E3o divulgados no site da ANSOL incluindo,\ ou n=E3o, conforme desejo do participante, o seu nome e contactos.\ # Logotipo ** O logotipo deve ser simples e de f=E1cil memoriza=E7=E3o, dever=E1 tam= b=E9m de se\ coadunar com os objectivos da ANSOL. ** Os trabalhos poder=E3o ser desenvolvidos em qualquer tipo de programa = e\ plataforma tecnologica, poder=E3o tamb=E9m possuir qualquer tipo de cor = ou\ tipologia. ** Os trabalhos dever=E3o ser entregues na forma de ficheiros ''JPEG'', '= 'PNG''\ ou ''PostScript'' com 140x140 pixels.\ # Apesar de n=E3o obrigat=F3rio, ser=E1 considerada a apresenta=E7=E3o do= logotipo\ aplicado em banner padr=E3o (468x60 pixels) e em mini-bot=F5es (85x32 pi= xels e\ 16x16 pixels).\ # O participante pode remeter mais que um trabalho, em v=E1rias vers=F5es= ou\ com tipologias diferentes.\ # Classifica=E7=E3o e vota=E7=E3o ** A escolha da ideia ganhadora, cair=E1 sobre a sua criativade e adequa=E7= =E3o\ ao tema, e a sua facilidade de ser representada em v=E1rios tamanhos sem= \ perder legibilidade ** O melhor logotipo ser=E1 selecionado pela ANSOL (Direc=E7=E3o e associ= ados)\ sendo a sua decis=E3o =FAnica e irrevog=E1vel, n=E3o existindo qualquer = direito\ a reclama=E7=E3o. ** Outras circunst=E2ncias n=E3o previstas neste regulamento ser=E3o solu= cionadas\ pela direc=E7=E3o da ANSOL, com resposta p=FAblica.\ # Direitos de Autor ** O participante dever=E1, se vencedor, ceder os direitos de autor totai= s\ =E0 ANSOL, bem como os direitos de modifica=E7=E3o de logotipo, caso sej= a\ necess=E1rio. ** A ANSOL elaborar=E1 o seu logotipo usando a ideia ganhadora e reserva-= se\ o direito de livre interpreta=E7=E3o da ideia inicial e escolha de cores= \ e fontes. ** O autor da ideia ganhadora ter=E1 oportunidade de conhecer a vers=E3o = final\ antes desta come=E7ar a ser usada, e poder=E1 decidir se pretende que o = seu\ nome continue associado =E0 ideia final ou n=E3o. Caso aceitar, a ANSOL\ compromete-se a fazer refer=EAncia =E0 participa=E7=E3o do autor.\ # Prazos ** Os trabalhos dever=E3o ser enviados por correio electr=F3nico para o\ endere=E7o ,,logotipo@ansol.org,,, contendo os seguintes elementos\ identificativos: nome, data de nascimento, morada, n=FAmero de telefone,= \ profiss=E3o, e-mail, indicando quais destes elementos autoriza a serem\ divulgados no site do concurso. ** O prazo de entrega dos trabalhos termina =E0s 24 horas do dia xpto. ** Todas as candidaturas recebidas posteriormente a esse prazo, n=E3o ser= =E3o\ consideradas.\ =09 # Altera=E7=F5es ao regulamento ** A ANSOL poder=E1 fazer altera=E7=F5es a este regulamento, se para tal = houver\ motivo ou necessidade.=20 ** Todas as altera=E7=F5es bem como a vers=E3o final deste documento, pod= em ser\ encontradas em http://www.ansol.org/logotipo/regulamento.html --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 12 01:12:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 00:12:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Slp - Update... Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, A lista de software livre português foi alterada, foram introduzidas mais 6 novas entradas, incluindo os projectos do Jaime Villate, Mário Gamito e do Rui Pedro Lopes do politécnico de Bragança. Aproveitem/Enjoy! O âmbito da página também foi alterado para incluir a participação em projectos internacionais de software livre. Os critérios de aceitação ainda estão a ser "ruminados", p.f. ainda estou á espera de opiniões... Um abraço, André Esteves From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 12 01:25:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Fri Apr 12 00:25:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Peru: Microsoft vs Solftware Livre --> 0-1 Message-ID: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> --=-ZiskrpHvJayJ7YH/eFHE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brutal e gigantesca derrota politica da Microsoft no Peru. O Peru esta prestes a adoptar leis que impoe o uso de Software Livre na Administracao Publica. A Microsoft, muito preocupada, corre a mandar um encarecido email literalmente choramingando o habitual chorilho de FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubpt) com o qual consegue cativar os menos precavidos. Azarinho hein? Apanharam um politico que realmente entende o Software Livre, e que nao sao rebateu ponto por ponto os argumentos da Microsoft, como enfia cestos de 3 pontos de formas tao artisticas que fariam os craques da NBA corar de inveja! De notar, em particular, o subtil duplo sentido da primeira frase da resposta: <> OUCH! Sao ambas em espanhol, mas nao e assim tao dificil de entender. Carta: http://www.gnu.org.pe/carta1.html Resposta: http://www.gnu.org.pe/rescon.html Um must! A resposta tambem serve para esclarecer muitas duvidas em respeito ao Software Livre e potencialidades de mercado. E quase uma FAQ de brutal qualidade. Parabens Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nu=F1ez Cumprimentos, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-ZiskrpHvJayJ7YH/eFHE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8tgvfo+C50no0+t4RAja2AJ9XMevlZ2VII8BiMu6+UQOd1EyaJQCeOaJq cPVvPTVyNDmD5YqiX0MLVGg= =lBV/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ZiskrpHvJayJ7YH/eFHE-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 12 03:41:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 02:41:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Cartaz do concurso de logotipo Message-ID: --------------Boundary-00=_UTLF2LZZC9VU2LPQH99L Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Caros membros da lista, Segue em anexo um ficheiro com um anúncio do concurso do logotipo, tal como foi acordado na assembleia geral. 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<200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020412025646.GC7781@queen.null.nil> --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:14:14AM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: >=20 > E nunca v=E3o aprender a imprimir Postscript se continuarmos a dar-lhes > PDF. Agora que Adobe j=E1 n=E3o deixa distribuir Acrobat Reader em Debian= (nem > ficando em non-free como estava de antes) a minha paix=E3o pelo PDF tem > enfraquecido bastante. A Adobe tamb=E9m criou o postscript e, pelo que sei, tamb=E9m nenhum dos pr= ogramas que eles fazem para visualizar postscript est=E3o na Debian. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tkzukNvNeN9nJYcRAs9aAKDUXDpf7pAbzBP0WYSZdqh7+2c/WACgganP lnBH+ymU1DVHHqyvj0TP5pA= =6+Zf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 12 05:10:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri Apr 12 04:10:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DRe=3A_=5BANSOL-geral=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <20020411093720.F10060@fe.up.pt> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411060128.GC1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411093720.F10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020412030902.GD7781@queen.null.nil> --HWvPVVuAAfuRc6SZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:37:20AM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:01:28AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > Normalmente (se n=E3o estou em erro) os =F3rg=E3os sociais n=E3o tomam = posse > > imediatamente, mas sim ap=F3s a assembleia, possivelmente uns dias mais= tarde. > > Os Estatutos da ANSOL, no seu artigo Nono, ponto 2, afirma que os =F3rg= =E3os > > sociais eleitos entram em fun=E7=F5es num prazo de 15 dias.=20 > > Ou seja, a Mesa da AG normalmente n=E3o muda a meio da assembleia, e as > > pessoas que s=E3o eleitas para a nova AG, como s=F3 tomar=E3o posse eve= ntualmente > > passados uns dias, s=F3 ir=E3o constituir a Mesa da AG na assembleia se= guinte. > > Assim, a acta =E9 assinada pela Mesa da AG "antiga" e n=E3o pela "nova". > > Estou convencido que isto =E9 assim, mas se estiver enganado digam. >=20 > Ent=E3o mais uma raz=E3o para fazermos uma acta e n=E3o duas. Se fazemos = duas actas, > o Vasco ainda n=E3o tinha entrado em fun=E7=F5es e n=E3o podia presidir a= segunda > assembleia. O Vitor no entanto foi nomeado "ad-hoc" tendo assim o direito= de > estar na mesa o tempo tudo. Aquele par=E1grafo referia a situa=E7=E3o normal, que n=E3o =E9 o nosso cas= o. Os =F3rg=E3os sociais entram em fun=E7=F5es num prazo de 15 dias, o que sig= nifica que t=EAm de tomar posse no m=E1ximo 15 dias depois da AG. Podem no entanto tomar posse imediatamente, que foi o que aconteceu. O Vasco (e todos os restantes elementos dos =F3rg=E3os sociais) entrou em fun=E7=F5es logo ap= =F3s a vota=E7=E3o da lista =FAnica concorrente. > > Agora quanto =E0 assinatura pela Comiss=E3o Instaladora. Eu acho que = =E9 necess=E1ria > > pois tem de haver um documento que comprove que aquela assembleia foi > > convocada e realizada com a autoriza=E7=E3o da CI. Caso contr=E1rio est= ou a > > imaginar o not=E1rio, a olhar para a acta e a dizer "Quem =E9 que me ga= rante > > que estas pessoas que assinam esta acta t=EAm poderes para tal? Os nome= s que > > eu tenho aqui na escritura n=E3o s=E3o estes. Isto n=E3o =E9 v=E1lido". >=20 > Tenho e-mail trocado entre a CI que comprova que os 3 estivemos de acordo= com > a convocat=F3ria. Se for preciso imprime-se, assina-mos e fica arquivado.= Tamb=E9m > tenho arquivados documentos (assinados e carimbados) para comprovar que a= s 24 > pessoas que participaram na assembleia j=E1 eram membros durante a Assemb= leia; > aceites pelo processo legal estipulado no regulamento. N=E3o temos que in= formar > ao not=E1rio cada vez que aceitamos um novo membro, pois n=E3o? Tenho muitas d=FAvidas se o not=E1rio aceitaria esses documentos. Por alguma raz=E3o se utilizam livros de actas e n=E3o documentos soltos. Assim garant= e-se, entre outras coisas, que n=E3o foram omitidos nem acrescentados documentos pois as p=E1ginas do livro de actas est=E3o numeradas. De qualquer maneira o melhor =E9 perguntar a um not=E1rio qual o procedimen= to correcto no nosso caso, para que n=E3o hajam d=FAvidas. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --HWvPVVuAAfuRc6SZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tk/OkNvNeN9nJYcRAmKMAJ9pnlZlZZRwaB+i9sjknDFxDi8d2wCcDu6j mSIVXJMgMS4jGOZmQchlOzA= =9cF+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HWvPVVuAAfuRc6SZ-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 12 05:13:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri Apr 12 04:13:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Distros, =?iso-8859-1?Q?d?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?istribui=E7=E3o?= em portugal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020412031142.GE7781@queen.null.nil> --WBsA/oQW3eTA3LlM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:15:41PM +0100, Jo=E3o Fernandes wrote: >=20 > p.s-Vamos l=E1 ver , se o mail chegou inteiro.... a semanas que n=E3o con= sigo=20 > enviar um unico e-mail para a lista! Jo=E3o, o problema deve estar do teu lado pois o que n=E3o tem faltado na lista s=E3o mensagens. :) Se precisares de ajuda a perceber onde est=E1 o problema avisa. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --WBsA/oQW3eTA3LlM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tlBukNvNeN9nJYcRAvy8AJ9xM69+BPbYKyQ+NZOcKBZiXhN+QwCgrYYJ 0TLD0BiraGYDTR4aRz0uvO8= =8JXi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WBsA/oQW3eTA3LlM-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 12 05:43:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri Apr 12 04:43:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Diversos... (uff) In-Reply-To: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020412034206.GF7781@queen.null.nil> --65ImJOski3p8EhYV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:18:23PM +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: >=20 > Antes de comecar a falar sobre o assunto, gostava de referir que eu nunca= usei outra distro que nao a RedHat :) .=20 Ainda vais a tempo de experimentar. :) > Gostaria de ver a ansol a distribuir _todas_ as distribuicoes existentes = no "mercado", desde as livre ate' 'as com software proprietario.=20 Distribuir software propriet=E1rio n=E3o =E9 um dos objectivos da ANSOL. Po= de-se mesmo argumentar que vai contra os seus princ=EDpios.=20 > No entanto, o merchandise nao fica por aqui. > Existem bones, lencos, autocolantes, toalhas, etc et al de todas as distr= os!=20 > Nao e' por a RedHat possuir ou nao software proprietario que deixamos de = vender o bone da redhat ou o chapeu mesmo vermelho de palhinhas ;) =20 Concordo com o Lopo quando ele afirma que n=E3o =E9 nossa miss=E3o servir de departamento de marketting das empresas. Da=ED que n=E3o vejo com bons olhos vender merchandising de que empresa for. > Neste ultimo caso, nos poderiamos mesmo ate' vender de tudo! (menos as ts= hirts de uma empresa de redmond) So' nos fazia bem ($$$)!=20 Vender t-shirts da Microsoft daria provavelmente mais dinheiro, pois o p=FAblico alvo =E9 maior. Al=E9m disso o stack tcp/ip da microsoft =E9 base= ado em software livre. > Acho que as formas de conseguirmos abater o saldo negativo e com isso con= seguir apoiar financeiramente alguns projectos, e' enorme! =20 O dinheiro =E9 importante, mas n=E3o =E9 o mais importante. O importante = =E9 levar a cabo os objectivos que est=E3o estabelecidos nos Estatutos, sem compromet= er os nossos princ=EDpios. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --65ImJOski3p8EhYV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tleOkNvNeN9nJYcRAlRyAKCM39wr7GIoxkBU6Wfbr4oOYjFptACfWsDM mV/TLX+RROJAM3KE2qPPOT4= =sifz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --65ImJOski3p8EhYV-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 12 06:01:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri Apr 12 05:01:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> --ahP6B03r4gLOj5uD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:46:54AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: >=20 > Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANSOL, = que=20 > eventualmente ainda n=E3o dominem bem o formato de documentos estranhos= =20 > (leia-se formatos !=3D .doc). O formato do Word est=E1 fora de hip=F3tese, pois =E9 propriet=E1rio, e ser= ia uma inconsist=EAncia da nossa parte estar, por um lado a [0] exercer press=F5es pol=EDticas para a utiliza=E7=E3o de formatos abertos, e por outro lado a utilizar esses mesmos formatos.=20 [0] http://www.ansol.org/politica/ --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --ahP6B03r4gLOj5uD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tlvSkNvNeN9nJYcRAgPAAJ9Mb2paBMtjEwcXj1i13DVZdGb0fACeIRnw TDY9AdB1H9Z6DcSJ29PZ1ug= =hzUH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ahP6B03r4gLOj5uD-- From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Fri Apr 12 06:24:02 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Fri Apr 12 05:24:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020412041919.GP4053@artenumerica.com> * Ruben Leote Mendes [2002-04-12 05:00 +0000]: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:46:54AM +0100, Mário Gamito wrote: > > > > Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANSOL, que > > eventualmente ainda não dominem bem o formato de documentos estranhos > > (leia-se formatos != .doc). > > O formato do Word está fora de hipótese, pois é proprietário, e seria uma > inconsistência da nossa parte estar, por um lado a [0] exercer pressões > políticas para a utilização de formatos abertos, e por outro lado a > utilizar esses mesmos formatos. Para além de ficheiros mais ou menos bonitos há sempre a hipótese mais "KISS" possível. Exemplo: quando http://josemata.org/ee/encomendar/ causa muita fobia|perplexidade (e mesmo esse pode ser impresso), resta a possibilidade http://josemata.org/ee/encomendar/eefcg.txt A versão em texto simples até em impressora de margarida imprimiria... haja iso-8859-1 (só fica um bocado piorada se o browser decidir imprimir usando caracteres sem largura fixa). Mas se for preciso também se faz uma versão ASCII. From ruben arroba nocturno.org Fri Apr 12 07:22:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Fri Apr 12 06:22:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Peru: Microsoft vs Solftware Livre --> 0-1 In-Reply-To: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> References: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020412052105.GH7781@queen.null.nil> --8/pVXlBMPtxfSuJG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:19:12PM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: >=20 > Carta: http://www.gnu.org.pe/carta1.html > Resposta: http://www.gnu.org.pe/rescon.html >=20 > Um must! A resposta tambem serve para esclarecer muitas duvidas em > respeito ao Software Livre e potencialidades de mercado. E quase uma FAQ > de brutal qualidade. >=20 > Parabens Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nu=F1ez Est=E1 de parab=E9ns sem d=FAvida alguma, assim como toda a equipa GNU Peru! Na p=E1gina web deles encontram-se mais algumas p=E9rolas, como o texto de [0] dois projectos de lei (um deles =E9 o que o Presidente da Microsoft e o Dr. Nu=F1ez discutem, calculo eu), [1] um link para uma p=E1gina na Argenti= na onde listam outros projectos de lei propostos em v=E1rios pa=EDses, e uma hilariante campanha de promo=E7=E3o chamada [2] "Quero que me ponham os cor= nos".=20 A n=E3o perder! E a estudar com aten=E7=E3o para ver o que podemos usar por= c=E1! P.S. O projecto de lei est=E1 sob a licen=E7a GPL. [0] http://www.gnu.org.pe/proleyap.html [1] http://www.grulic.org.ar/proposicion/doc/referencias.html [2] http://www.gnu.org.pe/publignu.html --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --8/pVXlBMPtxfSuJG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8tm7AkNvNeN9nJYcRAt9fAKCnVV9p2JD8Ngln0RtnwvOWenb+FACaA/K/ jJDy5O+1JZAmaQRxFdxAg3M= =KaX7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8/pVXlBMPtxfSuJG-- From gamito arroba startux.org Fri Apr 12 10:50:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 09:50:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <200204131044.13545.gamito@startux.org> Ois! On Friday 12 April 2002 05:00, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:46:54AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANS= OL, > > que eventualmente ainda n=E3o dominem bem o formato de documentos est= ranhos > > (leia-se formatos !=3D .doc). > > O formato do Word est=E1 fora de hip=F3tese, pois =E9 propriet=E1rio, e= seria uma > inconsist=EAncia da nossa parte estar, por um lado a [0] exercer press=F5= es > pol=EDticas para a utiliza=E7=E3o de formatos abertos, e por outro lado= a > utilizar esses mesmos formatos. > > [0] http://www.ansol.org/politica/ Leste mal. L=EA outra vez: "leia-se formatos !=3D .doc" Entendido ? M=E1rio Gamito From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 12 11:07:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Fri Apr 12 10:07:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020412025646.GC7781@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:56:46AM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <20020412025646.GC7781@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020412100619.T10060@fe.up.pt> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 03:56:46AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:14:14AM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: > >=20 > > E nunca v=E3o aprender a imprimir Postscript se continuarmos a dar-lh= es > > PDF. Agora que Adobe j=E1 n=E3o deixa distribuir Acrobat Reader em De= bian (nem > > ficando em non-free como estava de antes) a minha paix=E3o pelo PDF t= em > > enfraquecido bastante. >=20 > A Adobe tamb=E9m criou o postscript e, pelo que sei, tamb=E9m nenhum do= s > programas que eles fazem para visualizar postscript est=E3o na Debian. Antes de existir o GNU/Linux, j=E1 existia o Ghostscript e j=E1 implement= ava muito vem o Postscript (eu come=E7ei a usar o ghostscript em 1990). N=E3o preci= samos de nenhum dos programas da Adobe para visualizar Postscript, porque o Ghosts= cript =E9 excelente, o que tem valido que seja hoje em dia standard em qualquer GNU/Linux. No caso do PDF, n=E3o existe nenhum programa livre que implemente totalme= nte o PDF. Coisas como thumbnails, outlines (uma barra de navega=E7=E3o no lado= esquerdo que quem nunca tenha usado Acrobat Reader provavelmente nunca imaginou qu= e existia) e forms que o Acrobat Reader suporta n=E3o se conseguem ver com = nenhum programa livre. Existem tamb=E9m certas optimiza=E7=F5es feitas pelo Acro= bat distiller que fazem com que o ficheiro PDF resultante s=F3 possa ser visu= alizado com Acrobat Reader. Os programas livres nessa =E1rea t=EAm ainda que evol= uir muito antes de poderem ser substitutos para o Acrobat Reader. O ghostscript (e varias interfaces gr=E1ficas) instalam-se facilmente em = Windows e Macintosh. O que acontece =E9 que as pessoas n=E3o sabem e os autores n= =E3o costumam usar nas suas p=E1ginas um bot=E3o que aponte para um site onde descarregar o ghostscript, como =E9 o caso com o famoso bot=E3o do Acroba= t Reader. Temos dois formatos que podemos usar para documentos prontos a imprimir. = No caso do primeiro formato, os utilizadores de software livre est=E3o em cl= ara desvantagem perante os utilizadores de software propriet=E1rio. No segund= o caso os utilizadores de software livre est=E3o muito mais a bontade que os utilizadores de software propriet=E1rio. A ANSOL tem como objectivo fomen= tar o uso do software livre. A qual dos dois formatos dever=E1 dar prefer=EAnci= a a ANSOL? Cumprimentos, Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 12 11:22:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Fri Apr 12 10:22:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5DPlano_de_ac=E7=E3o_imediato?= In-Reply-To: <20020412030902.GD7781@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:09:02AM +0100 References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <20020410222119.Y7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411060128.GC1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411093720.F10060@fe.up.pt> <20020412030902.GD7781@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020412102027.U10060@fe.up.pt> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:09:02AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Tenho muitas d=FAvidas se o not=E1rio aceitaria esses documentos. Por a= lguma > raz=E3o se utilizam livros de actas e n=E3o documentos soltos. Assim ga= rante-se, > entre outras coisas, que n=E3o foram omitidos nem acrescentados documen= tos > pois as p=E1ginas do livro de actas est=E3o numeradas. >=20 > De qualquer maneira o melhor =E9 perguntar a um not=E1rio qual o proced= imento > correcto no nosso caso, para que n=E3o hajam d=FAvidas. Se o Vasco e o Vitor concordam contigo, ent=E3o sugiro que avan=E7em e es= crevam as duas actas, e digam durante este fim de semana quem as tem que assinar pa= ra combinarmos como vamos fazer. Isto tem que ser feito urgentemente pois precisamos ter uma acta assinada para levar ao banco e pedir que autorize= m ao Rui a movimentar a conta. Jaime From gach arroba mega.ist.utl.pt Fri Apr 12 12:39:02 2002 From: gach arroba mega.ist.utl.pt (Gustavo Alberto Homem) Date: Fri Apr 12 11:39:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Convertendo os utilizadores ao software livre... alguns pensamentos... In-Reply-To: <20020411210222.6C91711DF8D@mega.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: >=20 > Ol=E1 gustavo!!! >=20 > =09N=E3o sei se te lembras de mim , eu h=E1 algum tempo tive a ideia de t= e ajudar a=20 > realizar a faq de linux. Entretanto tive alguns problemas de sa=FAde e es= tive=20 > afastado de computadores. Penso que seria altura certa para avan=E7ar com= o=20 > projecto inserido na ANSOL. O que achas? >=20 > abra=E7os >=20 > Jo=E3o fernandes Ola, Acho bem se a ANSOL vir interesse nisso. A versao actual esta' em xut.homeip.net/faqlinux .=20 Ate breve Gustavo From hnogueira arroba april.org Fri Apr 12 15:44:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Fri Apr 12 14:44:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fwd: [APRIL] Microsoft Attacks Free Software Developers with New License Message-ID: <3C9BF4AE0041265B@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) A M$ declara a guerra ao Software Livre : http://www.fsf.org/press/2002-04-11-ms-patent.html Hugo. From gamito arroba startux.org Fri Apr 12 16:11:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-15?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 15:11:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fwd: [APRIL] Microsoft Attacks Free Software Developers with New License In-Reply-To: <3C9BF4AE0041265B@mail.libertysurf.net> References: <3C9BF4AE0041265B@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: <200204131606.14500.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > A M$ declara a guerra ao Software Livre : > > http://www.fsf.org/press/2002-04-11-ms-patent.html S=F3 posso dizer: "Her=F3is do mar nobre povo Na=E7=E3o valente imortal Entre as brumas da mem=F3ria =D3 P=E1tria ergue-se a voz Dos nossos egr=E9gio av=F3s Que h=E1-de guiar-nos =E0 vit=F3ria =C0s armas, =E0s armas Sobre a terra, sobre o mar =C0s armas, =E0s armas Pela P=E1tria lutar Contra os canh=F5es, marchar, marchar." M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8uElk7rbuNNzNkCIRAs4xAJ9CdaFrqHpWVKRI8KFULwRAA+2hIgCcCQ5p WaJUcL6m2mwTEY1OiTGUp2I=3D =3D+DjX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 12 16:33:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 15:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fwd: [APRIL] Microsoft Attacks Free Software Developers with New License In-Reply-To: <3C9BF4AE0041265B@mail.libertysurf.net> References: <3C9BF4AE0041265B@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: Em Sexta, 12 de Abril de 2002 14:35, escreveste: > A M$ declara a guerra ao Software Livre : > > http://www.fsf.org/press/2002-04-11-ms-patent.html > > Hugo. > Isto só demonstra que a Microsoft olhou para o processo Anti-Manopólio, como uma piada... E que os tribunais americanos já sabiam á partida o resultado que iria sair. André Esteves From fmaia arroba gmx.net Fri Apr 12 16:45:02 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Fri Apr 12 15:45:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Peru: Microsoft vs Solftware Livre --> 0-1 In-Reply-To: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> References: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020412153716.3064e980.fmaia@gmx.net> > > Um must! A resposta tambem serve para esclarecer muitas duvidas em > respeito ao Software Livre e potencialidades de mercado. E quase uma FAQ > de brutal qualidade. > > Parabens Dr. Edgar David Villanueva Nuñez > Simplesmente brilhante. -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From figueira arroba europe.com Fri Apr 12 18:33:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Plano de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ac=E7=E3o?= imediato In-Reply-To: <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> References: <20020410111625.N7464@fe.up.pt> <20020410182206.GC30916@queen.null.nil> <1018474343.896.19.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1018627586.462.3.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 22:32, Rui Leite wrote: > Vamos n=E3o esquecer uma coisa. Isto =E9 uma associa=E7=E3o sem fins lucr= ativos. > Em princ=EDpio a principal fonte de receitas dever=E1 ser as quotas pagas > pelos s=F3cios. N=E3o confundamos as coisas. Ser "sem fins lucrativos" apenas obriga a que os lucros obtidos sejam aplicados na prossecu=E7=E3o dos objectivos, e n=E3= o repartidos pelos seus membros ou accionistas. Mais nada. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Fri Apr 12 18:33:06 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Fri Apr 12 17:33:06 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O uso =?iso-8859-15?q?do chap=E9u=20GNU?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20trazconsequ=EAncias sociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) References: <20020410190709.R7464@fe.up.pt> <1018462596.8252.3.camel@jung> <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: <1018627929.461.9.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 22:39, Hugo Nogueira wrote: > > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 19:07, Jaime E. Villate wrote: > > > Claro que sim, podemos e devemos come=E7ar a vender material pois > > > enquandra-se perfeitamente dentro dos nossos objectivos de divulga=E7= =E3o do > > > software livre. Mas nada que fa=E7a refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais = como > > > SUSE ou Redhat. Melhor Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ... > > > > Porqu=EA? >=20 > Porque temos de manter independencia no discurso quanto a interesses > comerciais. As marcas comerciais tem interesses em dinheiro. Fazer=20 > refer=EAncia a marcas comerciais =E9 fazer publicidade para empresas que > tem como ojectivo implicito de ganhar dinheiro. Ah. Os vis interesses comerciais. > A ANSOL nao faz publicidade para tal ou tal marca para que a empresa > que a possui fa=E7a dinheiro. A ANSOL =E9 independente quanto a isso. > Portanto so podemos fazer referencia a entidades nao comerciais porque > nao tem como objectivo de fazer dinheiro. Assim podemos fazer=20 > referencia a associa=E7oes e organismos a fims nao lucrativos > (Debian, FSFE, April, ASSOLI, ADALA, ...). Ou podemos fazer refer=EAncia a todas. Assim n=E3o causamos favorecimentos fora do espectro da nossa imparcialidade. Assim talvez consigamos fazer chegar ao consumidor um melhor servi=E7o ou produto. N=E3o? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From Diogo Santos Fri Apr 12 18:56:02 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Fri Apr 12 17:56:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Fwd: [APRIL] Microsoft Attacks Free Software Developers with New License Message-ID: Falhaste dois versos e uma palavra :O > Só posso dizer: > > "Heróis do mar nobre povo > Nação valente imortal Levantai hoje de novo <--Faltava o esplendor de Portugal <--Faltava Por entre as brumas da memória <--Faltava o Por > Ó Pátria ergue-se a voz > Dos nossos egrégio avós > Que há-de guiar-nos à vitória > > Às armas, às armas > Sobre a terra, sobre o mar > Às armas, às armas > Pela Pátria lutar > Contra os canhões, > marchar, marchar." > > Mário Gamito Fiquem bem ;) Diogo Santos -- 10Mb na sua caixa de email gratuita no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From figueira arroba europe.com Fri Apr 12 19:15:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Fri Apr 12 18:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Convertendo os utilizadores ao software livre... alguns pensamentos... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018631333.461.24.camel@jung> Viva, On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 19:25, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > No entanto, queremos alcan=E7ar um p=FAblico mais vasto, que n=E3o t=EAm = as=20 > caracter=EDsticas do ne=F3fito tecnol=F3gico. =C9 necess=E1rio vender-lhe= a =EDdeia e a=20 > partir do momento que ele a comprou, pagar o pre=E7o establecido (a sua=20 > participa=E7=E3o =E9tica na comunidade). Exactamente. > Nas feiras, a ANSOL, poderia ter um conjunto de "apartamentos modelo", ou= =20 > seja, por exemplo, uma rede a simular o funcionamento de uma empresa, nas= =20 > v=E1rias vertentes (comer=E7ial, ofim=E1tica, produ=E7=E3o), mas de uma m= aneira=20 > realistica e at=E9 divertida (que por sua vez seria tamb=E9m educativa pa= ra quem=20 > nunca viu software na vida real, ficando-lhe o SL como refer=EAncia). As demonstra=E7=F5es n=E3o se limitarem a umas aplica=E7=F5es de office, ma= s terem uma dimens=E3o maior, ao n=EDvel de empresa... Sim, sem d=FAvida. H=E1 not=EDcias quanto =E0 nossa participa=E7=E3o na FIL? > Outra =EDdeia: >=20 > A ANSOL poderia certificar instaladores de software livre. E disponibiliz= ar=20 > uma lista no site. >=20 > O instalador cobraria um valor de servi=E7o (acordado entre os instalador= es ou=20 > talvez a ANSOL) por instala=E7=E3o e manuten=E7=E3o. Hum... Eu deixava-me ficar pela lista de empresas que trabalham com SL. Certificar instaladores? Talvez demasiado pantanoso, n=E3o? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Fri Apr 12 19:39:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Fri Apr 12 18:39:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]bitaites para o ar -- lista Message-ID: <1018632748.462.29.camel@jung> Viva, C=E1 vai bitaite: * acertem a hora do computador. * respondam para a lista s=F3 quando tem a ver * respondam para a lista *sempre* que tem a ver * se responderem para a lista, respondam s=F3 para a lista (mensagens duplicadas). O tr=E1fego come=E7a a ser muito e mesmo que consigamos acompanhar, perdemo= s tempo com coisas que se calhar n=E3o valia a pena. Obrigado, e desculpem o moralismo. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Fri Apr 12 21:47:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Fri Apr 12 20:47:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Cartaz do concurso de logotipo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020412204154.2f5d7ff1.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Viva Andre, Consideracoes relativamente ao anuncio: - Os Tils' e cedilhas da frase por cima do nome do concurso estao meio es= quesitas, nao ? - Penso que poderemos retirar o "jovem" de "Somos uma jovem associacao". - Esta'-se a dar um sentido .. err.. demasiado juvenil 'a associacao. - Preteria que fosse "Somos uma associa=E7=E3o nacional" - De resto, acho que contempla e "chama" algumas pessoas ao concurso. ----- - Coisas necessarias: - Criar a pagina com o anuncio e o regulamento em: - http://www.ansol.org/logotipo - Defenir quem recebe o email com os trabalhados e criar uma area para = o colocar, de forma que todos consigam ver os trabalhos enviados ate' ao= momento.=20 - logotipo@ansol.org ----- On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 02:37:06 +0100 Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Caros membros da lista, >=20 > Segue em anexo um ficheiro com um an=FAncio do concurso do logotipo, ta= l como=20 > foi acordado na assembleia geral. >=20 > As vossas opini=F5es/sugest=F5es, >=20 > Um abra=E7o, >=20 > Andr=E9 Esteves ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 12 23:35:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 22:35:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Vers=E3o=20corrigida=20do?= cartaz... Message-ID: Desculpem-me lá, mas eu adoro aquela font... :) A vossa opinião/sugestão, André Esteves From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 12 23:37:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 12 22:37:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Vers=E3o=20corrigida=20do?= cartaz... Message-ID: --------------Boundary-00=_Y65H3Q16NKN7KCWLBKW2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Desculpem-me lá, mas eu adoro aquela font... :) A vossa opinião/sugestão, André Esteves --------------Boundary-00=_Y65H3Q16NKN7KCWLBKW2 Content-Type: image/png; name="concurso_logotipo_ANSOL.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="concurso_logotipo_ANSOL.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAoAAAAHgCAIAAAC6s0uzAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAZiS0dE AP8A/wD/oL2nkwAAAAlwSFlzAAALEgAACxIB0t1+/AAAAAd0SU1FB9IEDBUdJ2z/thAAACAASURB VHic7J15fEzn+sDfs8y+ZE9EMpGF2PctCbFrVbWlJHatW1uXq5IoVZQqt1pkVFVblNJSklK7Woog yVAaqSy2CMlE9sxk9uUsvz+ea+78LBEyWarn+/HxmZx5zznPmSHP++wYy7KIg4ODg4ODo2HBG1sA Dg4ODg6OfyKcAubg4ODg4GgEOAXMwcHBwcHRCHAKmIODg4ODoxHgFDAHBwcHB0cjwClgDg4ODg6O RoBTwBwcHBwcHI0Ap4A5ODg4ODgaAU4Bc3BwcHBwNAKcAubg4ODg4GgEOAXMwcHBwcHRCHAKmIOD g4ODoxHgFDAHBwcHB0cjwClgDg4ODg6ORoBTwBwcHBwcHI0Ap4A5ODg4ODgaAU4Bc3BwcHBwNAKc 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In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020413000706.3bc1f469.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Eu nao tenho problemas na font! Mas o acento da palavra "Tem" nao se perc= ebe. Eu, pensaria que era erro tipografico! Alem disso o til do "n=E3o", parec= e um "corno". Pode ser de mim e das horas. Mas nao consigo ver isso de outra forma. Agora, houve aqui uma luzinha que se acendeu ao re-ler o anuncio... Nao e' conceber o logotipo.. mas sim uma ideia para o logotipo. Nao sei se pode ser considerado falacia! Porque realmente poderemos nao u= sar o logotipo criado pelos participantes, usufruindo apenas a ideia. No entanto nao imagino outra forma apelativa 'a participacao... "Concebe uma ideia para logotipo" ...??? "Concurso de Ideias de Logotipo da ANSOL" ... ??? "Ideia para Logotipo da ANSOL" ... ??? (retirei-lhe o "Concurso") .. On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 22:32:58 +0100 Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Desculpem-me l=E1, mas eu adoro aquela font... :) >=20 > A vossa opini=E3o/sugest=E3o, >=20 > Andr=E9 Esteves >=20 >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From gamito arroba startux.org Sat Apr 13 01:28:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-15?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Sat Apr 13 00:28:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Porque =?iso-8859-15?q?ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 =2E.. que eu n=E3o reconhe=E7o no cartaz do concurso o logotipo da minha=20 distribui=E7=E3o que tamb=E9m =E9 software livre ? Bolas, como =E9 que assim vou poder concorrer ? Deixem-se estar assim a ver o mundo a preto e branco, com bons e maus, in= d=EDos=20 e cob=F3is que v=E3o bem. Eu c=E1, (se calhar =E9 da PDI) vejo mais o mun= do em=20 tonalidades de cinzento. J=E1 perdi a f=E9 em =EDdolatrias (todas t=EAm p=E9s de barro e esqueleto= s no arm=E1rio) e=20 em verdades absolutas e imut=E1veis. Por este andar ainda hei-de ver os padres poderem casar antes de a ANSOL = ter=20 um esp=EDrito um bocadinho mais aberto para outras coisas que n=E3o aquel= es=20 bonequinhos do png. Bem, esta deve ser mesmo uma das =FAltimas mensagens para a lista. Pelo menos at=E9 ver mais bom senso e largura de horizontes e como nunca=20 comunguei da m=E1xima "se n=E3o os podes vencer, junta-te a eles", vou a = banhos.=20 Ali=E1s, tenho que passar 8 horas por dia ocupado a dar o meu contributo = caseiro=20 para os mel=F5es em cima da mesa. Tenho a certeza que quando muitos daqui= =20 chegarem a esse dia, come=E7am a ver os tais tons de cinzento a aparecer. Tenho a sorte de p=F4r mel=F5es na mesa, trabalhando com Linux e outro so= ftware=20 livre. Mas sem dogmas. Going to read-only mode... M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8uMvs7rbuNNzNkCIRAj3sAJ40IeWaoR8KYZNrBzB9n7PzIDtMzACfTnar 2L5nuCNrxqIGpRV2XEZo9kk=3D =3DOvtI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gamito arroba startux.org Sat Apr 13 01:53:01 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Sat Apr 13 00:53:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Adenda ao mail [Porque =?iso-8859-1?q?ser=E1=2E=2E=2E=5D?= Message-ID: <200204140148.34526.gamito@startux.org> --------------Boundary-00=_YW8J0WLCSSUXHACOQ25P Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Viva! Para que n=E3o se diga que critico sem contribuir, junto a minha modesta=20 contribui=E7=E3o para o cartaz. Chamo em particular =E0 aten=E7=E3o para o logotipo do PHP. =C9 que se perguntarem a 100 pessoas que nunca ouviram falar em software = Livre,=20 Linux (desculpe, GNU/Linux) e afins, se j=E1 viram URLs terminados em .ph= p v=E3o=20 ver que pelo menos 99 v=E3o dizer que sim. 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(=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:02:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Porque =?iso-8859-15?q?ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: Em Domingo, 14 de Abril de 2002 01:23, escreveste: > ... que eu não reconheço no cartaz do concurso o logotipo da minha > distribuição que também é software livre ? > > Bolas, como é que assim vou poder concorrer ? Que distribuição? Nem toda a gente está engajada como tu... eu não passo de um gajo com tempo entre as mãos... Não tenho os recursos que tu tens, nem me posso dar a ares que tenho... Se o logotipo da tua tua distribuição não está lá, é porque: 1º Não há muito espaço!! Só há aquele.. E o que queres que eu ponha lá? Tiro o tux para pôr o quê? Tiro o Gnu para pôr o quê? 2º Foi o resultado da minha imaginação.... Não gostas diz OBJECTIVAMENTE do que não gostas!!!! Se está lá a debian é porque era o que estava á mão... Em vez de mandares bocas desgarradas para as vaidades, podias sugerir alguma coisa!!!! Queres por o logo do red hat? do mandrake? do suse? do quê? Eu até ponho todos! Juntamente com a debian? Tudo bem.. mas podes dar alguma informação relevante e construtiva??? Olá!?? Está alguém em casa???? > Deixem-se estar assim a ver o mundo a preto e branco, com bons e maus, > indíos e cobóis que vão bem. Eu cá, (se calhar é da PDI) vejo mais o mundo > em tonalidades de cinzento. > > Já perdi a fé em ídolatrias (todas têm pés de barro e esqueletos no > armário) e em verdades absolutas e imutáveis. > Por este andar ainda hei-de ver os padres poderem casar antes de a ANSOL > ter um espírito um bocadinho mais aberto para outras coisas que não aqueles > bonequinhos do png. > > Bem, esta deve ser mesmo uma das últimas mensagens para a lista. > Pelo menos até ver mais bom senso e largura de horizontes e como nunca > comunguei da máxima "se não os podes vencer, junta-te a eles", vou a > banhos. > > Aliás, tenho que passar 8 horas por dia ocupado a dar o meu contributo > caseiro para os melões em cima da mesa. Tenho a certeza que quando muitos > daqui chegarem a esse dia, começam a ver os tais tons de cinzento a > aparecer. > Tenho a sorte de pôr melões na mesa, trabalhando com Linux e outro software > livre. Mas sem dogmas. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.... Obrigado por fazê-lo á minha custa e do meu trabalho, não é com o meu respeito com que ficas.... Não sou de equipas, nem de simpatias. O que é que eu te fiz? O que é que o meu tempo e disponibilidade te fez para te ofender? Puz o meu trabalho e o meu esforço para a avaliação de todos e é assim que me tratas.? Achas que eu sou um bonequinho telecomandado? Tu é que pareces comandado pelos teus demónios interiores... > Going to read-only mode... > > Mário Gamito André Esteves From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 13 02:32:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:32:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPorque_ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:23:04AM +0100 References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020413012729.A4107@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 01:23:04AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > ... que eu n=E3o reconhe=E7o no cartaz do concurso o logotipo da minha=20 > distribui=E7=E3o que tamb=E9m =E9 software livre ? Talvez por n=E3o haver espa=E7o e assim terem decidido por o logotipo de apenas uma distribui=E7=E3o. E assim talvez tenham decidido escolher a qu= e melhor representa o movimento de software livre. E talvez porque afinal a escolhida j=E1 existe, enquanto que a caixa m=E1gica ainda se encontre em pr=E9-release. E afinal, n=E3o =E9 perguntado se se 'reconhece algum dos logotipos'? > Deixem-se estar assim a ver o mundo a preto e branco, com bons e maus, = ind=EDos=20 > e cob=F3is que v=E3o bem. Eu c=E1, (se calhar =E9 da PDI) vejo mais o m= undo em=20 > tonalidades de cinzento. O mundo =E9 a preto e branco, mas quem quiser v=EA-lo a tons de cinzento = tem apenas que desfocar a vis=E3o. A FSF decide n=E3o fazer isso, e a ANSOL, = como representante portuguesa da FSF e do software livre decide fazer o mesmo.= =20 Por vezes considero a atitude da FSF muito extremista, mas algu=E9m tem q= ue o ser... > J=E1 perdi a f=E9 em =EDdolatrias (todas t=EAm p=E9s de barro e esquele= tos no arm=E1rio) > e em verdades absolutas e imut=E1veis. Talvez precises de saber o que =E9 idolatria, e o que =E9 verdade. > Ali=E1s, tenho que passar 8 horas por dia ocupado a dar o meu contribut= o caseiro=20 > para os mel=F5es em cima da mesa. Tenho a certeza que quando muitos daq= ui=20 > chegarem a esse dia, come=E7am a ver os tais tons de cinzento a aparece= r. Muitos daqui j=E1 o fazem (eu n=E3o), e muitos daqui tamb=E9m passam muit= as horas por dia ocupados em promover software livre e na ANSOL. Acho que merecem por isso maior respeito quando se mant=EAm fi=E9is ao que acredit= am. > Tenho a sorte de p=F4r mel=F5es na mesa, trabalhando com Linux e outro = software=20 > livre. Mas sem dogmas. Dogmas? As raz=F5es da ANSOL promover o software livre, deste proteger a nossa liberdade e o propriet=E1rio ir contra a nossa liberdade, encontram= -se amplamente explanadas nos v=E1rios FAQs da ANSOL e FSF. > Going to read-only mode... Tens manifestado interesse em software livre e em promov=EA-lo. E que, de certo modo, podes contribuir para isso. Por isso te inscreveste nesta lista. Ires agora para modo apenas de leitura demonstra que afinal esta lista, e a ANSOL, n=E3o =E9 o que esperavas, e assim deixar=E1s de contribuir. Mas tamb=E9m que esperas mudan=E7as apenas do outro lado. Se assim n=E3o =E9, retorna ao modo anterior e continua a contribuir. Caso contr=E1rio estar=E1s apenas a perder o teu tempo, e assim talvez seja melhor sa=EDres completamente. Cumprimentos, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From gamito arroba startux.org Sat Apr 13 02:34:02 2002 From: gamito arroba startux.org (=?iso-8859-15?q?M=E1rio=20Gamito?=) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:34:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Porque =?iso-8859-15?q?ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <200204140229.22034.gamito@startux.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Viva! > 2=BA Foi o resultado da minha imagina=E7=E3o.... N=E3o gostas diz OBJEC= TIVAMENTE do > que n=E3o gostas!!!! Eu disse. N=E3o (entre)leste ? > Se est=E1 l=E1 a debian =E9 porque era o que estava =E1 m=E3o... Em vez= de mandares > bocas desgarradas para as vaidades, podias sugerir alguma coisa!!!! J=E1 o fiz antes de escreveres esta resposta. Concerteza que j=E1 tinhas lido o mail da adenda com os attatchments. > Queres por o logo do red hat? do mandrake? do suse? do qu=EA? Eu at=E9 = ponho > todos! Juntamente com a debian? Tudo bem.. mas podes dar alguma informa= =E7=E3o > relevante e construtiva??? Ol=E1!?? Est=E1 algu=E9m em casa???? Idem. > Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.... > > Obrigado por faz=EA-lo =E1 minha custa e do meu trabalho, n=E3o =E9 com= o meu > respeito com que ficas.... Com blah blahs tamb=E9m n=E3o ficas com o meu, but who cares ? > N=E3o sou de equipas, nem de simpatias. Ahh! Voil=E1. > O que =E9 que eu te fiz? Nada como =E9 =F3bvio. Ora essa. > O que =E9 que o meu tempo e disponibilidade te fez para te ofender? Aonde =E9 que eu escrevi que me ofendeste ? > Puz o meu trabalho e o meu esfor=E7o para a avalia=E7=E3o de todos e =E9= assim que > me tratas.? Assim como ? Eu at=E9 generalizei. S=F3 usei plurais. > Achas que eu sou um bonequinho telecomandado? ??? M=E1rio Gamito -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8uNts7rbuNNzNkCIRAvjEAJ9wxGllSItEc5T0XjhioT/V+qyLhgCglsNK UXQW5IT1mofJHxLoDnYn8nQ=3D =3DVAJV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sat Apr 13 02:40:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:40:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sobre o meu trabalho Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, Quem têm seguido a lista, pode PERFEITAMENTE verificar que eu não dou um passo sem o comunicar á lista e auscultar a opinião dos membros. E sempre o farei. André Esteves From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 13 02:42:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:42:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPorque_ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200204140229.22034.gamito@startux.org>; from gamito@startux.org on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 02:29:12AM +0100 References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> <200204140229.22034.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020413013739.A6129@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 02:29:12AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > J=E1 o fiz antes de escreveres esta resposta. > Concerteza que j=E1 tinhas lido o mail da adenda com os attatchments. Talvez n=E3o. Eu recebi primeiro a resposta dele que a tua adenda (estava= no meio da escrita da minha resposta). Mas relativamente ao cartaz, n=E3o gosto do tom geral, parece-me muito juvenil, n=E3o muito professional. Tamb=E9m n=E3o gosto dos espa=E7os ant= es dos '?' e o ? da ANSOL devia ser mais proeminente. Outra coisa, tamb=E9m n=E3o gosto muito de o concurso ser para uma ideia = de um logotipo. Uma coisa =E9 concorrerem com um logotipo e a ANSOL ter a liberdade de escolher o melhor e ainda de o alterar, se achar necess=E1ri= o, outra coisa =E9 concorrerem com ideias. Ideias =E9 muito gen=E9rico, e de qualquer modo n=E3o representam a creatividade do autor como um logotipo real. Cumprimentos, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From fmaia arroba gmx.net Sat Apr 13 02:48:01 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Sat Apr 13 01:48:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Sobre o meu trabalho In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020413014029.6ea3f27a.fmaia@gmx.net> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:36:20 +0100 André Esteves wrote: > Caros membros da lista, > > Quem têm seguido a lista, pode PERFEITAMENTE verificar que eu não dou um > passo sem o comunicar á lista e auscultar a opinião dos membros. > > E sempre o farei. Não precisas de te explicar. Por favor não comecem nada parecido com uma flame war. -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 05:31:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 04:31:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]bitaites para o ar -- lista In-Reply-To: <1018632748.462.29.camel@jung> References: <1018632748.462.29.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020413032936.GI10000@queen.null.nil> --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:32:28PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: >=20 > * acertem a hora do computador. > * respondam para a lista s=F3 quando tem a ver > * respondam para a lista *sempre* que tem a ver > * se responderem para a lista, respondam s=F3 para a lista (mensagens > duplicadas). E se me permites acrescentar: * Cuidado com a maneira como escrevem as mensagens. Este =E9 um meio muito prop=EDcio a mal entendidos... * N=E3o alimentem flame wars. Al=E9m de ser pouco produtivo, a irrita=E7= =E3o causada faz mal =E0 sa=FAde. * Enfim, todas as boas regras da netiquette. > Obrigado, e desculpem o moralismo. Idem. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t6YgkNvNeN9nJYcRAohNAJ9XhCRkPXcVI6Nekyv/Un7RpZDR0ACfXFLQ 8pxJPjxk0KWrXCxAAgklFZs= =lC24 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y+xroYBkGM9OatJL-- From figueira arroba europe.com Sat Apr 13 05:47:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Sat Apr 13 04:47:01 2002 Subject: [Mesa AG]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Diversos... (uff) In-Reply-To: <20020412205805.600c90c6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018630641.462.13.camel@jung> <20020412205805.600c90c6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1018669259.449.2.camel@jung> Viva, On Fri, 2002-04-12 at 20:58, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > > No entanto, espero a versao final das actas. > > N=E3o est=E3o j=E1 finalizadas? >=20 > O Ruben ou o Jaime, disseram para esperar que se chegue a um > consenso para as mesmas. Uh? O consenso n=E3o foi na AG? Quem vota a favor, quem vota contra...=20 --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 05:51:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 04:51:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?B?T0wtZ2VyYWxdUG9ycXVlIHNlcuEuLi4=?= In-Reply-To: <20020413012729.A4107@nsk.yi.org> References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> <20020413012729.A4107@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020413034952.GJ10000@queen.null.nil> --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Como n=E3o quero alimentar mais esta discuss=E3o, quero s=F3 prestar um=20 esclarecimento. On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 01:27:29AM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wro= te: >=20 > O mundo =E9 a preto e branco, mas quem quiser v=EA-lo a tons de cinzento = tem > apenas que desfocar a vis=E3o. A FSF decide n=E3o fazer isso, e a ANSOL, = como > representante portuguesa da FSF e do software livre decide fazer o mesmo.= =20 A ANSOL n=E3o =E9 representante da FSF. =C9 sim uma organiza=E7=E3o associa= da da FSF Europa. Existem contactos com a FSF Europa para a cria=E7=E3o da sec=E7= =E3o=20 portuguesa desta organiza=E7=E3o, que ser=E1 provavelmente composta por alg= uns elementos da ANSOL. No entanto a ANSOL =E9 totalmente independente da FSF. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t6rgkNvNeN9nJYcRAnUxAJsHG/o6P99WjuQYkVE3GtIFUl52qgCdGiFG n8v1jHyrqj+PuUGEjgIrb0Y= =7352 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8sldprk+5E/pDEv-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 05:56:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 04:56:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Nova =?iso-8859-1?Q?vers?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= do regulamento do concurso In-Reply-To: <20020411225413.Q10060@fe.up.pt> References: <20020411225413.Q10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020413035437.GK10000@queen.null.nil> --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:54:13PM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: >=20 > O xhtml obtido com > parsewiki pode entrar directamente no nosso site web; se houver interesse= , at=E9 > passar a usar o formato wiki como formato no site, em vez do actual xhtml. Gostei do parsewiki. Como se usaria no site, nomeadamente para utilizar em conjunto com as stylesheets existentes? Do wiki, gerava-se xhtml e do xhtml gerava-se html? --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t6v9kNvNeN9nJYcRAngbAJ9WM5vTLB7dA02tJivZaHkyNw655wCgo4zm Le7uN9Y/D2QMVj2yAfd4lDU= =wLBT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FUFe+yI/t+r3nyH4-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 06:01:04 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:01:04 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]ps vs. PDF In-Reply-To: <200204131044.13545.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <200204121046.54684.gamito@startux.org> <20020412040018.GG7781@queen.null.nil> <200204131044.13545.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <20020413035930.GL10000@queen.null.nil> --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 10:45:22AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: >=20 > On Friday 12 April 2002 05:00, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:46:54AM +0100, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > > > Em resumo, acho que se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados na ANS= OL, > > > que eventualmente ainda n=E3o dominem bem o formato de documentos est= ranhos > > > (leia-se formatos !=3D .doc). > > > > O formato do Word est=E1 fora de hip=F3tese, pois =E9 propriet=E1rio, e= seria uma > > inconsist=EAncia da nossa parte estar, por um lado a [0] exercer press= =F5es > > pol=EDticas para a utiliza=E7=E3o de formatos abertos, e por outro lado= a > > utilizar esses mesmos formatos. > > > > [0] http://www.ansol.org/politica/ >=20 > Leste mal. > L=EA outra vez: "leia-se formatos !=3D .doc" >=20 > Entendido ? O que eu entendi era que estavas a afirmar que formatos que n=E3o fossem .d= oc eram estranhos, e como se deve facilitar o ingresso de associados era este formato que se devia utilizar. Pelos vistos percebi mal. --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t60ikNvNeN9nJYcRAmcOAJ4nrFAdf4RWrhInNN38mj3JKHn7LQCggHRZ cVkL3Hum9pre1OdJEsRZ7Jw= =hVEw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fKov5AqTsvseSZ0Z-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 06:06:01 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:06:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020412100619.T10060@fe.up.pt> References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <20020412025646.GC7781@queen.null.nil> <20020412100619.T10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020413040521.GM10000@queen.null.nil> --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 10:06:20AM +0100, Jaime E. Villate wrote: >=20 > Temos dois formatos que podemos usar para documentos prontos a imprimir. = No > caso do primeiro formato, os utilizadores de software livre est=E3o em cl= ara > desvantagem perante os utilizadores de software propriet=E1rio. No segund= o caso > os utilizadores de software livre est=E3o muito mais a bontade que os > utilizadores de software propriet=E1rio. A ANSOL tem como objectivo fomen= tar o > uso do software livre. A qual dos dois formatos dever=E1 dar prefer=EAnci= a a > ANSOL? Nos casos em que temos de escolher apenas um formato, concordo contigo que devemos optar pelo postscript. Mas porque n=E3o usar os dois? Ou at=E9, como sugere o Jos=E9 Esteves, usar tamb=E9m uma vers=E3o em texto simples. Podem= os=20 usar as tuas xhtmltools para gerar estes formatos todos. :) P.S. Est=E1s a pensar em fazer debs das xhtmltools e do parsewiki?=20 --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t66BkNvNeN9nJYcRAiQWAKCv9xBYvrbzQ92w2Mrcef4LkNrO3QCePo8e RvoC5ZH1repozbcuh+CaTes= =kFcg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEfPc/DjvCj+JzNg-- From ruben arroba nocturno.org Sat Apr 13 06:20:02 2002 From: ruben arroba nocturno.org (Ruben Leote Mendes) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:20:02 2002 Subject: [Mesa AG]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Diversos... (uff) In-Reply-To: <1018669259.449.2.camel@jung> References: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018630641.462.13.camel@jung> <20020412205805.600c90c6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018669259.449.2.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020413041839.GN10000@queen.null.nil> --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:40:58AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Fri, 2002-04-12 at 20:58, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > > > No entanto, espero a versao final das actas. > > > N=E3o est=E3o j=E1 finalizadas? > >=20 > > O Ruben ou o Jaime, disseram para esperar que se chegue a um > > consenso para as mesmas. >=20 > Uh? >=20 > O consenso n=E3o foi na AG? Quem vota a favor, quem vota contra...=20 Sim, o que est=E1 decidido est=E1 decidido. Nem poderia ser de outra forma. Eu refiro-me =E0 redac=E7=E3o da acta. Nomeadamente se vamos fazer apenas uma acta ou se vamos fazer duas. Ouvi dizer que tinhas uns contactos previligiados que poderiam responder a esta pergunta. :) --=20 R=FAben Leote Mendes - ruben@nocturno.org --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8t7GekNvNeN9nJYcRAhXtAKCE5/HtLanQGtp5NZsHaiUXwLTiyACfWZCO wJG+56q8dOs8x8a/AJdFs90= =2ft+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bFUYW7mPOLJ+Jd2A-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sat Apr 13 06:20:07 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:20:07 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DPorque_ser=E1=2E?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <20020413034952.GJ10000@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:49:52AM +0100 References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> <20020413012729.A4107@nsk.yi.org> <20020413034952.GJ10000@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020413051611.A16904@nsk.yi.org> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:49:52AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > A ANSOL n=E3o =E9 representante da FSF. =C9 sim uma organiza=E7=E3o ass= ociada da > FSF Europa. Existem contactos com a FSF Europa para a cria=E7=E3o da se= c=E7=E3o=20 > portuguesa desta organiza=E7=E3o, que ser=E1 provavelmente composta por= alguns > elementos da ANSOL. No entanto a ANSOL =E9 totalmente independente da F= SF. >=20 Referia-me apenas a n=EDvel ideol=F3gico. Cumprimentos, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From figueira arroba europe.com Sat Apr 13 06:22:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:22:01 2002 Subject: [Mesa AG]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Diversos... (uff) In-Reply-To: <20020413051312.61e12ee1.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020411171823.7cbc7173.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018630641.462.13.camel@jung> <20020412205805.600c90c6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018669259.449.2.camel@jung> <20020413045113.632f876d.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1018670269.446.12.camel@jung> <20020413051312.61e12ee1.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1018671348.994.1.camel@jung> Viva, On Sat, 2002-04-13 at 05:13, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Assim sendo! De nenhum! > Tomarei como referencia os textos que se encontram no CVS relativamente a= s duas actas. >=20 > Consegueste informar se pode ser possivel realizar duas actas ? Consigo. Vou ver se amanh=E3 digo qualquer coisa. > Ps: Isto nao sao horas de se mandar emails ;)=20 At=E3o n=E3o s=E3o?! :-) > > Exactamente. O texto exacto foi discutido, aprovado e anotado (pelo > > R=FAben). N=E3o vejo de que consenso =E9 que estamos =E0 espera. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Sat Apr 13 06:24:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Sat Apr 13 05:24:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]menu do site Message-ID: <1018671470.992.4.camel@jung> Viva, Andr=E9: Posso sugerir passar o link do menu de "Lista de Software Livre Portugu=EAs" para "Software Livre Portugu=EAs"? Fica mais em conta para o tamanho e reflecte a mesm=EDssima ideia. Hum? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From rms arroba 1407.org Sat Apr 13 14:40:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 13 13:40:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Vers=E3o=20corrigida=20do?= cartaz... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018701233.6568.1.camel@roque> --=-CSQ8xeYIjj5GGOrZCuQx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2002-04-12 at 22:32, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Desculpem-me l=E1, mas eu adoro aquela font... :) E realmente gira. > A vossa opini=E3o/sugest=E3o, So que como ja o Vitor disse... tem alguns problemas interpretativos ("o que, aqueles tipos nem escrever sabem!") que podemos evitar. hugs --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-CSQ8xeYIjj5GGOrZCuQx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uCWxo+C50no0+t4RAlccAKCkq/ComBQrST3uWBXbfsHLqD1tHwCgmOSA VVFKhIbEugjlswP3KxxRmvs= =Uvr+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CSQ8xeYIjj5GGOrZCuQx-- From rms arroba 1407.org Sat Apr 13 14:56:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 13 13:56:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Porque =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ser=E1=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> References: <200204140123.13294.gamito@startux.org> Message-ID: <1018702191.6567.18.camel@roque> --=-6LusFDJqzDudtBz8i3Og Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-14 at 01:23, M=E1rio Gamito wrote: > ... que eu n=E3o reconhe=E7o no cartaz do concurso o logotipo da minha=20 > distribui=E7=E3o que tamb=E9m =E9 software livre ? > Bolas, como =E9 que assim vou poder concorrer ? Distro-war? Que infantilidade... > Deixem-se estar assim a ver o mundo a preto e branco, com bons e maus, in= d=EDos=20 > e cob=F3is que v=E3o bem. Eu c=E1, (se calhar =E9 da PDI) vejo mais o mun= do em=20 > tonalidades de cinzento. Fixe, quando conseguires ver o arco-iris que nos vemos avisa. > J=E1 perdi a f=E9 em =EDdolatrias (todas t=EAm p=E9s de barro e esqueleto= s no arm=E1rio) e=20 > em verdades absolutas e imut=E1veis. Fixe, ainda bem que nao somos uma religiao. > Por este andar ainda hei-de ver os padres poderem casar antes de a ANSOL = ter=20 > um esp=EDrito um bocadinho mais aberto para outras coisas que n=E3o aquel= es=20 > bonequinhos do png. Ouve, o que e que queres? Uma "ASsociacao Nacional OpenSource"? Entao cria-a, por favor, em vez de estares sempre a insitir em que uma "Associacao Nacional para o Software Livre" se desvirtualize. > Bem, esta deve ser mesmo uma das =FAltimas mensagens para a lista. > Pelo menos at=E9 ver mais bom senso e largura de horizontes e como nunca=20 > comunguei da m=E1xima "se n=E3o os podes vencer, junta-te a eles", vou a = banhos. Ninguem te obriga a ficar ou a sair. Faz o que bem entendes. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Para a ANSOL as 4 liberdades do Software Livre sao essenciais (nao digo que nao ha outras, apenas que nos concentramos na defesa destas). Nao e falta de largura de horizontes rejeitar que se abdique de seja qual for delas. Chama-se integridade de uma posicao. > Ali=E1s, tenho que passar 8 horas por dia ocupado a dar o meu contributo = caseiro=20 > para os mel=F5es em cima da mesa. Tenho a certeza que quando muitos daqui= =20 > chegarem a esse dia, come=E7am a ver os tais tons de cinzento a aparecer. Em media, numa semana de trabalho, faco cerca de 9 horas (nao contando com o almoco) de trabalho por dia. Continuno sem ver cinzento, mas um arco-iris. > Tenho a sorte de p=F4r mel=F5es na mesa, trabalhando com Linux e outro so= ftware=20 > livre. Mas sem dogmas. Eu tambem trabalho com GNU/Linux no trabalho, alias, recuso-me a tocar em maquinas Windows, e tenho algumas hp-ux para abater. Quando nao consigo ler um documento, normalmente peco para mo enviarem noutro formato ou mesmo impresso. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-6LusFDJqzDudtBz8i3Og Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uClvo+C50no0+t4RAn27AKDWOpkG1CsdWsSkA6DZS9oRBsiQPwCgn9jf SXPjAQ4EedLZkie25sOZYO4= =HhEw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-6LusFDJqzDudtBz8i3Og-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sun Apr 14 00:13:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sat Apr 13 23:13:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]SOFTWARE LIVRE: Suas Licenças e Sua Aplicabilidade Legal Message-ID: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva, Após lêr o texto seguinte... ----------------------------------------- "As alterações à lei do copyright podem, como recentemente foi o caso na Alemanha, enfraquecer ou até mesmo tornar ilegal o Software Livre. Neste caso específico, a iFross [15] e a FSF Europa [16] foram capazes de sugerir uma alteração a uma emenda proposta para a lei de copyright, introduzindo uma exceção para o Software Livre. Esta alteração foi incorporada à lei aprovada em 25/01/2002, que vai passar a vigorar em breve. Uma das tarefas da FSF Europa é se manter atenta a tais desenvolvimentos e influenciá-los de forma positiva ao Software Livre. Sem a cooperação de organizações como a ifrOSS, que é claramente legal em sua natureza, fazer isto seria muito mais difícil. É por isso que a FSF Europa trabalha para estabelecer cooperações através da Europa, e para fortalecê-las." [15] Página inicial da ifrOSS http://www.ifross.de [16] Página inicial da FSF Europa http://fsfeurope.org in http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-38.pt.html ----------------------------------------- ... surgiram-me algumas questões que gostava de expôr para futura discussão. Será que não podiamos falar com esta associação e com a FSF-Europe no sentido de obtermos, pelo menos, uma cópia traduzida das iniciativas legais que eles têm andado a fazer com o objectivo de tentarmos (com a ajuda de algum advogado) transpô-las para a realidade legal portuguesa? Uma das questões problemáticas que eu vejo nas actuais licenças ligadas ao Software Livre é o facto de as "traduções" serem mais ou menos livres e depois tentar-se que a válida seja sempre a que foi escrita pela FSF, e que está mais concernente com a legislação americana e não com a nossa (ou com a chinesa, ou espanhola, ou de qualquer outro país). Isto pode levantar problemas de consistência e aplicabilidade legal em certos países por ir, de facto, em "contra-mão" com determinadas disposições do país onde se pretende que tenham efeito legal, tornando porventura impraticável tentar forçar a sua aplicabilidade em juízo caso seja necessário. Que pensam sobre a promoção de uma possível transposição (e não mera "tradução") a ser feita para cada país no sentido de harmonizar o sentido e o objectivo das licenças Software Livre com as legislações específicas. Isto permitiria dizer-se, por exemplo, que um determinado programa "usa a licença GPL na sua última versão aplicável ao país do utilizador ou em sua falta a licença GPL de aplicação geral". Que acham desta ideia? Seria de falar nela com a própria FSF? Seria do interesse da FSF patrocinar o pagamento de advogados que fizessem a dita transposição? Não será o problema das licenças o mais essencial para a sobrevivência do próprio conceito de Software Livre? É preciso não esquecer que mesmo a legislação europeia emitida pelo Parlamento Europeu tem de ser sempre harmonizada (termo legal) com a legislação dos países membros, seja por ligeiras alterações ao texto (mas não aos fins em vista e ao espirito da lei) seja por introdução de alterações na lei dos países membros. 1, Lopo From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 14 00:31:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sat Apr 13 23:31:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]SOFTWARE LIVRE: Suas Licenças e Sua Aplicabilidade Legal In-Reply-To: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020413232541.4c7d011a.vd@paradigma.co.pt> A ideia no geral, ja foi debatida na AG "O Paulo Carvalho sublinhou que se deveria de fazer uma tradu=E7=E3o do G= PL para Portugu=EAs de forma jur=EDdica correcta. Foi debatido que tal fa= cto =E9 complicado, mas que =E9 sem d=FAvida um ponto importante e que de= ver=E1 ser tomado em conta. Debateu-se tamb=E9m alguns apoios de Advogado= s e de Advogados com especialidade em direitos de autor. " Ficou-se pelo possivel apoio de advogados, e provaveis financiamentos aos= mesmos para a traducao... On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:00:54 +0100 "Lopo de Almeida" wrote: > Viva, >=20 > Ap=F3s l=EAr o texto seguinte... >=20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------- >=20 > "As altera=E7=F5es =E0 lei do copyright podem, como recentemente foi o = caso na > Alemanha, enfraquecer ou at=E9 mesmo tornar ilegal o Software Livre. Ne= ste > caso espec=EDfico, a iFross [15] e a FSF Europa [16] foram capazes de s= ugerir > uma altera=E7=E3o a uma emenda proposta para a lei de copyright, introd= uzindo > uma exce=E7=E3o para o Software Livre. Esta altera=E7=E3o foi incorpora= da =E0 lei > aprovada em 25/01/2002, que vai passar a vigorar em breve. >=20 > Uma das tarefas da FSF Europa =E9 se manter atenta a tais desenvolvimen= tos e > influenci=E1-los de forma positiva ao Software Livre. Sem a coopera=E7=E3= o de > organiza=E7=F5es como a ifrOSS, que =E9 claramente legal em sua naturez= a, fazer > isto seria muito mais dif=EDcil. =C9 por isso que a FSF Europa trabalha= para > estabelecer coopera=E7=F5es atrav=E9s da Europa, e para fortalec=EA-las= ." >=20 > [15] P=E1gina inicial da ifrOSS http://www.ifross.de > [16] P=E1gina inicial da FSF Europa http://fsfeurope.org >=20 > in http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-38.pt.html >=20 > ----------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > ... surgiram-me algumas quest=F5es que gostava de exp=F4r para futura d= iscuss=E3o. >=20 > Ser=E1 que n=E3o podiamos falar com esta associa=E7=E3o e com a FSF-Eur= ope no > sentido de obtermos, pelo menos, uma c=F3pia traduzida das iniciativas = legais > que eles t=EAm andado a fazer com o objectivo de tentarmos (com a ajuda= de > algum advogado) transp=F4-las para a realidade legal portuguesa? >=20 > Uma das quest=F5es problem=E1ticas que eu vejo nas actuais licen=E7as l= igadas ao > Software Livre =E9 o facto de as "tradu=E7=F5es" serem mais ou menos li= vres e > depois tentar-se que a v=E1lida seja sempre a que foi escrita pela FSF,= e que > est=E1 mais concernente com a legisla=E7=E3o americana e n=E3o com a no= ssa (ou com a > chinesa, ou espanhola, ou de qualquer outro pa=EDs). >=20 > Isto pode levantar problemas de consist=EAncia e aplicabilidade legal e= m > certos pa=EDses por ir, de facto, em "contra-m=E3o" com determinadas di= sposi=E7=F5es > do pa=EDs onde se pretende que tenham efeito legal, tornando porventura > impratic=E1vel tentar for=E7ar a sua aplicabilidade em ju=EDzo caso sej= a > necess=E1rio. >=20 > Que pensam sobre a promo=E7=E3o de uma poss=EDvel transposi=E7=E3o (e n= =E3o mera > "tradu=E7=E3o") a ser feita para cada pa=EDs no sentido de harmonizar o= sentido e > o objectivo das licen=E7as Software Livre com as legisla=E7=F5es espec=ED= ficas. >=20 > Isto permitiria dizer-se, por exemplo, que um determinado programa "usa= a > licen=E7a GPL na sua =FAltima vers=E3o aplic=E1vel ao pa=EDs do utiliza= dor ou em sua > falta a licen=E7a GPL de aplica=E7=E3o geral". >=20 > Que acham desta ideia? Seria de falar nela com a pr=F3pria FSF? Seria d= o > interesse da FSF patrocinar o pagamento de advogados que fizessem a dit= a > transposi=E7=E3o? N=E3o ser=E1 o problema das licen=E7as o mais essenci= al para a > sobreviv=EAncia do pr=F3prio conceito de Software Livre? >=20 > =C9 preciso n=E3o esquecer que mesmo a legisla=E7=E3o europeia emitida = pelo > Parlamento Europeu tem de ser sempre harmonizada (termo legal) com a > legisla=E7=E3o dos pa=EDses membros, seja por ligeiras altera=E7=F5es a= o texto (mas > n=E3o aos fins em vista e ao espirito da lei) seja por introdu=E7=E3o d= e > altera=E7=F5es na lei dos pa=EDses membros. >=20 > 1, >=20 >=20 > Lopo >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sun Apr 14 01:10:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sun Apr 14 00:10:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Versão corrigida do cartaz... References: Message-ID: <007001c1e33f$a8525f60$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Pois! O logo do Debian é um bocado mau porque muita gente que conhece o Linux em Portugal está mais habituada aos logos da RedHat, SuSE ou Mandrake. Porque não usas em vez desse o do GNOME. Até em termos de imagem da ANSOL faz mais sentido: FSF -> GNU -> LINUX -> GNOME Aliás, acho que deves começar ao contrário: GNOME LINUX GNU ANSOL 1. Gnome são as "janelinhas"; 2. Linux é o Sistema Operativo; 3. GNU é o que está por detrás (abaixo e acima); 4. E o último É a "FSF" em Portugal (ou a sua "representante"). Assim até no cartaz podes estar a transmitir uma mensagem :-) "Welcome to the GNU Project web server, www.gnu.org. The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete Unix-like operating system which is free software: the GNU system. (GNU is a recursive acronym for ``GNU's Not Unix''; it is pronounced "guh-NEW".) Variants of the GNU operating system, which use the kernel Linux, are now widely used; though these systems are often referred to as ``Linux'', they are more accurately called GNU/Linux systems." Só para relembrar que o GNU TAMBÉM NÃO É SÓ O LINUX. E, acima de tudo, não se mencionam marcas de distros que não são o mais importante (distros há muitas) e só serve para indispôr alguns (até das outras distros), se não vê as coisas assim: - A Caixa Mágica TAMBÉM é GPL. Até o instalador. Pelo que sei tudo o que eles fizeram é GPL. O facto de virem a introduzir o StarOffice (que deve ser um CD separado se fôr como nas distros que conheço) não o torna menos GPL na sua versão "downloadable", não achas? E ainda por cima é um projecto português que a curto prazo será mais conhecido que o Debian. A longo prazo não se sabe, mas a curto será seguramente ;-) Não devemos "cuspir" no que é nosso, acho eu, e espero que concordes. E estou à vontade para dizer isto como o próprio Paulo Trezentos e algumas mensagens minhas nesta mesma lista o podem confirmar ;-) 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "André Esteves" To: Sent: Sexta-feira, 12 de Abril de 2002 22:32 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Versão corrigida do cartaz... Desculpem-me lá, mas eu adoro aquela font... :) A vossa opinião/sugestão, André Esteves From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 14 10:58:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 14 09:58:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]SOFTWARE LIVRE: Suas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e Sua Aplicabilidade Legal In-Reply-To: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1018774141.482.8.camel@central> --=-34aVXzFFZO0vrmjLFmZp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On S=E1b, 2002-04-13 at 23:00, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ser=E1 que n=E3o podiamos falar com esta associa=E7=E3o e com a FSF-Europ= e no > sentido de obtermos, pelo menos, uma c=F3pia traduzida das iniciativas le= gais > que eles t=EAm andado a fazer com o objectivo de tentarmos (com a ajuda d= e > algum advogado) transp=F4-las para a realidade legal portuguesa? >=20 N=E3o interessam. O problema foi que para lidar com sistemas como o napster na Alemanha passou a ser obrigat=F3rio dar uma contrapartida ao detentor do direito de autor sempre que seja copiada a sua obra. Esta limita=E7=E3o afectava a liberdade de distribuir (se tens de pagar por cada c=F3pia, n=E3o tens a liberdade de redistribuir o software) e o que eles conseguiram foi abrir uma excep=E7=E3o na lei para o Software Livre.=20 > Uma das quest=F5es problem=E1ticas que eu vejo nas actuais licen=E7as lig= adas ao > Software Livre =E9 o facto de as "tradu=E7=F5es" serem mais ou menos livr= es e > depois tentar-se que a v=E1lida seja sempre a que foi escrita pela FSF, e= que > est=E1 mais concernente com a legisla=E7=E3o americana e n=E3o com a noss= a (ou com a > chinesa, ou espanhola, ou de qualquer outro pa=EDs). >=20 Primeiro as legisla=E7=F5es neste dom=EDnio n=E3o diferem muito de pa=EDs p= ara pa=EDs. Toda a legisla=E7=E3o de direitos de autor vem, de uma forma ou de outra, de tratados internacionais (Tratado de Berna, Tratado de Genebra (1996), etc.). Quanto =E0 necessidade de traduzir a licen=E7a, concordo. No entanto ainda n=E3o consegui arranjar um professor de direito especializado nesta =E1rea que esteja disposto a ajudar-nos. Quanto a advogados, a =FAnica pessoa que me apontaram como especialista nesta =E1rea tem um risco associado, =E9 o advogado da Microsoft. A FSF/FSF Europa est=E3o dispostos a apoiar qualquer iniciativa que fa=E7amos, tal como o est=E3o a fazer com a tentativa de tradu=E7=E3o da GPL para franc=EAs. Se algu=E9m tiver algum contacto que possa ser =FAtil, avise. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-34aVXzFFZO0vrmjLFmZp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uUJeGFkMfesLN9wRAkCvAJ9sSiGf/6uky8cZZficwwcIGXKTuACdG/nV 51JzvrrfVON5auxvALeF/Bo= =bF3r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-34aVXzFFZO0vrmjLFmZp-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 14 11:06:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 14 10:06:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Regulamento do Logotipo In-Reply-To: <20020411020342.A3205@nsk.yi.org> References: <20020410131131.0dd5da8f.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <010a01c1e0bf$8b3b9e00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020410223623.A7464@fe.up.pt> <01b701c1e0e5$3b651f20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020411005659.E9944@fe.up.pt> <01e401c1e0ec$b2411d40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020411020342.A3205@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <1018774893.501.16.camel@central> --=-WFAPuyQSoKp8sQVSMjX9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qui, 2002-04-11 at 02:03, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > Eu tenho a ideia de que o formato True Type tamb=E9m =E9 da Adobe e =E9= um formato > > p=FAblico. Estou errado? > Est=E1s, o formato TrueType =E9 da Microsoft. Pode ter sido baseado nos f= ormatos > da Adobe (Type1, etc). Mas trata-se apenas dum formato diferente que > suporta o que =E9 de esperar para uma fonte vectorial decente, incluido > ajudas para resolu=E7=F5es pequenas (n=E3o sei se o da Adobe tem isso). >=20 > No entanto, o formato =E9 p=FAblico (tanto quanto =E9 o .wav, .bmp, etc). >=20 Aten=E7=E3o que n=E3o =E9 bem assim, a Microsoft tem limitado a utiliza=E7= =E3o de TrueType noutros sistemas devido =E0 patente que det=EAm sobre o algoritmo que permite fazer rendering em baixas resolu=E7=F5es (A Apple chegou a ser processada por causa desta patente). N=E3o sei qual =E9 a situa=E7=E3o actu= al. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-WFAPuyQSoKp8sQVSMjX9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uUVtGFkMfesLN9wRAn6oAJ9HhzB+0yOAgFoID+o4BuM8kY8ePQCeLV6p dg6903cdbiLHgILV7qRdzz4= =IF3H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-WFAPuyQSoKp8sQVSMjX9-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 14 11:32:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 14 10:32:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Merchandising Message-ID: <1018776421.501.31.camel@central> --=-W1eAyD2wDCSD8Mr7Cfem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em rela=E7=E3o a haver merchandising vendido pela ANSOL estou perfeitamente de acordo. E enquanto n=E3o tivermos merchandising pr=F3prio podemos revender o que existe da FSF/FSF Europa: as v=E1rias T-Shirts, os bon=E9s, os peluches de gnus ou mesmo a Free Software Magazine. Aten=E7=E3o que isto custa dinheiro e trabalho que em Portugal n=E3o estamo= s habituados a contabilizar. Por exemplo, a FSF tem algu=E9m contratado s=F3 para tratar das encomendas. Por isso =E9 que produtos com uma margem baixa (como distribui=E7=F5es a 1 euro + portes) n=E3o valem a pena. A minha proposta seria: - Aparece um volunt=E1rio com disponibilidade de ir todos os dias aos correios e come=E7amos uma fase experimental em que essa pessoa trata das encomendas do estrangeiro e envio para os clientes finais. - Ap=F3s 2 meses decide-se se vale a pena continuar, ou seja, se os lucros que adv=E9m dessa actividade beneficiam a ANSOL, incluindo alguma retribui=E7=E3o para o volunt=E1rio. As minhas expectativas =E9 que este volunt=E1rio gaste qualquer coisa como = 1 hora di=E1ria com este assunto (se n=E3o estivermos a falar em gravar CDs). Se houver algu=E9m interessado, acuse-se :). Em rela=E7=E3o =E0s distribui=E7=F5es, concordo com o M=E1rio Gamito que d= =E3o muito trabalho e muito pouco retorno. =C9 certo que paguei 5 euros por um CD de Debian recentemente (e ainda tive de o ir buscar), mas duvido que seja poss=EDvel fazer disso um neg=F3cio lucrativo agora. De qualquer modo tenho de me lembrar de mandar um mail para a malta da FSF Europa a pedir-lhes os panfletos que eles oferecem, mas penso que esse n=E3o s=E3o vend=E1veis :). --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-W1eAyD2wDCSD8Mr7Cfem Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uUtYGFkMfesLN9wRAs38AJsEPiu4bWV6YaELsGt2/Fapch8tcACeOZ8p RJsPRC8/w2hh2AuoSoDjtOA= =wcA7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W1eAyD2wDCSD8Mr7Cfem-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Sun Apr 14 11:44:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Sun Apr 14 10:44:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Merchandising In-Reply-To: <1018776421.501.31.camel@central>; from joao@silvaneves.org on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 10:26:49AM +0100 References: <1018776421.501.31.camel@central> Message-ID: <20020414103941.A19599@nsk.yi.org> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 10:26:49AM +0100, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > Em rela=E7=E3o a haver merchandising vendido pela ANSOL estou perfeitam= ente > de acordo. E enquanto n=E3o tivermos merchandising pr=F3prio podemos > revender o que existe da FSF/FSF Europa: as v=E1rias T-Shirts, os bon=E9= s, > os peluches de gnus ou mesmo a Free Software Magazine. Eu quero um pinguim... =C9 mais giro que um gnu! :) =C9 verdade, e raparigas para a distribui=E7=E3o? > As minhas expectativas =E9 que este volunt=E1rio gaste qualquer coisa c= omo 1 > hora di=E1ria com este assunto (se n=E3o estivermos a falar em gravar C= Ds). > Se houver algu=E9m interessado, acuse-se :). Por falar em gravar cds, ningu=E9m tem um bra=E7o rob=F3tico program=E1ve= l? Que pudesse ser usado para retirar o cd virgem de uma pilha de cds e coloc=E1= -lo noutra pilha assim que o cd acabasse de gravar? Cumprimentos, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 14 15:37:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun Apr 14 14:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]GeekPAC Message-ID: <20020414143132.3b97bc46.vd@paradigma.co.pt> http://www.thelinuxshow.com/otc.htm Proposal for the creation of TWO Entities The AMERICAN OPEN TECHNOLOGY CONSORTIUM AND GEEKPAC DRAFT OF PROPOSAL/POSITION STATEMENT (Revised 4/9/2002) The Call for GEEK Action, GEEK Unity: The following document is to provide the people of the greater IT Development Community and the Internet Community at large with a framework to come together and unite in the cause of saving our basic freedoms as they relate to the freedom to innovate and the freedom of the Internet as an entity. We are calling out to people who like us, who make up the diverse technology communities. We call to those who are close to the Internet, to Internet Service Providers, to Web Casters, to content providers; and more important those of you who feel a passion for what the Internet really means as a communications entity to the billions of human spirits that use it daily(please refer to www.cluetrain.com). We call to members of technology specific communities; to all the user groups (of all types) of the nation, to the loyal members of the APPLE/MAC Community, to the GNU and FREE SOFTWARE community, to the Linux and Open Source communities, to all you hard core UNIX users and USENIX me! mbers, AND YES we even call to those who love and enjoy their Microsoft products. This call is for us to unite and take a stand to preserve those basic freedoms. To do this effectively we need to educate the public and those in national public office; and at the same time create a channel for direct Political Action. This is a daunting task, and the only way we can see clear is in proposing the creation of TWO separate organizations with similar goals and a common set of beliefs. [...] ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 14 17:53:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 14 16:53:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]SOFTWARE LIVRE: Suas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e Sua Aplicabilidade Legal In-Reply-To: <1018774141.482.8.camel@central> References: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1018774141.482.8.camel@central> Message-ID: <1018799229.1442.11.camel@roque> --=-Td0xnhUBrCLGZB/RB31T Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2002-04-14 at 09:48, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > que esteja disposto a ajudar-nos. Quanto a advogados, a =FAnica pessoa qu= e > me apontaram como especialista nesta =E1rea tem um risco associado, =E9 o > advogado da Microsoft. A FSF/FSF Europa est=E3o dispostos a apoiar Qual unica pessoa, o Pedro Dias que apontei aqui recentemente? Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-Td0xnhUBrCLGZB/RB31T Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uaR9o+C50no0+t4RAiiqAKCwKfwcnRZQA14WVFI5Bh3UO7HmTQCfQ9zd 6Sr4oejqWdQMILUKtRHAbLs= =M70z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Td0xnhUBrCLGZB/RB31T-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 14 19:21:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 14 18:21:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]SOFTWARE LIVRE: Suas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e Sua Aplicabilidade Legal In-Reply-To: <1018799229.1442.11.camel@roque> References: <001901c1e337$bb25af00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1018774141.482.8.camel@central> <1018799229.1442.11.camel@roque> Message-ID: <1018804543.1697.48.camel@central> --=-Ewq92OIg56/bvEi21BfM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dom, 2002-04-14 at 16:47, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Sun, 2002-04-14 at 09:48, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > > que esteja disposto a ajudar-nos. Quanto a advogados, a =FAnica pessoa = que > > me apontaram como especialista nesta =E1rea tem um risco associado, =E9= o > > advogado da Microsoft. A FSF/FSF Europa est=E3o dispostos a apoiar >=20 > Qual unica pessoa, o Pedro Dias que apontei aqui recentemente? >=20 Estava a referir-me a especialistas em licen=E7as de direitos de autor. N=E3o sei se o Pedro Dias encaixa nesta classifica=E7=E3o. De qualquer form= a como =E9 que est=E1 esse contacto ? --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-Ewq92OIg56/bvEi21BfM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8ubkpGFkMfesLN9wRAs+PAJ0R0Ahh4SmvUJjp0o//2HzZ10L/awCdEkSr hP66mtZohoO729ESo3A9UFQ= =gPOF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Ewq92OIg56/bvEi21BfM-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 14 19:39:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 14 18:39:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?Not=EDcia=20sobre=20software=20livre=20no=20por tal=20da?= AEP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018805656.501.52.camel@central> --=-TXiLsKqFp7icvV9zmgo8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qua, 2002-04-10 at 12:53, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > O Jo=E3o Neves falou com a AEP >=20 > http://www.aeportugal.pt/Areas/Noticias/BaseNoticia.asp?Codigo=3D1572 >=20 Rumores infundados... este artigo =E9 uma pequena parte de uma p=E1gina sobre Software Livre que saiu no seman=E1rio Vida Econ=F3mica. Quem a quise= r ler toda, est=E1 um ficheiro algures no site (http://www.ansol.org/docs/vida-economica-2002-01-25.pt.html). --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-TXiLsKqFp7icvV9zmgo8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8ub2LGFkMfesLN9wRAgQyAKCGz9cXgC03nuV4jdtbfO3ifYXD4QCffRAA 0TzCLdQ6JPYtKLBuG7D+Mtc= =SBjF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TXiLsKqFp7icvV9zmgo8-- From hnogueira arroba april.org Mon Apr 15 09:47:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 15 08:47:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: O =?iso-8859-15?q?uso do chap=E9u=20GNU?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20trazconsequ=EAncias sociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <1018627929.461.9.camel@jung> References: <3C7EF02B00800146@mail.libertysurf.net> <1018627929.461.9.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3C88B169007DCB78@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Ou podemos fazer refer=EAncia a todas. Assim n=E3o causamos favorecimen= tos Sabes quantas distrubui=E7oes Linux e empresas de servi=E7o fazendo busin= ess com Linux e "Open-Source" existem ? ;-) Um abra=E7o ;) Hugo. From hnogueira arroba april.org Mon Apr 15 09:53:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 15 08:53:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Peru: Microsoft vs Solftware Livre --> 0-1 In-Reply-To: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> References: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> Message-ID: <3CB1CD500015108C@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > De notar, em particular, o subtil duplo sentido da primeira frase da > resposta: > > < manifiesta la posici=F3n oficial de Microsoft respecto al Proyecto de L= ey > N=BA 1609, Software Libre en la Administraci=F3n P=FAblica, _que_sin_du= da_se_ > halla_inspirada_en_el_deseo_de_que__el__Per=FA__logre__situarse_ > ___adecuadamente___en__el__contexto__tecnol=F3gico__global.>> OUCH! Alguem pode-me traduzir a resposta para que eu entenda bem o duplo sentid= o ? E que compreendo mais ou menos espanhol, mas nao estando tao habituado qu= e em Portugal em ouvir ou ler espanhol, nao consigo ir al=E9m de um sentido gl= obal ;) Hugo. From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 15 13:33:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Mon Apr 15 12:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DNova_vers=E3o_do_regulamento_do_concurso?= In-Reply-To: <20020413035437.GK10000@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:54:37AM +0100 References: <20020411225413.Q10060@fe.up.pt> <20020413035437.GK10000@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020415123240.W10060@fe.up.pt> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 04:54:37AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Gostei do parsewiki. Como se usaria no site, nomeadamente para utilizar > em conjunto com as stylesheets existentes? Do wiki, gerava-se xhtml e d= o > xhtml gerava-se html? N=E3o; dos ficheiros textos gerava-se directamente html, sem usar nem xht= ml nem xslt (numa fase inicial os dois m=E9todos podem conviver pacificamente). = A nova stylesheet seria uma simples p=E1gina html mais f=E1cil de manter. Num es= t=E1gio ainda mais evoluido, em vez de usarmos CVS para as p=E1ginas web, usa-se = um wiki que faz algo semelhante, mas =E9 mais f=E1cil de usar pois funciona via w= eb. Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 15 13:36:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 15 12:36:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Versão corrigida docartaz... References: <007001c1e33f$a8525f60$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1018774557.501.11.camel@central> Message-ID: <001701c1e470$fbb1fb20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva, Então é uma ideia sem pés nem cabeça. Incluir na base de uma distro um software que não se sabe qual vai ser o futuro, como o StarOffice, não é muito inteligente. Eu realmente pensava que eles teriam feito como a Conectiva que inclui um CD da SUN com o StarOffice para MSWindows, Solaris e Linux. Assim eles (Caixa Mágica) só podem distribuir a sua distro em total dependência da futura boa vontade da SUN. Eu nunca compraria a Caixa Mágica se tivesse a hipótese, muito provável, de me virem a pedir dinheiro de licenças. Aliás, na palestra do dia 12, que foi organizada pela CM, ficou claro que a SUN vai começar a cobrar por cada cópia. Não fiquei muito esclarecido quanto ao facto de poder copiar e/ou efectuar download de graça do StarOffice. Com esta última condição (download a pagar) a CM fica grandemente comprometida no seu objectivo, se não completamente impossibilitada de o fazer. Por isso é que outros, como a Conectiva, separaram o software que controlam num ISO e o que não controlam em outro ISO. Mas que acham em relação à substituição dos logos, não incluindo mesmo nenhum de uma distro, e pôr a sequência que propus? 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "João Miguel Neves" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Sent: Domingo, 14 de Abril de 2002 9:55 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Versão corrigida docartaz... On Dom, 2002-04-14 at 00:04, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > - A Caixa Mágica TAMBÉM é GPL. Até o instalador. Pelo que sei tudo o que > eles fizeram é GPL. > > O facto de virem a introduzir o StarOffice (que deve ser um CD separado se > fôr como nas distros que conheço) não o torna menos GPL na sua versão > "downloadable", não achas? E ainda por cima é um projecto português que a > curto prazo será mais conhecido que o Debian. A longo prazo não se sabe, mas > a curto será seguramente ;-) > Só um esclarecimento: o StarOffice faz parte da distribuição Caixa Mágica (que é apenas um CD e será distribuída apenas como ISO). -- João Miguel Neves From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 15 13:37:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Mon Apr 15 12:37:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DRe:_=5BANSOL-geral=5DBD_dos_s=F3cios?= In-Reply-To: <20020413040521.GM10000@queen.null.nil>; from ruben@nocturno.org on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:05:21AM +0100 References: <200204101109.g3AB9BM20118@students.fct.unl.pt> <20020410192820.GC324@queen.null.nil> <20020410214802.X7464@fe.up.pt> <20020411052528.GB1448@queen.null.nil> <20020411091414.E10060@fe.up.pt> <20020412025646.GC7781@queen.null.nil> <20020412100619.T10060@fe.up.pt> <20020413040521.GM10000@queen.null.nil> Message-ID: <20020415123613.X10060@fe.up.pt> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:05:21AM +0100, Ruben Leote Mendes wrote: > Nos casos em que temos de escolher apenas um formato, concordo contigo = que > devemos optar pelo postscript. Mas porque n=E3o usar os dois? Ou at=E9,= como > sugere o Jos=E9 Esteves, usar tamb=E9m uma vers=E3o em texto simples. P= odemos=20 > usar as tuas xhtmltools para gerar estes formatos todos. :) Concordo > P.S. Est=E1s a pensar em fazer debs das xhtmltools e do parsewiki?=20 Sim. O parsewiki ainda n=E3o =E9 um projecto em Savannah, porque vai ser = uma parte num projecto mais ambicioso (um Wiki completo). Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Mon Apr 15 13:40:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Mon Apr 15 12:40:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]menu do site In-Reply-To: <1018671470.992.4.camel@jung>; from figueira@europe.com on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:17:49AM +0100 References: <1018671470.992.4.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020415123925.Y10060@fe.up.pt> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 05:17:49AM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > Andr=E9: Posso sugerir passar o link do menu de "Lista de Software Livr= e > Portugu=EAs" para "Software Livre Portugu=EAs"? >=20 > Fica mais em conta para o tamanho e reflecte a mesm=EDssima ideia. J=E1 algu=E9m tinha sugerido "Software Livre PT" e eu tamb=E9m gosto muit= o mais, porque como j=E1 tenho referido v=E1rias vezes, n=E3o gosto que seja dada nacionalidade aos projectos de software livre. Jaime From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 15 15:41:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 15 14:41:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Peru: Microsoft vs Solftware Livre --> 0-1 In-Reply-To: <3CB1CD500015108C@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) References: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> <3CB1CD500015108C@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: <1018877733.1394.42.camel@roque> --=-nNndmIfhJ1hm0wDHCs9Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-15 at 08:44, Hugo Nogueira wrote: > > < > manifiesta la posici=F3n oficial de Microsoft respecto al Proyecto de L= ey > > N=BA 1609, Software Libre en la Administraci=F3n P=FAblica, _que_sin_du= da_se_ > > halla_inspirada_en_el_deseo_de_que__el__Per=FA__logre__situarse_ > > ___adecuadamente___en__el__contexto__tecnol=F3gico__global.>> OUCH! > Alguem pode-me traduzir a resposta para que eu entenda bem o duplo sentid= o ? > E que compreendo mais ou menos espanhol, mas nao estando tao habituado qu= e em > Portugal em ouvir ou ler espanhol, nao consigo ir al=E9m de um sentido gl= obal ;) <> Como o Peru sempre esteve num contexto adequadamente elevado ... :) hugs --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-nNndmIfhJ1hm0wDHCs9Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8utclo+C50no0+t4RAlNcAJ0fSkJvfqVqn+pD690jbOb4TcB2lQCfQ1VO ofFvUIff6PZCWqNk2gIRB5w= =wU6k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nNndmIfhJ1hm0wDHCs9Z-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 15 19:43:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 15 18:43:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where's the source? Message-ID: <005401c1e4a4$3341bc00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> FSF asks Lindows, "Where's the source?" http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/11/148251 - Tina Gasperson - Bradley Kuhn, vice president of the Free Software Foundation, says the organization is contacting LindowsOS representatives because the company has not included source code with its "sneak preview" releases. Lindows CEO Michael Robertson says his company will comply with the GPL when the product is released to the public. ----------------- Este e o recente caso relacionado com o MySQL são alguns dos problemas que me preocupam com a efectiva força que um qualquer pequeno programador GPL tem para conseguir obrigar grandes empresas (ou mesmo médias), especialmente as sediadas em outros países, a cumprir com os seus desejos de partilha do código. Um bom exemplo seria: um qualquer programador chinês, e na China, cria um programa comercialmente apetecível sob a licença GPL (ou outra qualquer com o mesmo espirito) e uma corporação "rouba" o código e usa-o numa sou aplicação... mas coloca tudo proprietário. Como pode o desgraçado chinês (ou em vez da China podemos usar um país que não tenha relações diplomáticas com os EUA) fazer valer os seus direitos? ----------------- Ainda em relação às recentes medidas legislativas da Alemanha, sem levantar muita polémica: 1. Para refutar a minha questão o João Neves diz que a Lei do Copyright é quase igual para todos, por isso não interessava para nada termos a tais medidas para estudo. Ok! Tudo bem... 2. Mas logo a seguir disse que não era necessário para nós porque se referiam a uma particularidade da Alemanha. Bom! Em que ficamos. Eu fiquei sem perceber se a nossa lei, nesta área, é igual sequer à dos outros países da CE, quanto mais ao resto do mundo (os que têm os mesmos acordos) !?! 1. Se é igual então devemos implementar as referidas alterações na nossa própria Legislação, porque se a deles não tinha a nossa também não tem. 2. Pelos vistos sempre existem particularidades que convém estudar e comparar. Há a certeza que a nossa Legislação não sofre do mesmo problema que sofria a da Alemanha? E quanto mais não seja, eu acho que deviamos ir criando um repositório de Acções Legislativas efectuadas nos outros países para juntar ao "dossier político". Isto é só uma opinião. Eu acho que é sempre melhor apresentar as coisas com exemplos, mesmo que não se apliquem directamente ao caso que estudamos. No caso do Software Livre não serve de nada dizer que é bom sem exemplos. Na Legislação também não devem fazer mal nenhum à nossa acção, pelo contrário. Já agora... aqui fica outra notícia interessante. Why Linux made inroads at financial institutions http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/12/1755231 Anonymous Reader points out an article that was published at FT.com: "When the loss of about 1,000 computer servers in the World Trade Center attacks put Lehman Brothers in the market to buy millions of dollars of systems, it looked at a slightly unorthodox option: Linux, an operating system that is as noteworthy for its speed as for the fact that its source code is free. Now that it has tested a Linux system in-house, Lehman plans to replace ... 1[], Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 15 19:43:07 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 15 18:43:07 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where is the source? (part II) Message-ID: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Parece que nem de propósito :-) Commentary: Open letter to Michael Robertson from Bruce Perens http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/13/1331214 Dear Michael Robertson, I don't think we've met, but you and I are partners. I'm one of the authors of the "Lindows" system." 1[], Lopo From joao arroba silvaneves.org Mon Apr 15 20:23:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Mon Apr 15 19:23:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito de Autor e Leis (era Re: Where's the source?) In-Reply-To: <005401c1e4a4$3341bc00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <005401c1e4a4$3341bc00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1018894696.458.6.camel@central> --=-EJiQk+WLwgC+ZYO77lc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Seg, 2002-04-15 at 18:21, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ainda em rela=E7=E3o =E0s recentes medidas legislativas da Alemanha, sem = levantar > muita pol=E9mica: >=20 > 1. Para refutar a minha quest=E3o o Jo=E3o Neves diz que a Lei do Copyrig= ht =E9 > quase igual para todos, por isso n=E3o interessava para nada termos a tai= s > medidas para estudo. Ok! Tudo bem... Sim, =E9 verdade. > 2. Mas logo a seguir disse que n=E3o era necess=E1rio para n=F3s porque s= e > referiam a uma particularidade da Alemanha. >=20 A Alemanha tem 2 especificidades na sua legisla=E7=E3o de direitos de autor= : a n=E3o exist=EAncia da no=E7=E3o de dom=EDnio p=FAblico e a obrigatoriedad= e de contrapartidas pela distribui=E7=E3o de uma obra, o que deixa para a=ED 99%= da lei igual =E0 portuguesa, =E0 francesa e =E0 americana (que s=E3o as que j= =E1 li). Tamb=E9m a legisla=E7=E3o portuguesa tem algumas particularidades que n=E3o= se encontram nos outros pa=EDses, mas a base =E9 sempre a mesma. > Bom! Em que ficamos. Eu fiquei sem perceber se a nossa lei, nesta =E1rea,= =E9 > igual sequer =E0 dos outros pa=EDses da CE, quanto mais ao resto do mundo= (os > que t=EAm os mesmos acordos) !?! >=20 Por acaso a nossa legisla=E7=E3o =E9 mais pr=F3xima da americana do que da europeia (=E0 excep=E7=E3o da DMCA). Mas nenhuma =E9 exactamente igual =E0s outras. > 2. Pelos vistos sempre existem particularidades que conv=E9m estudar e > comparar. H=E1 a certeza que a nossa Legisla=E7=E3o n=E3o sofre do mesmo = problema > que sofria a da Alemanha? >=20 Sim. > E quanto mais n=E3o seja, eu acho que deviamos ir criando um reposit=F3ri= o de > Ac=E7=F5es Legislativas efectuadas nos outros pa=EDses para juntar ao "do= ssier > pol=EDtico". Isto =E9 s=F3 uma opini=E3o. Eu acho que =E9 sempre melhor a= presentar as > coisas com exemplos, mesmo que n=E3o se apliquem directamente ao caso que > estudamos. >=20 Estou a tratar disto no que toca a legisla=E7=E3o de promo=E7=E3o do Softwa= re Livre. Existe a do Peru que foi referida na lista recentemente, uma na Argentina e uma proposta de lei francesa que n=E3o sei qual =E9 o resultado= . Se algu=E9m souber de mais alguma, avise. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-EJiQk+WLwgC+ZYO77lc7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8uxllGFkMfesLN9wRAv+TAJ9W+niDbpL1dwlW71/k6L4Jhu1FeACfSwgP zLeWk1iUBLPjh5c/pDIwO18= =DSq8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-EJiQk+WLwgC+ZYO77lc7-- From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 15 20:43:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 15 19:43:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where is the source? (part II) In-Reply-To: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: Em Segunda, 15 de Abril de 2002 18:37, escreveste: > Parece que nem de propósito :-) > > Commentary: Open letter to Michael Robertson from Bruce Perens > http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/13/1331214 > > Dear Michael Robertson, I don't think we've met, but you and I are > partners. I'm one of the authors of the "Lindows" system." > Eu não tinha conhecimento da história da COREL. Grandes filhos da ***!!! "Então, é software livre! Quer um software livre? Bem passadinho??" E ninguém fez nada? Ninguém apertou os tomates? Ninguém processou-os até ao tutano? (se eu vivesse nos EUA, passava o tempo nos tribunais... Ou transformava-me em advogado maligno a passar anúncios na televisão: "- Não gosta de alguém? Fale conosco! Se dividir conosco metade das indemnizações, nós vamos consigo até ao FIM para chatear esse gajo!!!") E não há ninguém a chatear os gajos que ficaram comos restos do COREL LINUX? (Hoje realmente acordei mal disposto...) Um abraço, André Esteves From ajc arroba eurotux.com Tue Apr 16 12:02:01 2002 From: ajc arroba eurotux.com (Antonio Jose Coutinho) Date: Tue Apr 16 11:02:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where is the source? (part II) In-Reply-To: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: On Monday 15 April 2002 18:37, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Parece que nem de propósito :-) > > Commentary: Open letter to Michael Robertson from Bruce Perens > http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/13/1331214 > > Dear Michael Robertson, I don't think we've met, but you and I are > partners. I'm one of the authors of the "Lindows" system." > Esta intervenção do Burce Perens está excelente, e mostra como é possível defender a GPL com diversos tipos de argumentos, conforme a audiencia a que se destina. Uma defesa possível é a de falar em liberdades e bater no software proprietário, etc... Essa estratégia pode convencer certo tipo de pessoas, mas não as que realmente importam para os tipos da Lindows: as empresas que lhes podem comprar os produtos. Para essas muito facilmente esta defesa pareceria um ataque de anarquistas contra o próprio conceito de empresa lucrativa, e seria ignorado. Muito pouca gente tem a bagagem para perceber as questões filosóficas, por isso a muita gente reagiria com algo do tipo: "lá estão estes gajos a crtiicar quem ousa fazer alguma coisa que se veja!" A defesa do Perens é muito melhor para ser entendida por empresas. O que e diz é: estás a usar código meu, protegido por uma licença chamada GPL. Podes usa-lo desde que a cumpras. Não estás a cumprir, por isso estás a violar o contrato que tens comigo e com muito outros. Qualquer economista ou advogado percebe logo quem tem razão no caso. A escolha de argumentos é importante e dela vai depender a eficácia que a ANSOL pode ou não vir a ter na defesa do sofware livre. Cumprimentos, ajc From rms arroba 1407.org Tue Apr 16 13:05:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Tue Apr 16 12:05:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where is the source? (part II) In-Reply-To: References: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1018954754.1620.43.camel@roque> --=-i0vb1ooxw4i7N5l4WK7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Viva, On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 10:56, Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: > > Commentary: Open letter to Michael Robertson from Bruce Perens > > http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=3D02/04/13/1331214 > > Dear Michael Robertson, I don't think we've met, but you and I are > > partners. I'm one of the authors of the "Lindows" system." > Esta interven=E7=E3o do Burce Perens est=E1 excelente, e mostra como =E9 = poss=EDvel=20 > defender a GPL com diversos tipos de argumentos, conforme a audiencia a = que=20 > se destina. (...) > A defesa do Perens =E9 muito melhor para ser entendida por empresas. > O que e diz =E9: est=E1s a usar c=F3digo meu, protegido por uma licen=E7a= chamada=20 > GPL. Podes usa-lo desde que a cumpras. N=E3o est=E1s a cumprir, por isso = est=E1s a=20 > violar o contrato que tens comigo e com muito outros. Qualquer economista= ou=20 > advogado percebe logo quem tem raz=E3o no caso.=20 A defesa do Bruce Perens nao foi uma defesa pro-activa mas reactiva. Enquanto que um tipo de argumentos pertencem a gama da defesa pro-activa, outros ha, evidentemente para uma defesa reactiva. Espero que nos nao precisemos nunca de ter uma defesa reactiva localmente. > A escolha de argumentos =E9 importante e dela vai depender a efic=E1cia q= ue a=20 > ANSOL pode ou n=E3o vir a ter na defesa do sofware livre. A escolha de argumentos depende do tipo de situacao. Defender falando nas liberdades que o Software Livre garante e criticar o software propriet=E1rio pelas suas restricoes ao utilizador, e a via pro-activa. A (boa) carta do Bruce Perens esta a reagir ao facto de, (apos infrutiferas conversas privadas) a FSF ter reclamado (e muito bem) pelo cumprimento da licenca e o pessoal do Lindows ter reagido como reagiu, com desprezo, em vez de o respeitar. Portanto, o que estavas mesmo a querer comparar? Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-i0vb1ooxw4i7N5l4WK7e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8vAQCo+C50no0+t4RAtOqAJ0UrBRz9DebiMtLv/0EiuFhxe+AxQCgvUsy g34xW9ypEDo8qtUtwbAOxDc= =Br92 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-i0vb1ooxw4i7N5l4WK7e-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Tue Apr 16 17:09:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Tue Apr 16 16:09:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party Message-ID: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Viva. Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma sessao de esclarecimentos da associacao ? ---- Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From tramos arroba ciberguia.pt Tue Apr 16 18:34:01 2002 From: tramos arroba ciberguia.pt (Tiago Ramos) Date: Tue Apr 16 17:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party In-Reply-To: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <001d01c1e563$b5d34750$4500a8c0@pretender> Eu tenho bons conhecimentos l=E1 se for preciso avisem!=20 -----Original Message----- From: ansol-geral-admin@listas.ansol.org [mailto:ansol-geral-admin@listas.ansol.org] On Behalf Of Vitor Domingos Sent: ter=E7a-feira, 16 de Abril de 2002 15:45 To: Ansol Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party Viva. Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma sessao de esclarecimentos da associacao ? ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." _______________________________________________ Ansol-geral mailing list Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Tue Apr 16 18:45:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Tue Apr 16 17:45:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Processo de pagamento de Joia - Via NIB Message-ID: <20020416174000.5595154b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Depois de ver a pagina de inscricao no Minho Campus Party, pareceu-me rel= ativamente simples a forma que eles possuem para se poder fazer pagar ins= cricoes, joias, cotas, whatever via web. Faz-se uma inscricao via web...=20 Da'-se os dados necessarios. Transfere-se para o NIB indicado..=20 e.. "Depois de tratado o pagamento dever=E1 accionar a op=E7=E3o CONFIRMA=C7=C3= O DA INSCRI=C7=C3O no menu INSCRI=C7=C3O. A=ED dever=E1 indicar o n=FAmer= o da conta banc=E1ria a partir da qual fez a transfer=EAncia e o nome do = t=EDtular da mesma, ou o n=FAmero da conta banc=E1ria a que diz respeito = o cheque enviado e qual o banco a que pertence o cheque. Dever=E1 tamb=E9= m indicar o seu identificador (n=FAmero do bilhete de identidade). Isso p= ermitir=E1 =E0 organiza=E7=E3o identificar o pagamento e confirmar a rese= rva definitiva do lugar na Minho Campus Party." Simples, nao ?=20 Ou esta'-me a escapar algo ? Rui Leite, ainda estou 'a espera do que e' necessario saber-se relativame= nte a ivas, etc et al... ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From aife arroba netvisao.pt Tue Apr 16 22:03:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Tue Apr 16 21:03:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Where is the source? (part II) In-Reply-To: References: <005501c1e4a4$335a2600$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: Em Terça, 16 de Abril de 2002 10:56, escreveste: > A defesa do Perens é muito melhor para ser entendida por empresas. > O que e diz é: estás a usar código meu, protegido por uma licença chamada > GPL. Podes usa-lo desde que a cumpras. Não estás a cumprir, por isso estás > a violar o contrato que tens comigo e com muito outros. Qualquer economista > ou advogado percebe logo quem tem razão no caso. > > A escolha de argumentos é importante e dela vai depender a eficácia que a > ANSOL pode ou não vir a ter na defesa do sofware livre. Concordo, a escolha dos argumentos é importante. No entanto, o argumento que o Perens apresenta é um argumento reactivo... ou seja: aceitas-te o GPL, agora cumpre... Com argumentos destes, acaba-mos por amedrontar as empresas com culturas corporativas "conservadoras"... O que não deve também perseguir os infractores. O ponto é que o fundamento do GPL, está apoiado numa visão das 4 liberdades e isto é dificíl para um mercado que está habituado a utilizar a supressão dessas liberdades e a criação de monopólios de ídeias para obter lucro e segurança. Talvez a melhor visão do software livre seja deste como um campo de pasto comunitário. A impressão que eu tenho é que nas empresas americanas a têndencia para ver o GPL é predatória... ou seja, "vão nos impedir de obter lucro". A reacção nas empresas europeias é um bocado diferente... é mais: "vão nos tirar a segurança!" Será que andamos a bater na porta errada? ou pelo menos os americanos andam... A ideia do software livre como o pasto comunal, encaixa quando os intervenientes estão num nível de paridade e igualdade entre si. Ou seja, fazendo uma analogia, todos os donos de vacas lucram por ter um pasto grande e em condições,e no entanto, competem nos queijos, natas, manteiga e afins... A empresa que se ajusta mais e fazendo a analogia, é a pequena PME de informática, formação e serviços. O software livre permite-lhe ter acesso (que num software proprietário nunca teria) ao código fonte e ao conhecimento comunal sobre os programas, que lhe permitem uma posição mais competitiva nas soluções dos seus clientes quando adapta software livre para uma solução in-house de um seu cliente através de out-sorcing (Quaisquer aplicações estratégicas do seu cliente estão protegidas, desde que este não as venda no mercado, aí terá que respeitar o GPL). (Claro que isto também pôe problemas na auto-regulação do pasto... Quem é que impede de uma grande empresa, com maiores departamento de marketing e com economia de escala, conseguir viver á custa dos pequeninos sem retribuir... poder-se-á argumentar que ao escolher o software livre ela acabará por trazer mais utilizadores, e aí terá haver competição como em todos os mercados... e a inovação dos pequenos, rápidos e vorazes será o seu conhecimento de partes específicas ou novas do código...) É esta percepção subtil de onde acaba o pasto comunal e começa a quinta do agricultor que faz falta e que urge desenvolver e educar! No entanto, para que haja uma margem de segurança para o adjuvante do software livre é necessário que ele não seja obrigado a inventar a roda... o software livre deve dar-lhe um kit quase completo de uma roda ou pelo menos a linha de produção de rodas (notem a diferença com: as ferramentas que lhe permitem construir a roda...) Ou seja.. A empresa que quiser sobreviver do software livre, precisa de ter uma percepção bastante desenvolvida do seu produto e do mercado, o que também lhe dá maior competividade... O perfil a defender é de uma PME pequena com alguns programadores que contribuem para o software livre de interesse estratégico para a empresa. No entanto são eles deverão estar integrados num grupo de afinidade dentro da empresa que inclui os criadores das adaptações e/ou produtos com software livre, da formação e formação. Remoendo.. remoendo... Um abraço, André Esteves From ajc arroba eurotux.com Tue Apr 16 23:35:02 2002 From: ajc arroba eurotux.com (Antonio Jose Coutinho) Date: Tue Apr 16 22:35:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party In-Reply-To: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: On Tuesday 16 April 2002 15:44, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Viva. > > Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? > Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma sessao de > esclarecimentos da associacao ? > Bem, o ano passado fui eu que fiz os convites para a área Linux. da Campus Party e tambem sou capaz ter alguma coisa a ver com o assunto este ano... :) ajc From hnogueira arroba april.org Wed Apr 17 00:09:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Tue Apr 16 23:09:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]AVISO: =?iso-8859-15?q?O uso do chap=E9u=20GNU?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20trazconsequ=EAncias sociais=2E=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <1018891782.1186.1.camel@jung> References: <3C88B169007DCB78@mail.libertysurf.net> <1018891782.1186.1.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3C965BC2005EB7E6@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > > > Ou podemos fazer refer=EAncia a todas. Assim n=E3o causamos favorec= imentos > > > > Sabes quantas distrubui=E7oes Linux e empresas de servi=E7o fazendo b= usiness > > com Linux e "Open-Source" existem ? ;-) > > Muitas. > > Quando digo todas, espero que seja subentendido por todos que me refiro > =E0s mais proeminentes apenas. E como =E9 que fazes a escolha sem ofenser ninguem ;) ? Hugo. From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 17 03:13:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 17 02:13:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Copyright e TTF Message-ID: <00ad01c1e5ac$4554b740$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Ainda acerca das fontes e do copyright... e da problemática do potencial "roubo" de software GPL. Só para descontrair vejam o que se passa com a problemática das fontes TrueType ;-) http://www.moorstation.org/typoasis/quick/qu1.htm (browser gráfico requerido) Muito interessante vêr como eles "roubam" descaradamente e ainda por cima têm o desplante de colocar fontes com copyright de outras empresas (ou Freeware) com o seu próprio copyright... indescritível :-D É que o problema, como eu falei em outro email, não está em temer o "roubo" das grandes aplicações lecenciadas com GPL (ou quejandas) como o Linux e/ou GNOME, mas sim naquelas pequenas aplicações que podem ter um futuro potencial económico oculto à primeira vista. 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 17 03:33:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 17 02:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Flash and Open Source Message-ID: <00f201c1e5af$0d1fa620$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Se alguém quiser, souber e puder responder ;-) Flash and Open Source http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/15/1932251 [0]Anders Schneiderman asks: "I'm involved in a project that's planning to create open source toys for educating people around complicated policy questions (e.g., policy on prescription drugs). We'd really like to use Flash as our main language, but we're concerned about the fact that the major Flash development tools cost $500--more than some of the community group folks we want to involve can afford. I took a look at Sourceforge, and while there are plenty of projects that offer ways to create Flash for free, there didn't seem to be any v.1 general development tools. Did I miss something? If you want to build Flash and you don't want to pay $500, how do you do it (aside from copying somebody else's, which as Bill Gates told us is just bad, bad, bad)? And if there aren't any powerful open source tools for it, any thoughts on why?" Links 0. mailto:schneida@seiu.org From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 17 03:33:06 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 17 02:33:06 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Algumas acções interessantes... Message-ID: <00f301c1e5af$0d3996c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Learn About Ximian and Gnome From Nat Friedman http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/11/1516255 This week's interview guest is Nat Friedman, co-founder and vice president of product development for [0]Ximian. Nat is also co-chair of [1]The Gnome Foundation, and an all-around nice guy. Post your questions (one per post, please) for Nat below. We'll forward 10 of the highest-moderated ones to him, and will post his answers (verbatim except for HTML formatting) within the next week. Links 0. http://www.ximian.com/ 1. http://foundation.gnome.org/ Viva pessoal, Este é um tipo de acções que eu acho que a ANSOL poderia fazer. Forum moderado com elementos interessantes da comunidade do Software Livre e outros sobre temáticas que poderiam ser interessantes e educativas. 1, Lopo From sitaar arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 17 14:02:01 2002 From: sitaar arroba sitaar.com (sitaar!COM) Date: Wed Apr 17 13:02:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]OEone: Um Linux Diferente Message-ID: <004d01c1e605$675c1f00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Gostei imenso de vêr o OEone... embora não saiba ainda se funciona bem :-) Este é um projecto OpenSource muito interessante que mostra que o Linux TAMBÉM pode ser um bom concorrente à filosofia do Microsoft Windows XP num futuro muito próximo. A vêr: http://www.oeone.com Alguns artigos: Open For Buziness http://www.ofb.biz/article.php?sid=93&mode=&order=0 Newsforge http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/10/1922249 1, Lopo From rms arroba 1407.org Wed Apr 17 15:50:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Wed Apr 17 14:50:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]OEone: Um Linux Diferente In-Reply-To: <004d01c1e605$675c1f00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <004d01c1e605$675c1f00$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019051050.2907.16.camel@roque> --=-7EDdeEJlCkmZJDmrjJRU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 12:29, sitaar!COM wrote: > Gostei imenso de v=EAr o OEone... embora n=E3o saiba ainda se funciona be= m :-) > Este =E9 um projecto OpenSource muito interessante que mostra que o Linux > TAMB=C9M pode ser um bom concorrente =E0 filosofia do Microsoft Windows X= P num > futuro muito pr=F3ximo. Estes senhores estiveram bem perto de levarem com um processo em cima por nao respeitarem a GPL, apos mais de seis meses de conversas com os develpers de pelo menos um dos programas envolvidos. Alem do mais, a parte de processamento de texto e baseada num AbiWord MUITO ANTIGO e que nem vale a pena mencionar mais sequer! :) hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-7EDdeEJlCkmZJDmrjJRU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8vXwqo+C50no0+t4RAl4xAJ4hjN000asGhZblgR61ah81RQFwPACgzWAe WWSdOnmV9Q/gOIRbmxdp88Y= =Q9bG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-7EDdeEJlCkmZJDmrjJRU-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 17 17:29:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 17 16:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party In-Reply-To: References: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020417162439.690b446c.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Porreiro!=20 Quantos convites calham 'a ansol ? ;)=20 Existe a possibilidade de podermos comparecer e fazer alguma sessao de es= clarecimento ? .. Algo do genero .. nao sei.. On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:29:45 +0100 Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: > On Tuesday 16 April 2002 15:44, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Viva. > > > > Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? > > Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma sessa= o de > > esclarecimentos da associacao ? > > > Bem, o ano passado fui eu que fiz os convites para a =E1rea Linux. da C= ampus=20 > Party e tambem sou capaz ter alguma coisa a ver com o assunto este ano.= .. >=20 > :) >=20 > ajc >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From rleite arroba nocturno.org Wed Apr 17 20:01:01 2002 From: rleite arroba nocturno.org (Rui Leite) Date: Wed Apr 17 19:01:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Processo de pagamento de Joia - Via NIB In-Reply-To: <20020416174000.5595154b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020416174000.5595154b.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1019066130.843.2.camel@localhost> --=-YjCrRj9kPvsTZSN7sYfO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 17:40, Vitor Domingos wrote:=20 > Rui Leite, ainda estou 'a espera do que e' necessario saber-se relativame= nte a ivas, etc et al... Para j=E1 pelos vistos n=E3o =E9 preciso nada. Pelo menos de muito urgente = :-) Eu j=E1 comuniquei com o Jaime para come=E7armos a cobrar as quotas mas ele ainda n=E3o respondeu. Quando tiver novidades logo saber=E3o. Sauda=E7=F5es, Rui Leite --=20 Rui M. Leite <2 arroba 3 nocturno 1 rleite 4 ponto 5 org> --=-YjCrRj9kPvsTZSN7sYfO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8vbcSzPGKuD122fYRArLJAJ9+lJK67AXN97Njga2QFLFu9Os3IgCdF2ta FxnqSxxdX7/ZHcCgDXV7xu8= =YKp7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-YjCrRj9kPvsTZSN7sYfO-- From ajc arroba eurotux.com Wed Apr 17 20:04:02 2002 From: ajc arroba eurotux.com (Antonio Jose Coutinho) Date: Wed Apr 17 19:04:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party In-Reply-To: <20020417162439.690b446c.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020417162439.690b446c.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <02041719595801.14089@verne> On Wednesday 17 April 2002 16:24, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Porreiro! > > > Quantos convites calham 'a ansol ? ;) > > > Existe a possibilidade de podermos comparecer e fazer alguma sessao > de esclarecimento ? .. Algo do genero .. nao sei.. > > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:29:45 +0100 > > Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: > > On Tuesday 16 April 2002 15:44, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > > Viva. > > > > > > Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? > > > Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma > > > sessao de esclarecimentos da associacao ? > > > > Bem, o ano passado fui eu que fiz os convites para a área Linux. da > > Campus Party e tambem sou capaz ter alguma coisa a ver com o > > assunto este ano.... > > > > :) > > > > ajc > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ansol-geral mailing list > > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral > > ---- > Cumprimentos, > Vitor Domingos > --------------- > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral -- -- António José Coutinho, Eng Administrador Eurotux - Informática S.A From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 17 20:11:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 17 19:11:02 2002 Subject: Ajuda no email - Re: [ANSOL-geral]Minhu Campus Party In-Reply-To: <02041719472000.14089@verne> References: <20020416154456.0b1a14f6.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <20020417162439.690b446c.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <02041719472000.14089@verne> Message-ID: <20020417190555.26a9fa03.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Uma ajuda ao AJC :)=20 On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 19:47:20 +0100 Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: > On Wednesday 17 April 2002 16:24, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Porreiro! > > > > > > Quantos convites calham 'a ansol ? ;) > > > > > > Existe a possibilidade de podermos comparecer e fazer alguma sessao > > de esclarecimento ? .. Algo do genero .. nao sei.. > > >=20 > Claro que sim.=20 > Mas acho que para j=E1 ainda n=E3o est=E1 nada definido. >=20 > ajc >=20 > > > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:29:45 +0100 > > > > Antonio Jose Coutinho wrote: > > > On Tuesday 16 April 2002 15:44, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > > > Viva. > > > > > > > > Sera' que vale a pena a ANSOL participar ? > > > > Nao se consegue falar com pessoas da organizacao para haver uma > > > > sessao de esclarecimentos da associacao ? > > > > > > Bem, o ano passado fui eu que fiz os convites para a =E1rea Linux. = da > > > Campus Party e tambem sou capaz ter alguma coisa a ver com o > > > assunto este ano.... > > > > > > :) > > > > > > ajc > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ansol-geral mailing list > > > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > > > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral > > > > ---- > > Cumprimentos, > > Vitor Domingos > > --------------- > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ansol-geral mailing list > > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral >=20 > --=20 > -- > Ant=F3nio Jos=E9 Coutinho, Eng > Administrador > Eurotux - Inform=E1tica S.A >=20 From fmaia arroba gmx.net Thu Apr 18 21:11:02 2002 From: fmaia arroba gmx.net (Filipe Maia) Date: Thu Apr 18 20:11:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Caixa =?ISO-8859-1?B?beFnaWNh?= - =?ISO-8859-1?B?dmVyc+NvIGVzdOF2ZQ==?= l Message-ID: <20020418200322.5d9f2d69.fmaia@gmx.net> Acho que isto é do interesse de muitos. From: Paulo Trezentos Newsgroups: pt.comp.so.linux Subject: Caixa Mágica - versão estável Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:35:20 +0100 Organization: ISCTE - Av. Forcas Armadas - 1600 Lisboa - PORTUGAL X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) Viva! Como aqui foi falado na primeira versão estável da CM, aqui fica uma informação em primeira mão (ainda antes do Tek sapo, gildot e afins): vai sair juntamente com a Exame Informática com uma tiragem de 42.000 exemplares. Será distribuída entre assinantes e banca sem qualquer encargo adicional. Também existe no site a possibilidade de download ou envio para casa. Um abraço. -- *----------------------------------------------------------------* | .''`. | Filipe Maia | | : :' : | email: fmaia@gmx.net | | `. `'` | | | `- | Debian GNU/Linux: | *----------------------------------------------------------------* From aife arroba netvisao.pt Fri Apr 19 11:22:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Fri Apr 19 10:22:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Isto anda bonito... Message-ID: Caros membros da lista, Caso não tenham ainda visto o link no slashdot, vejam a análise que a eff faz do chamado "patriot act": http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html Já se têm receio de usar o google!! Esta lista anda morta, ou sou eu que estou com problemas de mail routing? Um abraço, André Esteves From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 19 13:01:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Fri Apr 19 12:01:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [mress@essential.org: [Hague-jur-commercial-law] Techdaily story on the Hague] In-Reply-To: <200204190526.g3J5QLI00917@aztec.santafe.edu>; from rms@gnu.org on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 11:26:21PM -0600 References: <200204190526.g3J5QLI00917@aztec.santafe.edu> Message-ID: <20020419115548.S10060@fe.up.pt> Viva, Richard Stallman pede-nos que por favor tentemos fazer chegar a informa=E7= =E3o anexa a jornalistas e pol=EDticos com quem tivermos contacto. Vai ter lugar uma reuni=E3o sobre direito interncaional na Holanda, na pr= =F3xima semana, e os Estados Unidos v=E3o propor um tratado que vai impor mais li= mites =E0 liberdade de express=E3o, e que poderia chegar a extender =E0 Europa as p= atentes de software americanas, independentemente de que a comunidade europeia re= jeite as patentes de software. Jaime > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > From: Manon Ress > Organization: Essential Information > X-Accept-Language: en > To: haguelist , > Jeffrey Kovar > Subject: [Hague-jur-commercial-law] Techdaily story on the Hague > Sender: hague-jur-commercial-law-admin@venice.essential.org > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:43:33 -0400 >=20 > E-Commerce=20 > U.S. May Face Opposition On Narrow Jurisdictional Treaty > by William New=20 >=20 > National Journal's Technology Daily > http://nationaljournal.com/pubs/techdaily/ >=20 > The United States may find itself in the minority in pushing for a > narrow agenda at next week's meeting to discuss an international treaty > on jurisdiction in cross-border online transactions, officials said > Tuesday.=20 > =20 > Top officials working on a convention on commercial and civil judgments > being negotiated at The Hague Conference on Private International Law > will convene April 22-24 in the Netherlands. The officials are meeting > to decide whether the project should proceed, and if so, how. The > negotiation has been stuck since a three-week meeting last June ended i= n > disagreement.=20 >=20 > The United States favors moving forward on some less controversial > provisions within the broader draft treaty, according to the lead U.S. > official in the negotiation.=20 >=20 > "We would like the other members of the Hague Conference to focus on > those elements of the comprehensive draft that are achievable now and > forgo those other elements until the time is right to address them," > said State Department lawyer Jeffrey Kovar, head of the U.S. delegation. > Kovar will attend the meeting next week.=20 >=20 > But in communications with other Hague-member governments in the past > week, it has become clear that support is building among most other > participating nations to proceed with the full text, a Bush > administration official said.=20 >=20 > Australia has been particularly strong in pushing that approach, > proposing a return to the original draft treaty that dates to 1999. > Canada and the European Union, and possibly Japan, also have signaled > support for a comprehensive treaty negotiation.=20 >=20 > The official said the United States likely would not sign the > comprehensive treaty as it is stands. But the prospect of being left ou= t > of the treaty sent ripples through some interested parties Wednesday.=20 >=20 > "The worst outcome would be that we're not a part of it," one > private-sector observer said. "If the whole world has an agreement, > we're subject to it but don't have any say in its scope and > implementation."=20 >=20 > The United States would prefer to limit negotiations to basic rules on > recognition and enforcement, business-to-business contracts, > choice-of-forum clauses determining before online purchases the > jurisdiction of disputes, and physical torts, such as product liability. > A narrower draft would allow in-depth discussions on each area rather > than repeating past stalemates, one source said.=20 >=20 > More controversial issues include business-to-consumer contracts, > treatment of intellectual property issues, such as patents, trademarks > and copyrights, and the definition of residence. Torts on non-physical > issues, such as information, also get sticky.=20 >=20 > In a non-governmental meeting on the Hague treaty Tuesday at the > American Library Association, consumer groups showed concern about > standards of defamation in the treaty. Countries like China have been > criticized for using such standards to control free speech.=20 >=20 > Libraries expressed concern that their right to freely download > information for research purposes might be threatened under the > provisions on contracts. They are seeking an exception for such > "non-negotiated" contracts. > _______________________________________________ > Hague-jur-commercial-law mailing list > Hague-jur-commercial-law@lists.essential.org > http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/hague-jur-commercial-law > ------- End of forwarded message ------- From sitaar arroba sitaar.com Sat Apr 20 02:30:02 2002 From: sitaar arroba sitaar.com (sitaar!COM) Date: Sat Apr 20 01:30:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Uma outra visão dos direitos de autor nas publicações Message-ID: <002001c1e7a4$b83023e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Sharing Doesn't Hurt http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/17/2048250 Freeptop writes "Here's a fun followup to [0]an old slashdot article: Eric Flint just posted another [1]Prime Palaver article on the [2]Baen Free Library. In this article of his, he talks about the effects of posting his books for free on the library. Specifically, he uses his own royalty statements to show that sales for his books have gone up whenever he has made them available for free. As usual, Mr. Flint writes a well thought out article demonstrating the pointlessness of encrypting e-books, and this time, he has proof to back up his assumptions." Links 0. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/01/09/1852240 1. http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm 2. http://www.baen.com/library/ From rms arroba 1407.org Sat Apr 20 18:08:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 20 17:08:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Software Livre e a UNESCO Message-ID: <1019318524.1396.43.camel@roque> --=-H2IPyVoq3MVI4EyEInl1 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.unesco.org/webworld/portal_freesoft/index.shtml With its Free Software Portal, UNESCO intends to provide a single interactive access point to information for users who wish to understand and follow the Free Software movement, to learn why it is important and to apply the concept. --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-H2IPyVoq3MVI4EyEInl1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wZD8o+C50no0+t4RAvSjAJ472cxMlHZqlQLfG2eL0PHqIxkbHgCglTEm 4V5SwZyT7qa6ucLWYHW6fiM= =hGs6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-H2IPyVoq3MVI4EyEInl1-- From Diogo Santos Sat Apr 20 19:54:01 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Sat Apr 20 18:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby Message-ID: Olá a todos! Bem parece-me que já está na altura, de voltarmos a preparar reuniões e contactos com os "politicos", penso que eles já tiveram tempo para esperimentar as suas novas cadeiras e por isso tá na hora de os re-lembrar que nós existimos. O tempo não pára e há neste momento um clima "anti-terrorista", "anti-pedrasta" e de "anti-pirataria", que está a ser aproveitado para aprovar leis altamente prejudiciais para a Liberdade. Temos por exemplo as tentativas que estão a ser levadas a cabo em Espanha e França, LSSI (Ley de Servicios de la Sociedad de la Information) em Espanha e a LSI (Loi sur la société de l'information) em França. Fikem bem! -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From rms arroba 1407.org Sat Apr 20 20:15:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 20 19:15:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1019326157.2883.13.camel@roque> --=-bIATxOznpj/z+0I5Imrn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ola Diogo, Abriste (e muito bem) a thread que eu andava a hesitar em abrir. On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 19:48, Diogo Santos wrote: > Bem parece-me que j=E1 est=E1 na altura, de voltarmos a preparar reuni= =F5es e > contactos com os "politicos", penso que eles j=E1 tiveram tempo para espe= rimentar > as suas novas cadeiras e por isso t=E1 na hora de os re-lembrar que n=F3s > existimos. Nao tenho recebido contacto nem do Dr. (?) Rui Rosa nem do Dr. (?) Jose Magalhaes (espero que me perdoem se me engano no titulo). O Dr. Jose Magalhaes ainda usara este email: zmaglh@ps.parlamento.pt ? Enviei-lhe um email no dia 13 perguntando se teria disponibilidade para falar sobre patentes de software e a EUCD, mas nao tive resposta ate agora, nem sequer de um erro de smtp. Pode ainda estar demasiado ocupado (afinal nao passou ASSIM tanto tempo quanto isso, so 7 dias), mas se calhar vou ter de tirar uma manha para fazer uma visita a AR... O Eng. (?) Diogo Vasconcelos nao ficou como ministro que afecte a nossa area. Conclusao, ficou com alguma secretaria de estado que nos afecte, ou sera melhor comecar-mos a tentar falar com o Sr. Ministro da Ciencia e Ensino Superior, Dr. (?) Pedro Lynce? BE? Ficou de haver algum contacto, como e que estamos? Sem contacto? E preciso falar com urgencia com eles, pois foram os primeiros a introduzir o Software Livre na politica e a maneira como o fizeram nao foi decididamente a melhor. Alguem deve ter falado com eles, mas nao o fez da melhor maneira ou entao eles confudiram-se um bocado. > O tempo n=E3o p=E1ra e h=E1 neste momento um clima "anti-terrorista", > "anti-pedrasta" e de "anti-pirataria", que est=E1 a ser aproveitado para = aprovar > leis altamente prejudiciais para a Liberdade. Temos por exemplo as tentat= ivas > que est=E3o a ser levadas a cabo em Espanha e Fran=E7a, LSSI (Ley de Serv= icios de > la Sociedad de la Information) em Espanha e a LSI (Loi sur la soci=E9t=E9= de > l'information) em Fran=E7a. Exactamente. Estamos inclusive num periodo sensivel onde se podem passar varias leis, sob a egide da contencao de despesas ou arrecadacao de maiores fundos, que podem ser estrategicamente vantajosos para o nosso lado, se bem apresentados. Atencao: faca-se o que se fizer, temos de conseguir elucidar o governo, em primeiro lugar, para os maleficios da EUCD e das patentes de software. Mas sinceramente, tenho medo que o governo nao queira neste momento fazer frente a Uniao Europiea... o que vai ser preciso ao nivel das patentes de software e da EUCD. Abracos, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-bIATxOznpj/z+0I5Imrn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wa7No+C50no0+t4RAmQNAJ43qulTtBndO7tRxs8uS7dESETwwgCffENU SqqLA2sH0lqfNbs2P1uR2Gg= =fpGY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-bIATxOznpj/z+0I5Imrn-- From Diogo Santos Sat Apr 20 22:12:01 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Sat Apr 20 21:12:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby Message-ID: > O Eng. (?) Diogo Vasconcelos nao ficou como ministro que afecte a nossa > area. Conclusao, ficou com alguma secretaria de estado que nos afecte, > ou sera melhor comecar-mos a tentar falar com o Sr. Ministro da Ciencia > e Ensino Superior, Dr. (?) Pedro Lynce? Acho que o ministro da ciência é o Dr.(?) Manuel Fernandes Tomaz (CDS/PP). Eu vou ver se reuno mais informações sobre a possivel receptividade do titular da pasta. > BE? Ficou de haver algum contacto, como e que estamos? Sem contacto? E > preciso falar com urgencia com eles, pois foram os primeiros a > introduzir o Software Livre na politica e a maneira como o fizeram nao > foi decididamente a melhor. Alguem deve ter falado com eles, mas nao o > fez da melhor maneira ou entao eles confudiram-se um bocado. Acho que foi o Vasco Figueira que falou com o Francisco Louçâ, aquando da sua visita ao IST durante as eleições (na quarta-feira da semana infotmática do IST). Penso que na altura o Louçâ deu o contacto ao Vasco, ou estou enganado? > Atencao: faca-se o que se fizer, temos de conseguir elucidar o governo, Sim 1º é preciso que o governo saiba do que falamos e que perca o medo. > em primeiro lugar, para os maleficios da EUCD e das patentes de > software. Mas sinceramente, tenho medo que o governo nao queira neste > momento fazer frente a Uniao Europiea... o que vai ser preciso ao nivel > das patentes de software e da EUCD. Sim de facto as patentes e a EUCD são a prioridade, mas as circunstâncias tambem começam a ser propicias a falar de Software Livre nas instituições públicas. Reduções de custos, aumentar a possibilidade de negocios na área para as empresas portuguêsas (aumentando assim o PIB), segurança e soberania da Republica, são alguns dos argumentos que a orientação ideiológica da coligação governamental, pode gostar. Fiquem bem! -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From rms arroba 1407.org Sat Apr 20 22:34:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 20 21:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1019334494.3033.23.camel@roque> --=-Rx2/g0p3eaBQIxNe1Xds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 22:06, Diogo Santos wrote: > > O Eng. (?) Diogo Vasconcelos nao ficou como ministro que afecte a nossa > > area. Conclusao, ficou com alguma secretaria de estado que nos afecte, > > ou sera melhor comecar-mos a tentar falar com o Sr. Ministro da Ciencia > > e Ensino Superior, Dr. (?) Pedro Lynce? > Acho que o ministro da ci=EAncia =E9 o Dr.(?) Manuel Fernandes Tomaz (CD= S/PP). Que, ja mudou? :) E que o Ministerio da Ciencia e Tecnologia transformou-se em Ministerio da Ciencia e Ensino Superior, e penso que e tutelado pelo Pedro Lynce. > > BE? Ficou de haver algum contacto, como e que estamos? Sem contacto? E > > preciso falar com urgencia com eles, pois foram os primeiros a > > introduzir o Software Livre na politica e a maneira como o fizeram nao > > foi decididamente a melhor. Alguem deve ter falado com eles, mas nao o > > fez da melhor maneira ou entao eles confudiram-se um bocado. > Acho que foi o Vasco Figueira que falou com o Francisco Lou=E7=E2, aquan= do da > sua visita ao IST durante as elei=E7=F5es (na quarta-feira da semana > infotm=E1tica do IST). Penso que na altura o Lou=E7=E2 deu o contacto ao = Vasco, > ou estou enganado? Acho que sim. Isto foi anterior a isso. Houve um debate com a participacao do Miguel Portas, e o que ele falou do software livre nao tem muito a ver com os nossos argumentos. > > Atencao: faca-se o que se fizer, temos de conseguir elucidar o governo, > Sim 1=BA =E9 preciso que o governo saiba do que falamos e que perca o me= do. >=20 >=20 > > em primeiro lugar, para os maleficios da EUCD e das patentes de > > software. Mas sinceramente, tenho medo que o governo nao queira neste > > momento fazer frente a Uniao Europiea... o que vai ser preciso ao nivel > > das patentes de software e da EUCD. >=20 > Sim de facto as patentes e a EUCD s=E3o a prioridade, mas as circunst=E2= ncias > tambem come=E7am a ser propicias a falar de Software Livre nas institui= =E7=F5es > p=FAblicas. Redu=E7=F5es de custos, aumentar a possibilidade de negocios = na =E1rea > para as empresas portugu=EAsas (aumentando assim o PIB), seguran=E7a e > soberania da Republica, s=E3o alguns dos argumentos que a orienta=E7=E3o > ideiol=F3gica da coliga=E7=E3o governamental, pode gostar. Concordo com ambas, mas para o resto temos tempo, e para as patentes e para a EUCD nao. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-Rx2/g0p3eaBQIxNe1Xds Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wc9eo+C50no0+t4RAhZ2AKCW8lhZaGSddnbba8BzXwX1XxMNEgCgijJa tj+NfvFhXldthGVgdIOnPm8= =4dUF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Rx2/g0p3eaBQIxNe1Xds-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sat Apr 20 22:53:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sat Apr 20 21:53:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> --=-Nrmaw32lHwrBY2df5y5o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On S=E1b, 2002-04-20 at 22:06, Diogo Santos wrote: >=20 > > O Eng. (?) Diogo Vasconcelos nao ficou como ministro que afecte a nossa > > area. Conclusao, ficou com alguma secretaria de estado que nos afecte, > > ou sera melhor comecar-mos a tentar falar com o Sr. Ministro da Ciencia > > e Ensino Superior, Dr. (?) Pedro Lynce? >=20 > Acho que o ministro da ci=EAncia =E9 o Dr.(?) Manuel Fernandes Tomaz (CD= S/PP). >=20 Esse =E9 o secret=E1rio de estado e a raz=E3o porque n=E3o devemos despreza= r o Diogo Vasconcelos. O Manuel Thomaz =E9 o presidente da ANJE de que, por coincid=EAncia :), o Diogo Vasconcelos =E9 vice-presidente. Da=ED que j=E1 tenhamos um bom contacto :). --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-Nrmaw32lHwrBY2df5y5o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wdPmGFkMfesLN9wRAmpjAKCGMkEjyyhUQzGQG+5FrOUcQE+lNwCff3nX +TrjugeYMvJqliVdKkLIt4s= =NKOK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nrmaw32lHwrBY2df5y5o-- From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 21 00:22:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sat Apr 20 23:22:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby In-Reply-To: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> References: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> Message-ID: <1019340953.3040.25.camel@roque> --=-LhtxfC0/ToEIFRSjHh+h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 21:47, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > Esse =E9 o secret=E1rio de estado e a raz=E3o porque n=E3o devemos despre= zar o > Diogo Vasconcelos. O Manuel Thomaz =E9 o presidente da ANJE de que, por > coincid=EAncia :), o Diogo Vasconcelos =E9 vice-presidente. Da=ED que j= =E1 > tenhamos um bom contacto :). Entao parece-me que esta na altura de escrever a todos estes nossos (e nao mandar email) a pedir uma audiencia, nao? Vamos comecar a discutir uma carta tipo para lhes mandar a pedir uma audiencia? Cumprimentos, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-LhtxfC0/ToEIFRSjHh+h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8weiZo+C50no0+t4RAut8AJ9szT42UzveSMeuJ6tSZ88wW2LzIQCgiVrh LYocHk6LnaijeJtkbgDsldI= =XTfu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-LhtxfC0/ToEIFRSjHh+h-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 21 00:24:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sat Apr 20 23:24:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico Message-ID: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Viva. Estive a ler hoje uma "breve" no expresso sobre um especialista em direit= o informatico, o Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha. Que possui ou trabalha para um escritorio de advogados especialistas em d= ireito informatico (pareceu-me). Penso que esta pessoa nos podera' dar uma ajuda na traducao do GPL para p= ortugues juridico ou entao podera' indicar-nos alguem que nos possa ajuda= r. Agora um aparte importantissimo!! Este sr. pertence 'a ASSFOT!... E' secretario da Direccao " Secret=E1rio Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha ( individual )" http://www.assoft.pt/assoft/corpos_sociais/corpos_sociais.htm No entanto uma entrevista na ZDNET: http://www.zdnet.pt/pcmagazine/0601/entrevista/tecnologias.shtml "=C9 considerado um dos experts em Portugal no que diz respeito ao direit= o cibern=E9tico. Manuel Lopes Rocha coordenou o "Guia Jur=EDdico da Inter= net em Portugal", publicado pelo Centro Atl=E2ntico h=E1 dois meses. Uma = obra que considera ser "mais um elemento de trabalho nesta nova =E1rea". = " No entanto nao temos nada a perder se pelo menos perguntar-mos o que e' q= ue ele acha e se conhece alguem que nos possa ajudar, se ele por cargos o= bvios nao puder ajudar... O que acham ?.. Alguns links para ajudar: http://www.centroatl.pt/ciberlei/index.html - Reparei que o Dr. Manuel Rocha escreveu com um "Mario Macedo"... http://www.cni.org/Hforums/cni-copyright/2001-01/0430.html Depois de vasculhar um pouco no google, encontrei: " A regulamenta=E7=E3o dos novos mercados globais. As quest=F5es da inexi= st=EAncia de fronteiras; o controlo de pre=E7os; os direitos de autor; a = privacidade e a confidencialidade. Manuel Lopes Rocha, Consultor Jur=EDdico, Barrocas & Alves Pereira, Advogados" http://www.hierosgamos.org/hg/db_lawfirms.asp?action=3Dpage2&pcomp=3D2223= 2&page=3D1&country=3DPortugal&SubCategory=3DGeneral|Practice Barrocas e Alves Pereira Amoreiras Torre 2 16th Floor Lisbon 1070-102 Portugal Contact: Mr. Jose Pereira Tel: (1) 793 8890 Fax: (1) 387 0265 Email: jalpereira@mail.telepac.pt A minha pergunta uma vez mais... Sera' que perdemos ao pedir ajuda e expl= icar o que e' a ANSOL ? ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From Diogo Santos Sun Apr 21 00:24:07 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Sat Apr 20 23:24:07 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby Message-ID: > > > BE? Ficou de haver algum contacto, como e que estamos? Sem contacto? E > > > preciso falar com urgencia com eles, pois foram os primeiros a > > > introduzir o Software Livre na politica e a maneira como o fizeram nao > > > foi decididamente a melhor. Alguem deve ter falado com eles, mas nao o > > > fez da melhor maneira ou entao eles confudiram-se um bocado. > > Acho que foi o Vasco Figueira que falou com o Francisco Louçâ, aquando da > > sua visita ao IST durante as eleições (na quarta-feira da semana > > infotmática do IST). Penso que na altura o Louçâ deu o contacto ao Vasco, > > ou estou enganado? > > Acho que sim. Isto foi anterior a isso. Houve um debate com a > participacao do Miguel Portas, e o que ele falou do software livre nao > tem muito a ver com os nossos argumentos. Eu estava lá no debate assentado ao teu lado e ainda me lembro das gafes, dos representandes dos partidos, esta de que falaste foi dizer ke a Apple produs Software Livre. Mas se o Miguel Portas tivér lido a defenição de Software Livre que eu lhe dei (yeh right! :/) pode ser que esteja mais elucidado. Fikem bem! Diogo Santos -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sun Apr 21 03:59:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sun Apr 21 02:59:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: Em Sábado, 20 de Abril de 2002 23:18, escreveste: > Viva. > > Estive a ler hoje uma "breve" no expresso sobre um especialista em direito > informatico, o Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha. Que possui ou trabalha para um > escritorio de advogados especialistas em direito informatico (pareceu-me). > > Penso que esta pessoa nos podera' dar uma ajuda na traducao do GPL para > portugues juridico ou entao podera' indicar-nos alguem que nos possa > ajudar. > > Agora um aparte importantissimo!! > Este sr. pertence 'a ASSFOT!... > > E' secretario da Direccao > " Secretário Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha ( individual )" > http://www.assoft.pt/assoft/corpos_sociais/corpos_sociais.htm > > No entanto uma entrevista na ZDNET: > http://www.zdnet.pt/pcmagazine/0601/entrevista/tecnologias.shtml > "É considerado um dos experts em Portugal no que diz respeito ao direito > cibernético. Manuel Lopes Rocha coordenou o "Guia Jurídico da Internet em > Portugal", publicado pelo Centro Atlântico há dois meses. Uma obra que > considera ser "mais um elemento de trabalho nesta nova área". " > > No entanto nao temos nada a perder se pelo menos perguntar-mos o que e' que > ele acha e se conhece alguem que nos possa ajudar, se ele por cargos obvios > nao puder ajudar... > > O que acham ?.. > > Alguns links para ajudar: > http://www.centroatl.pt/ciberlei/index.html > - Reparei que o Dr. Manuel Rocha escreveu com um "Mario Macedo"... > http://www.cni.org/Hforums/cni-copyright/2001-01/0430.html > > > Depois de vasculhar um pouco no google, encontrei: > " A regulamentação dos novos mercados globais. As questões da inexistência > de fronteiras; o controlo de preços; os direitos de autor; a privacidade e > a confidencialidade. Manuel Lopes Rocha, Consultor Jurídico, > Barrocas & Alves Pereira, Advogados" > > http://www.hierosgamos.org/hg/db_lawfirms.asp?action=page2&pcomp=22232&page >=1&country=Portugal&SubCategory=General|Practice > > Barrocas e Alves Pereira > > Amoreiras Torre 2 16th Floor > Lisbon 1070-102 > Portugal > > Contact: Mr. Jose Pereira > Tel: (1) 793 8890 > Fax: (1) 387 0265 > > Email: jalpereira@mail.telepac.pt > > > A minha pergunta uma vez mais... Sera' que perdemos ao pedir ajuda e > explicar o que e' a ANSOL ? > Pela deontologia da ordem, se nós pagarmos ou der o seu conselho não pode nos enganar ou manipular porque é logo sancionável pelas regras deontológicas e passível de espulsão da ordem. Ou seja, creio eu que perante um cliente de software proprietário ou um de software livre ele é obrigado pela ordem a defender o interesse do cliente. A questão é: paga-se ou não se paga... Pagando: Pela deontologia da ordem terá que nos defender da melhor maneira. Não pagando: Nós podemos-lhe dar publicidade e reputação. Neste momento ele poderá já ter essa necessidade satisfeita... Principalmente se ele considerar o recipiente dessa publicidade... Que neste caso será negativa.. pois os clientes dele são de software proprietário... Voltamos ao problema base: precisamos de empresas que lidem e façam MUITO dinheiro com o software livre ou com serviços ao software livre. (e que respeitem o GPL e outras licenças e as 4 liberdades do software) Se houver empresas na área e tenham crescimento acima da média e tenham no mercado uma imagem sólida e séria.. tudo é possível... até eliminar as patentes de software, poorque estaremos a atacar a questão dos dois lados do problema: do lado dos príncipios e do lado das necessidades. Mais coisas se poderiam dizer, mas estou cansado ás 3h00 da manhã :)... Um abraço, André Esteves From carl arroba localhost.localdomain Sun Apr 21 04:21:01 2002 From: carl arroba localhost.localdomain (=?iso-8859-15?q?Jo=E3o=20Fernandes?=) Date: Sun Apr 21 03:21:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Isto anda bonito... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Em Sexta, 19 de Abril de 2002 10:18, escreveste: > Caros membros da lista, > > Caso não tenham ainda visto o link no slashdot, vejam a análise que a eff > faz do chamado "patriot act": > > http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa >_patriot_analysis.html > > Já se têm receio de usar o google!! :) > > Esta lista anda morta, ou sou eu que estou com problemas de mail routing? > > Um abraço, > > André Esteves > > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral Bem , tem que se começar a pensar em quais são as proximas acções que a associação vai tomar , porque o tempo passa a correr ..... E que tal ir dar uma mãozinha nas Linux Installation Party ( or something like this) ou até organizar uma ... Pois ideias não me faltam , só que depois faze-las ..... :P Já é possivel realizar o pagamento das quotas?? From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 21 10:33:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 21 09:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1019377652.1495.0.camel@central> --=-FgfaJ/+yO4h+O9OWVx5q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On S=E1b, 2002-04-20 at 23:18, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Viva. >=20 > Estive a ler hoje uma "breve" no expresso sobre um especialista em direit= o informatico, o Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha. > Que possui ou trabalha para um escritorio de advogados especialistas em d= ireito informatico (pareceu-me). >=20 > Penso que esta pessoa nos podera' dar uma ajuda na traducao do GPL para p= ortugues juridico ou entao podera' indicar-nos alguem que nos possa ajudar. >=20 > Agora um aparte importantissimo!! > Este sr. pertence 'a ASSFOT!... >=20 E =E9 o advogado da Microsoft. Isto s=E3o raz=F5es para n=E3o me por =E0 vo= ntade a discutir certos assuntos com ele... --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-FgfaJ/+yO4h+O9OWVx5q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wnfzGFkMfesLN9wRApu+AJ4xxsgWZJsCghsUDOc1SmIQl2puMwCcCBaM ZiE5zBaYe9gST6XPHfTluGo= =ZUvi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FgfaJ/+yO4h+O9OWVx5q-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 21 12:04:02 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun Apr 21 11:04:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: <1019377652.1495.0.camel@central> References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1019377652.1495.0.camel@central> Message-ID: <20020421105904.0b1db1f8.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Se e' da MSFT entao deixamos de lado. O que e' mau, porque este sr. e' considerado "bom" em direito informatico= .... Existe (de acordo com a minha lista ;) ) mais dois advogados que se inter= essam ou tem conhecimentos de direito informatico. Um da faculdade do porto.. da' aulas de direito...=20 Outro que e' juiz em evora...=20 O ultimo parece-me mais aberto a uma possivel ajuda. Ele proprio ja efectuou uma serie de sites sobre advogacia em portugal. On 21 Apr 2002 09:27:31 +0100 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > On S=E1b, 2002-04-20 at 23:18, Vitor Domingos wrote: > > Viva. > >=20 > > Estive a ler hoje uma "breve" no expresso sobre um especialista em di= reito informatico, o Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha. > > Que possui ou trabalha para um escritorio de advogados especialistas = em direito informatico (pareceu-me). > >=20 > > Penso que esta pessoa nos podera' dar uma ajuda na traducao do GPL pa= ra portugues juridico ou entao podera' indicar-nos alguem que nos possa a= judar. > >=20 > > Agora um aparte importantissimo!! > > Este sr. pertence 'a ASSFOT!... > >=20 > E =E9 o advogado da Microsoft. Isto s=E3o raz=F5es para n=E3o me por =E0= vontade a > discutir certos assuntos com ele... > --=20 > Jo=E3o Miguel Neves >=20 ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Sun Apr 21 12:11:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Sun Apr 21 11:11:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <20020421110543.25cace58.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 02:54:47 +0100 Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Pela deontologia da ordem, se n=F3s pagarmos ou der o seu conselho n=E3= o pode nos=20 > enganar ou manipular porque =E9 logo sancion=E1vel pelas regras deontol= =F3gicas e=20 > pass=EDvel de espuls=E3o da ordem. Eu penso que nos nunca iremos, pelo menos a curto prazo, colocar a hipote= se de se "pagar", poderemos quanto mais pagarmos em "generos". >=20 > Ou seja, creio eu que perante um cliente de software propriet=E1rio ou = um de=20 > software livre ele =E9 obrigado pela ordem a defender o interesse do cl= iente. >=20 Como o joao neves referiu, sendo este sr. advogado da MSFT, nunca podemos= estar completamente 'a vontade...=20 > A quest=E3o =E9: paga-se ou n=E3o se paga... >=20 > Pagando: > Pela deontologia da ordem ter=E1 que nos defender da melhor maneira. >=20 > N=E3o pagando: > N=F3s podemos-lhe dar publicidade e reputa=E7=E3o. Neste momento ele po= der=E1 j=E1 ter=20 > essa necessidade satisfeita... Principalmente se ele considerar o recip= iente=20 > dessa publicidade... Que neste caso ser=E1 negativa.. pois os clientes = dele s=E3o=20 > de software propriet=E1rio... >=20 Bem, o mercado em portugal de advogados especialistas ou que se interesse= m por informatica esta' reduzido aos dedos de ... uma mao. Se formos pelo caso da publicidade, eles ao defenderem o software livre e= stao _sempre_ a deter uma imagem negativa perante clientes (e bem pagante= s) de software proprietario. Logo por ai estamos mal. A meu ver, teremos de contactar algum advogado que se _interesse_ pelo di= reito informatico, visto que todos os que exercem direito informatico, fa= zem disso a sua profissao e como e' obvio levam pelo seu trabalho. > Voltamos ao problema base: precisamos de empresas que lidem e fa=E7am M= UITO=20 > dinheiro com o software livre ou com servi=E7os ao software livre. > (e que respeitem o GPL e outras licen=E7as e as 4 liberdades do softwar= e) Em portugal nao existe! Conheco muitas pouquissimas empresas que facam do software livre sua "pro= fissao". E essas estao limitadas a nivel de orcamentos. >=20 > Se houver empresas na =E1rea e tenham crescimento acima da m=E9dia e te= nham no=20 > mercado uma imagem s=F3lida e s=E9ria.. tudo =E9 poss=EDvel... at=E9 el= iminar as=20 > patentes de software, poorque estaremos a atacar a quest=E3o dos dois l= ados do=20 > problema: do lado dos pr=EDncipios e do lado das necessidades. >=20 Tudo bem. E vamos esperar uns 20 anos por isso ? ;) ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From rms arroba 1407.org Sun Apr 21 13:09:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Sun Apr 21 12:09:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]lobby: mais argumentos In-Reply-To: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> References: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> Message-ID: <1019386954.3039.32.camel@roque> --=-9HILu5sLPZzYAOXCebzW Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O David Wheeler, que tive oportunidade de conhecer na F.SDEM em Fevereiro, actualizou o seu paper "Why Open Source Software / Free Software (OSS/FS)? Look at the Numbers!" http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html Foca-se sobretudo na perspectiva das vantagens tecnicas/economicas mas pode fornecer-nos numeros (e graficos) para levar em anexo para uma reuniao, nomeadamente para os partidos mais sensiveis nestes aspectos. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-9HILu5sLPZzYAOXCebzW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8wpxKo+C50no0+t4RAgRUAKDaktOzEcpLCJuuogw6TiUzYvjRZACfaW/0 kprIBn/OdzZuGrHQI9rWqv4= =YfeR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9HILu5sLPZzYAOXCebzW-- From Diogo Santos Sun Apr 21 16:30:02 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Sun Apr 21 15:30:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]acção Message-ID: Sim acho que podemos começar a tentar abordar estes senhores por carta, visto que a maioria das pessoas vê mais autoridade num documento em papel do que num documento em formato digital. O e-mail vai ser muito util para poder-mos acelerar o contacto, mas até termos um contacto firme proponho que se utilize meios mais "tradicionais". Quanto à carta, acho que devemos começar. Como? Manifestamos já a nossa opnião quanto às iniciativas legislativas que se aproximam, explicando porke é ke os argumentos, utilizados pelos apoiantes dessas leis, são falaciosos, aproveitando a deixa começar com o discurso mais educativo? João Fernandes disse: «E que tal ir dar uma mãozinha nas Linux Installation Party ( or something like this) ou até organizar uma...» Mais facil do que organizar uma é entrar em contacto com a organização das outras para que possamos, distribuir uns panfletos (com defenições de Software Livre, razões para usar Software Livre e com desmistificações em relação ao Software Livre) e talvês mesmo uma pequena palestra e claro dar uma ajudinha na LIP. Já agora vai dando a axega para os profs da nossa escola para a semana informática. «Pois ideias não me faltam , só que depois faze-las..... :P» Então podes começar por apresentar as ideias. :) Já agora por falar em panfletos, que tal começar o draft de um?? Penso tambem, que se poderia criar uma task force para centralizar as tarefas anteriores a participações em eventos (mapas, impressão de panfletos ou outros documentos, divulgação, venda de merchandising, e outras tarefas logisticas), mas que não sejam necesáriamente oradores (se forem tanto melhor), até porque nem todos temos esse dom (eu por exemplo exalto-me com alguma facilidade). Já agora convem que esse grupo de trabalho esteja algo distribuido pelo país. A existência deste grupo evitava a necessidade de arranjar voluntários para ter estas preocupações logisticas, cada vês que fosse realizado um evento que a ANSOL organize, ou que no qual participe, ficando as preocupações só no nível de quem seria(m) o(s) oradore(s), isto caso houvesse orador. Fiquem bem! Diogo Santos -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From figueira arroba europe.com Mon Apr 22 06:02:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 05:02:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]loby In-Reply-To: <1019340953.3040.25.camel@roque> References: <1019335654.469.4.camel@central> <1019340953.3040.25.camel@roque> Message-ID: <1019447694.719.35.camel@jung> Viva, On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 23:15, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 21:47, Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > > Esse =E9 o secret=E1rio de estado e a raz=E3o porque n=E3o devemos desp= rezar o > > Diogo Vasconcelos. O Manuel Thomaz =E9 o presidente da ANJE de que, por > > coincid=EAncia :), o Diogo Vasconcelos =E9 vice-presidente. Da=ED que j= =E1 > > tenhamos um bom contacto :). >=20 > Entao parece-me que esta na altura de escrever a todos estes nossos (e > nao mandar email) a pedir uma audiencia, nao? >=20 > Vamos comecar a discutir uma carta tipo para lhes mandar a pedir uma > audiencia? ( ... dej=E1 vu... ) Meus amigos, n=E3o vale a pena mandarmos mais cartinhas a pedir audi=EAncia= s ou coisa que as valha. Isso j=E1 foi feito, tirando o senhor Ministro (por muito que a ci=EAncia e ensino superior tenham directamente a ver com SL) e o senhor do PCP. CDS/PP n=E3o cheg=E1mos a ter nenhum contacto. O processo neste momento estagnou *pura e simplesmente* por falta de documenta=E7=E3o nossa criada. Neste momento estamos apenas =E0 espera que = os dossiers fiquem prontos para que - ent=E3o sim - que possamos preparar toda as reuni=F5es que j=E1 est=E3o apalavradas. O BE est=E1 =E0 espera disso, bem como o Diogo Vasconcelos. S=F3 faltam os dossiers. Mais nada. Ok? Patentes? Como =E9? Quanto tempo? EUCD, Jo=E3o, quando =E9 que despachas isso? Vasco, o teu dossier est=E1 quase, n=E3o =E9? Hum?! Mais algu=E9m quer trabalho? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From hnogueira arroba april.org Mon Apr 22 12:12:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 11:12:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Em Espanha, a regiao da Extremadura adopta Software Livre !! In-Reply-To: <1018877733.1394.42.camel@roque> References: <1018563552.1373.21.camel@roque> <3CB1CD500015108C@mail.libertysurf.net> <1018877733.1394.42.camel@roque> Message-ID: <3CC082B00006C4F5@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Nestes tempos escuros (sobretudo em Fran=E7a), ainda h=E0 boas noticias : O projecto "Linex" baseado na Debian GNU/Linux =E9 adoptado na regiao de = Extremadura. Os links : http://fr.news.yahoo.com/020419/166/2k1ct.html http://www.elmundo.es/ariadna/2002/89/1019114721.html http://www.linex.org/ :-) From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 22 15:38:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 22 14:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Extremadura Measures: Linux Message-ID: <1019482344.7503.14.camel@roque> --=-u6VYMQ4IkaJm3/4Kj4gs Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,51994,00.html Governments in developing regions worldwide have eagerly embraced the open-source movement as a way to trim fat from their budgets. But free software initiatives fail when officials believe they will no longer have to invest in their IT systems. Take the case of Mexico's Red Escolar , launched in 1998 to install Linux in the country's 126,000 public schools. The government simply shipped CDs to schools without training teachers how to use the operating system or contracting programmers to administer it. That won't happen in Extremadura, Vazquez de Miguel said. "The decision to incorporate (Linux) is not an isolated decision, nor is it limited to handing out software," the minister said, adding that training Extremadura's 15,000 teachers to use the system and to incorporate the computers in the classroom has been a government priority.=20 Lindo! --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-u6VYMQ4IkaJm3/4Kj4gs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xBDoo+C50no0+t4RAmJaAJ9wli9yK6wyHqoxyP4a0XK369qyTQCglF97 yy85xVzv2i8m/kGtQfxSm9k= =NxSK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-u6VYMQ4IkaJm3/4Kj4gs-- From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 22 18:34:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 22 17:34:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Decreto-Lei relativo a assinatura digital Message-ID: <1019492885.7504.45.camel@roque> --=-VkbuSjy1LySSoEIUSq7D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gostava de chamar a atencao para este decreto de lei. Ainda nao o li todo, mas precisa de uma revisao +- URGENTE pois esta a por = o poder=20 das assinaturas digitais somente em autoridades de certificacao. Estas sao empresas comerciais que validam a autenticidade de uma pessoa nor= malmente durante um ano. Ou seja, existe este decreto de lei que, IMNSHO, foi feito para dar dinheir= o a privados, como eu temia. Cumprimentos, rms Decreto-Lei N=BA 290-D/99 DECRETO-LEI RELATIVO =C0 ASSINATURA DIGITAL A Resolu=E7=E3o do Conselho de Ministros n=BA. 115/98, de 1 de Setembro, de= terminou a defini=E7=E3o do regime jur=EDdico aplic=E1vel aos documentos el= ectr=F3nicos e assinatura digital, como um dos objectivos a alcan=E7ar no = =E2mbito da Iniciativa Nacional para o Com=E9rcio Electr=F3nico, necess=E1r= io =E0 plena afirma=E7=E3o do com=E9rcio electr=F3nico. As redes electr=F3nicas abertas, como a Internet, t=EAm assumido uma import= =E2ncia crescente na vida quotidiana dos cidad=E3os e dos agentes econ=F3mi= cos, proporcionando uma teia de rela=E7=F5es comerciais globais. Para aprov= eitar da melhor forma estas oportunidades, urge criar um ambiente seguro pa= ra a autentica=E7=E3o electr=F3nica. Na realidade, as comunica=E7=F5es e o = com=E9rcio electr=F3nicos exigem assinaturas electr=F3nicas e servi=E7os a = elas associados que permitam a autentica=E7=E3o electr=F3nica dos dados. As assinaturas electr=F3nicas possibilitam ao utente de dados enviados elec= tronicamente que verifique a sua origem (autentica=E7=E3o), bem como se os = dados foram entretanto alterados (integridade). Em mat=E9ria de assinatura = electr=F3nica, o presente diploma assenta no modelo tecnol=F3gico ora preva= lecente: a assinatura digital produzida atrav=E9s de t=E9cnicas criptogr=E1= ficas. Como se depreende dos estudos dispon=EDveis sobre tecnologias de ass= inaturas digitais baseadas na criptografia de chaves p=FAblicas, a assinatu= ra digital constitui, neste momento, a t=E9cnica mais reconhecida de assina= tura electr=F3nica, apresentando o mais elevado grau de seguran=E7a para as= trocas de dados em redes abertas. E =E9 esta constata=E7=E3o do estado da = tecnologia que tem levado as experi=EAncias legislativas estrangeiras a pri= vilegiar esta forma de assinatura electr=F3nica. Contudo, e considerando que em face do constante desenvolvimento tecnol=F3g= ico esta solu=E7=E3o de autentica=E7=E3o de dados pode ser, em pouco tempo,= tecnicamente ultrapassada pela afirma=E7=E3o de outras formas de assinatur= a electr=F3nica, o regime previsto no presente diploma poder=E1 vir a ser a= plicado a outras modalidades de assinatura electr=F3nica que satisfa=E7am o= s requisitos de seguran=E7a da assinatura digital. A verifica=E7=E3o da autenticidade e da integridade dos dados, facultada pe= las assinaturas electr=F3nicas, em geral, e pela assinatura digital, em par= ticular, n=E3o prova necessariamente a identidade do signat=E1rio que cria = as assinaturas electr=F3nicas. Assim, considera-se necess=E1rio, de acordo = com a pr=E1tica tecnicamente recomendada e internacionalmente consagrada, i= nstituir um sistema de confirma=E7=E3o por entidades certificadoras, =E0s q= uais incumbe assegurar os elevados n=EDveis de seguran=E7a do sistema indis= pens=E1veis para a cria=E7=E3o da desejada confian=E7a no tocante =E0s assi= naturas de documentos electr=F3nicos. Neste contexto, o presente diploma, por um lado, regula o reconhecimento e = o valor jur=EDdico dos documentos electr=F3nicos e das assinaturas digitais= e, por outro lado, confia o controle da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o de = assinaturas a uma entidade a designar, e define os poderes e procedimentos = desta, bem como as condi=E7=F5es de credencia=E7=E3o da actividade e os dir= eitos e os deveres das entidades certificadoras. Esta actividade de certifica=E7=E3o de assinaturas digitais, de harmonia co= m a orienta=E7=E3o consagrada j=E1 noutros pa=EDses da Uni=E3o Europeia n= =E3o est=E1 sujeita a autoriza=E7=E3o administrativa pr=E9via. Importa, por= =E9m, que o Estado providencie um controle das condi=E7=F5es de idoneidade = e seguran=E7a asseguradas pelas entidades certificadoras, e desse modo ofer= e=E7a ao p=FAblico e ao mercado a orienta=E7=E3o e a garantia de qualidade = que s=E3o indispens=E1veis para a confian=E7a nos novos meios de documenta= =E7=E3o e assinatura. De harmonia com este desiderato, prev=EA-se um sistem= a volunt=E1rio de credencia=E7=E3o e fiscaliza=E7=E3o das entidades certifi= cadoras pela autoridade competente. Com este diploma d=E1-se, em Portugal, o primeiro passo no sentido da consa= gra=E7=E3o legal das assinaturas electr=F3nicas acolhendo-se, designadament= e, as solu=E7=F5es avan=E7adas no quadro da Uni=E3o Europeia, na proposta d= e Directiva do Parlamento Europeu e do Conselho, relativa a um quadro legal= comunit=E1rio para as assinaturas electr=F3nicas. A evolu=E7=E3o tecnol=F3= gica, que nesta mat=E9ria =E9 constante, determinar=E1 a m=E9dio prazo a re= vis=E3o, adapta=E7=E3o e aprofundamento do regime estabelecido no presente = diploma. Nos termos da al=EDnea a) do n=BA. 1 do artigo 198=BA. da Constitui=E7=E3o = o Governo decreta para valer como lei geral da Rep=FAblica o seguinte: Cap=EDtulo I Documentos e actos jur=EDdicos electr=F3nicos Artigo 1.=BA (Objecto) 1.O presente diploma regula a validade, efic=E1cia e valor probat=F3rio dos= documentos electr=F3nicos e a assinatura digital. 2.O regime previsto no presente diploma pode ser tornado aplic=E1vel a outr= as modalidades de assinatura electr=F3nica que satisfa=E7am exig=EAncias de= seguran=E7a id=EAnticas =E0s da assinatura digital. Artigo 2.=BA (Defini=E7=F5es) Para os fins do presente diploma, entende-se por:=20 a) Documento electr=F3nico: documento elaborado mediante processamento elec= tr=F3nico de dados; b) Assinatura electr=F3nica: resultado de um processamento electr=F3nico de= dados suscept=EDvel de constituir objecto de direito individual e exclusiv= o e de ser utilizado para dar a conhecer a autoria de um documento electr= =F3nico ao qual seja aposta, de modo que:=20 i. Identifique de forma un=EDvoca o titular como autor do documento; ii. A sua aposi=E7=E3o ao documento dependa apenas da vontade do titular; iii. A sua conex=E3o com o documento permita detectar toda e qualquer alter= a=E7=E3o superveniente do conte=FAdo deste; c) Assinatura digital: processo de assinatura electr=F3nica baseado em sist= ema criptogr=E1fico assim=E9trico composto de um algoritmo ou s=E9rie de al= goritmos, mediante o qual =E9 gerado um par de chaves assim=E9tricas exclus= ivas e interdependentes, uma das quais privada e outra p=FAblica, e que per= mite ao titular usar a chave privada para declarar a autoria do documento e= lectr=F3nico ao qual a assinatura =E9 aposta e concord=E2ncia com o seu con= te=FAdo, e ao declarat=E1rio usar a chave p=FAblica para verificar se a ass= inatura foi criada mediante o uso da correspondente chave privada e se o do= cumento electr=F3nico foi alterado depois de aposta a assinatura; d) Chave privada: elemento do par de chaves assim=E9tricas destinado a ser = conhecido apenas pelo seu titular, mediante o qual se ap=F5e a assinatura d= igital no documento electr=F3nico, ou se decifra um documento electr=F3nico= previamente cifrado com a correspondente chave p=FAblica; e) Chave p=FAblica: elemento do par de chaves assim=E9tricas destinado a se= r divulgado, com o qual se verifica a assinatura digital aposta no document= o electr=F3nico pelo titular do par de chaves assim=E9tricas, ou se cifra u= m documento electr=F3nico a transmitir ao titular do mesmo par de chaves; f ) Credencia=E7=E3o: Acto pelo qual =E9 reconhecido a uma entidade que o s= olicite e que exer=E7a actividade de entidade certificadora referida na al= =EDnea h) deste artigo o preenchimento dos requisitos definidos no presente= diploma para os efeitos nele previstos. g) Autoridade credenciadora: Entidade competente para a credencia=E7=E3o e = fiscaliza=E7=E3o das entidades ceritificadoras h) Entidade certificadora: entidade ou pessoa singular ou colectiva credenc= iada que cria ou fornece meios para a cria=E7=E3o das chaves, emite os cert= ificados de assinatura, assegura a respectiva publicidade e presta outros s= ervi=E7os relativos a assinaturas digitais; i) Certificado de assinatura: documento electr=F3nico autenticado com assin= atura digital e que certifique a titularidade de uma chave p=FAblica e o pr= azo de validade da mesma chave; j) Valida=E7=E3o cronol=F3gica: declara=E7=E3o de entidade certificadora qu= e atesta a data e hora da cria=E7=E3o, expedi=E7=E3o ou recep=E7=E3o de um = documento electr=F3nico; l) Endere=E7o electr=F3nico: identifica=E7=E3o de um equipamento inform=E1t= ico adequado para receber e arquivar documentos electr=F3nicos; Artigo 3=BA (Forma e for=E7a probat=F3ria) 1. O documento electr=F3nico satisfaz o requisito legal de forma escrita qu= ando o seu conte=FAdo seja suscept=EDvel de representa=E7=E3o como declara= =E7=E3o escrita. 2. Quando lhe seja aposta uma assinatura digital certificada por uma entida= de credenciada e com os requisitos previstos neste diploma, o documento ele= ctr=F3nico com o conte=FAdo referido no n=FAmero anterior tem a for=E7a pro= bat=F3ria de documento particular assinado, nos termos do artigo 376=BA do = C=F3digo Civil. 3. Quando lhe seja aposta uma assinatura digital certificada por uma entida= de credenciada e com os requisitos previstos neste diploma, o documento ele= ctr=F3nico cujo conte=FAdo n=E3o seja suscept=EDvel de representa=E7=E3o co= mo declara=E7=E3o escrita tem a for=E7a probat=F3ria prevista no artigo 368= =BA do C=F3digo Civil e no artigo 167=BA do C=F3digo de Processo Penal. 4. O disposto nos n=FAmeros anteriores n=E3o obsta =E0 utiliza=E7=E3o de ou= tro meio de comprova=E7=E3o da autoria e integridade de documentos electr= =F3nicos, incluindo a assinatura electr=F3nica n=E3o conforme com os requis= itos do presente diploma, desde que tal meio seja adoptado pelas partes ao = abrigo de v=E1lida conven=E7=E3o sobre prova ou seja aceite pela pessoa a q= uem for oposto o documento. 5. O valor probat=F3rio dos documentos electr=F3nicos aos quais n=E3o seja = aposta uma assinatura digital certificada por uma entidade credenciada e co= m os requisitos previstos neste diploma =E9 apreciado nos termos gerais de = direito. Artigo 4=BA (C=F3pias de documentos) As c=F3pias de documentos electr=F3nicos, sobre id=EAntico ou diferente tip= o de suporte, s=E3o v=E1lidas e eficazes nos termos gerais de direito e t= =EAm a for=E7a probat=F3ria atribu=EDda =E0s c=F3pias fotogr=E1ficas pelo n= =BA 2 do artigo 387=BA do C=F3digo Civil e pelo artigo 168=BA do C=F3digo d= e Processo Penal, se forem observados os requisitos a=ED previstos. Artigo 5=BA (Documentos electr=F3nicos dos organismos p=FAblicos) 1. Os organismos p=FAblicos podem emitir documentos electr=F3nicos com assi= natura digital aposta em conformidade com as normas do presente diploma. 2. Nas opera=E7=F5es relativas =E0 cria=E7=E3o, emiss=E3o, arquivo, reprodu= =E7=E3o, c=F3pia e transmiss=E3o de documentos electr=F3nicos que formalize= m actos administrativos atrav=E9s de sistemas inform=E1ticos, incluindo a s= ua transmiss=E3o por meios de telecomunica=E7=F5es, os dados relativos ao o= rganismo interessado e =E0 pessoa que tenha praticado cada acto administrat= ivo devem ser indicados de forma a torn=E1-los facilmente identific=E1veis = e a comprovar a fun=E7=E3o ou cargo desempenhado pela pessoa signat=E1ria d= e cada documento. Artigo 6.=BA (Comunica=E7=E3o de documentos electr=F3nicos) 1. O documento electr=F3nico comunicado por um meio de telecomunica=E7=F5es= considera-se enviado e recebido pelo destinat=E1rio se for transmitido par= a o endere=E7o electr=F3nico definido por acordo das partes e neste for rec= ebido. 2. S=E3o opon=EDveis entre as partes e a terceiros a data e a hora da cria= =E7=E3o, da expedi=E7=E3o ou da recep=E7=E3o de um documento electr=F3nico = que contenha uma valida=E7=E3o cronol=F3gica emitida por uma entidade certi= ficadora. 3. A comunica=E7=E3o do documento electr=F3nico, assinado de acordo com os = requisitos do presente diploma, por meio de telecomunica=E7=F5es que assegu= re a efectiva recep=E7=E3o equivale =E0 remessa por via postal registada e,= se a recep=E7=E3o for comprovada por mensagem de confirma=E7=E3o dirigida = ao remetente pelo destinat=E1rio com assinatura digital e recebida pelo rem= etente equivale =E0 remessa por via postal registada com aviso de recep=E7= =E3o. 4. Os dados e documentos comunicados por meio de telecomunica=E7=F5es consi= deram-se em poder do remetente at=E9 =E0 recep=E7=E3o pelo destinat=E1rio. 5. Os operadores que assegurem a comunica=E7=E3o de documentos electr=F3nic= os por meio de telecomunica=E7=F5es n=E3o podem tomar conhecimento do seu c= onte=FAdo, nem duplic=E1-los por qualquer meio ou ceder a terceiros qualque= r informa=E7=E3o, ainda que resumida ou por extracto, sobre a exist=EAncia = ou sobre o conte=FAdo desses documentos, salvo quando se trate de informa= =E7=E3o que, pela sua natureza ou por indica=E7=E3o expressa do seu remeten= te, se destine a ser tornada p=FAblica. Cap=EDtulo II Assinaturas digitais Artigo 7.=BA (Assinatura digital) 1. A aposi=E7=E3o de uma assinatura digital a um documento electr=F3nico ou= a uma c=F3pia deste equivale =E0 assinatura aut=F3grafa dos documentos com= forma escrita sobre suporte de papel e cria a presun=E7=E3o de que:=20 a) a pessoa que ap=F4s a assinatura digital =E9 o titular desta ou =E9 repr= esentante, com poderes bastantes, da pessoa colectiva titular da assinatura= digital; b) a assinatura digital foi aposta com a inten=E7=E3o de assinar o document= o electr=F3nico; c) o documento electr=F3nico n=E3o sofreu altera=E7=E3o desde que lhe foi a= posta a assinatura digital, sempre que seja utilizada para verifica=E7=E3o = uma chave p=FAblica contida em certificado v=E1lido emitido por entidade ce= rtificadora credenciada nos termos deste diploma. 2. A assinatura digital deve referir-se inequivocamente a uma s=F3 pessoa s= ingular ou colectiva e ao documento ao qual =E9 aposta. 3. A aposi=E7=E3o de assinatura digital substitui, para todos os efeitos le= gais, a aposi=E7=E3o de selos, carimbos, marcas ou outros sinais identifica= dores do seu titular. 4. Para a aposi=E7=E3o de assinatura digital deve utilizar-se uma chave pri= vada cuja correspondente chave p=FAblica conste de certificado v=E1lido, em= itido por entidade certificadora credenciada nos termos deste diploma, e qu= e, na data da aposi=E7=E3o da assinatura digital, n=E3o se encontre suspens= o ou revogado por decis=E3o da entidade certificadora, e cujo prazo de vali= dade n=E3o tenha terminado. 5. A aposi=E7=E3o de assinatura digital cuja chave p=FAblica conste de cert= ificado que esteja revogado, caduco ou suspenso, na data da aposi=E7=E3o ou= n=E3o respeite as condi=E7=F5es dele constantes, equivale =E0 falta de ass= inatura. Artigo 8.=BA (Obten=E7=E3o das chaves e certificado) Quem pretenda utilizar uma assinatura digital para os fins deste diploma de= ve, nos termos do n=BA 1 do artigo 29.=BA, criar ou obter a emiss=E3o de um= par de chaves assim=E9tricas, bem como obter o certificado da respectiva c= have p=FAblica emitido por entidade certificadora credenciada nos termos de= ste diploma. Cap=EDtulo III Certifica=E7=E3o Sec=E7=E3o I Acesso =E0 actividade de certifica=E7=E3o=20 Artigo 9=BA (Livre acesso =E0 actividade de certifica=E7=E3o) =C9 livre o exerc=EDcio da actividade de entidade certificadora referida na= al=EDnea h) do artigo 2=BA, sendo facultativa a solicita=E7=E3o da credenc= ia=E7=E3o regulada nos artigos 11=BA e seguintes. Artigo 10.=BA (Livre escolha da entidade certificadora) 1. =C9 livre a escolha da entidade certificadora. 2. A escolha de entidade determinada n=E3o pode constituir condi=E7=E3o de = oferta ou de celebra=E7=E3o de qualquer neg=F3cio jur=EDdico. Artigo 11=BA (Entidade competente para a credencia=E7=E3o) A credencia=E7=E3o de entidades certificadoras para efeitos do presente dip= loma compete =E0 entidade, a designar nos termos do artigo 40=BA, adiante d= esignado autoridade credenciadora. Artigo 12.=BA (Credencia=E7=E3o da entidade certificadora) Ser=E1 concedida a credencia=E7=E3o de entidades certificadoras de assinatu= ras digitais, mediante pedido apresentado =E0 autoridade credenciadora, a e= ntidades que satisfa=E7am os seguintes requisitos:=20 a) Estejam dotadas de capital e meios financeiros adequados; b) D=EAem garantias de absoluta integridade e independ=EAncia no exerc=EDci= o da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o de assinaturas digitais;=20 c) Disponham de recursos t=E9cnicos e humanos que satisfa=E7am os padr=F5es= de seguran=E7a e de efic=E1cia que sejam previstos na regulamenta=E7=E3o a= que se refere o artigo 38=BA; d) Mantenham contrato de seguro v=E1lido para cobertura adequada da respons= abilidade civil emergente da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o. Artigo 13=BA (Pedido de credencia=E7=E3o) 1. O pedido de credencia=E7=E3o de entidade certificadora de assinaturas di= gitais ser=E1 instru=EDdo com os seguintes documentos:=20 a) Estatutos da pessoa colectiva e, tratando-se de sociedade, contrato de s= ociedade ou, tratando-se de pessoa singular, a respectiva identifica=E7=E3o= e domic=EDlio; b) Tratando-se de sociedade, rela=E7=E3o de todos os s=F3cios, com especifi= ca=E7=E3o das respectivas participa=E7=F5es, bem como dos membros dos =F3rg= =E3os de administra=E7=E3o e de fiscaliza=E7=E3o, e, tratando-se de socieda= de an=F3nima, rela=E7=E3o de todos os accionistas com participa=E7=F5es sig= nificativas, directas ou indirectas; c) Declara=E7=F5es subscritas por todas as pessoas singulares e colectivas = referidas no n=BA 1 do artigo 15=BA de que n=E3o se encontram em nenhuma da= s situa=E7=F5es indiciadoras de inidoneidade referidas no respectivo n.=BA = 2. d) Prova do substrato patrimonial e dos meios financeiros dispon=EDveis, e = designadamente, tratando-se de sociedade, da realiza=E7=E3o integral do cap= ital social; e) Descri=E7=E3o da organiza=E7=E3o interna e plano de seguran=E7a; f) Descri=E7=E3o dos recursos materiais e t=E9cnicos dispon=EDveis, incluin= do caracter=EDsticas e localiza=E7=E3o de todos os im=F3veis utilizados; g) Designa=E7=E3o do auditor de seguran=E7a; h) Programa geral da actividade prevista para os primeiros tr=EAs anos; i) Descri=E7=E3o geral das actividades exercidas nos =FAltimos tr=EAs anos = ou no tempo decorrido desde a constitui=E7=E3o, se for inferior, e balan=E7= o e contas dos exerc=EDcios correspondentes; j) Comprova=E7=E3o de contrato de seguro v=E1lido para cobertura adequada d= a responsabilidade civil emergente da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o. 2. Se =E0 data do pedido a pessoa colectiva n=E3o estiver constitu=EDda, o = pedido ser=E1 instru=EDdo, em substitui=E7=E3o do previsto na al=EDnea a) d= o n=FAmero anterior, com os seguintes documentos:=20 a) Acta da reuni=E3o em que foi deliberada a constitui=E7=E3o; b) Projecto de estatutos ou contrato de sociedade; c) Declara=E7=E3o de compromisso, subscrita por todos os fundadores, de que= no acto de constitui=E7=E3o, e como condi=E7=E3o dela, estar=E1 integralme= nte realizado o substrato patrimonial exigido por lei.=20 3. As declara=E7=F5es previstas na al=EDnea c) do n=BA 1, poder=E3o ser ent= regues em momento posterior ao pedido, nos termos e prazo que a autoridade = credenciadora fixar. 4. Consideram-se como participa=E7=F5es significativas, para os efeitos do = presente diploma, as que igualem ou excedam dez por cento do capital da soc= iedade an=F3nima. Artigo 14.=BA (Requisitos patrimoniais) 1. As entidades certificadoras privadas, que sejam pessoas jur=EDdicas, dev= em estar dotadas de capital social no valor m=EDnimo de Esc. 40.000.000$00,= ou, n=E3o sendo sociedades, do substrato patrimonial equivalente. 2. O substrato patrimonial, e designadamente o capital social m=EDnimo de s= ociedade, encontrar-se-=E1 sempre integralmente realizado =E0 data da crede= ncia=E7=E3o, se a pessoa colectiva estiver j=E1 constitu=EDda, ou ser=E1 se= mpre integralmente realizado com a constitui=E7=E3o da pessoa colectiva, se= esta ocorrer posteriormente. 3. As entidades certificadoras que sejam pessoas singulares devem ter e man= ter durante toda a sua actividade um patrim=F3nio, livre de quaisquer =F3nu= s, de valor equivalente ao previsto no n=BA 1. Artigo 15.=BA (Requisitos de idoneidade) 1. A pessoa singular e, no caso de pessoa colectiva, os membros dos =F3rg= =E3os de administra=E7=E3o e fiscaliza=E7=E3o, os empregados, comitidos e r= epresentantes das entidades certificadoras com acesso aos actos e instrumen= tos de certifica=E7=E3o, os s=F3cios da sociedade e, tratando-se de socieda= de an=F3nima, os accionistas com participa=E7=F5es significativas ser=E3o s= empre pessoas de reconhecida idoneidade. 2. Entre outras circunst=E2ncias atend=EDveis, considera-se indiciador de f= alta de idoneidade o facto de a pessoa ter sido:=20 a) Condenada, no pa=EDs ou no estrangeiro, por crime de furto, roubo, burla= , burla inform=E1tica e nas comunica=E7=F5es, extors=E3o, abuso de confian= =E7a, infidelidade, falsifica=E7=E3o, falsas declara=E7=F5es, insolv=EAncia= dolosa, insolv=EAncia negligente, favorecimento de credores, emiss=E3o de = cheques sem provis=E3o, abuso de cart=E3o de garantia ou de cr=E9dito, apro= pria=E7=E3o ileg=EDtima de bens do sector p=FAblico ou cooperativo, adminis= tra=E7=E3o danosa em unidade econ=F3mica do sector p=FAblico ou cooperativo= , usura, suborno, corrup=E7=E3o, recep=E7=E3o n=E3o autorizada de dep=F3sit= os ou outros fundos reembols=E1veis, pr=E1tica il=EDcita de actos ou opera= =E7=F5es inerentes =E0 actividade seguradora ou dos fundos de pens=F5es, br= anqueamento de capitais, abuso de informa=E7=E3o, manipula=E7=E3o do mercad= o de valores mobili=E1rios ou crime previsto no C=F3digo das Sociedades Com= erciais; b) Declarada, por senten=E7a nacional ou estrangeira, falida ou insolvente = ou julgada respons=E1vel por fal=EAncia ou insolv=EAncia de empresa por ela= dominada ou de cujos =F3rg=E3os de administra=E7=E3o ou fiscaliza=E7=E3o t= enha sido membro; c) Sujeita a san=E7=F5es, no Pa=EDs ou no estrangeiro, pela pr=E1tica de in= frac=E7=F5es =E0s normas legais ou regulamentares que regem as actividades = de produ=E7=E3o, autentica=E7=E3o, registo e conserva=E7=E3o de documentos,= e designadamente as do notariado, dos registos p=FAblicos, do funcionalism= o judicial, das bibliotecas p=FAblicas, e da certifica=E7=E3o de assinatura= s digitais.=20 4. A falta dos requisitos de idoneidade previstos no presente artigo consti= tui fundamento de recusa e de revoga=E7=E3o da credencia=E7=E3o, nos termos= da al=EDnea c) do n=BA 1 do artigo 19.=BA e da al=EDnea f) do n=BA 1 do ar= tigo 21=BA. Artigo 16.=BA (Auditor de seguran=E7a ) 1. Todas as entidades certificadoras ter=E3o um auditor de seguran=E7a, pes= soa singular ou colectiva, o qual elaborar=E1 um relat=F3rio anual de segur= an=E7a e o enviar=E1 =E0 autoridade credenciadora, at=E9 31 de Mar=E7o de c= ada ano civil. 2. A designa=E7=E3o do auditor de seguran=E7a ser=E1 sujeita a aprova=E7=E3= o pr=E9via pela autoridade credenciadora. Artigo 17.=BA (Seguro obrigat=F3rio de responsabilidade civil) O Ministro das Finan=E7as definir=E1, por portaria, as caracter=EDsticas do= contrato de seguro de responsabilidade civil a que se refere a al=EDnea d)= do artigo12.=BA Artigo 18.=BA (Decis=E3o) 1. A autoridade credenciadora poder=E1 solicitar dos requerentes informa=E7= =F5es complementares e proceder, por si ou por quem para o efeito designar,= =E0s averigua=E7=F5es, inquiri=E7=F5es e inspec=E7=F5es que entenda necess= =E1rias para a aprecia=E7=E3o do pedido. 2. A decis=E3o sobre o pedido de credencia=E7=E3o deve ser notificada aos i= nteressados no prazo de tr=EAs meses a contar da recep=E7=E3o do pedido ou,= se for o caso, a contar da recep=E7=E3o das informa=E7=F5es complementares= solicitadas ou da conclus=E3o das dilig=EAncias que entenda necess=E1rias,= n=E3o podendo no entanto exceder o prazo de seis meses sobre a data da rec= ep=E7=E3o daquele. 3. A falta de notifica=E7=E3o nos prazos referidos no n=FAmero anterior con= stitui presun=E7=E3o de indeferimento t=E1cito do pedido.=20 4. A autoridade credenciadora poder=E1 incluir na credencia=E7=E3o condi=E7= =F5es adicionais desde que necess=E1rias para assegurar o cumprimento das d= isposi=E7=F5es legais e regulamentares aplic=E1veis ao exerc=EDcio da activ= idade pela entidade certificadora. 5. A emiss=E3o da credencia=E7=E3o ser=E1 acompanhada da emiss=E3o pela aut= oridade credenciadora do certificado das chaves a ser usado pela entidade c= ertificadora na emiss=E3o de certificados. 6. A decis=E3o de credencia=E7=E3o ser=E1 comunicada =E0s autoridades fisca= lizadoras dos Estados-Membros da Uni=E3o Europeia. Artigo 19.=BA (Recusa de credencia=E7=E3o) 1. A credencia=E7=E3o ser=E1 recusada sempre que:=20 a) O pedido de credencia=E7=E3o n=E3o estiver instru=EDdo com todas as info= rma=E7=F5es e documentos necess=E1rios; b) A instru=E7=E3o do pedido enfermar de inexactid=F5es ou falsidades; c) A autoridade credenciadora n=E3o considerar demonstrado algum dos requis= itos enumerados nos artigos 12.=BA e 15=BA. 2. Se o pedido estiver deficientemente instru=EDdo, a autoridade credenciad= ora, antes de recusar a credencia=E7=E3o, notificar=E1 o requerente, dando-= lhe prazo razo=E1vel para suprir a defici=EAncia. Artigo 20.=BA (Caducidade da credencia=E7=E3o) 1. A credencia=E7=E3o caduca se os requerentes a ela expressamente renuncia= rem, se n=E3o iniciarem a actividade no prazo de doze meses ou, tratando-se= de pessoa colectiva esta n=E3o for constitu=EDda no prazo de seis meses. 2. A credencia=E7=E3o caduca ainda se a pessoa colectiva for dissolvida, se= m preju=EDzo da pr=E1tica dos actos necess=E1rios =E0 respectiva liquida=E7= =E3o. Artigo 21=BA (Revoga=E7=E3o da credencia=E7=E3o) 1. A credencia=E7=E3o ser=E1 revogada, sem preju=EDzo de outras san=E7=F5es= aplic=E1veis nos termos da lei, quando se verifique alguma das seguintes s= itua=E7=F5es:=20 a) Se tiver sido obtida por meio de falsas declara=E7=F5es ou outros expedi= entes il=EDcitos,=20 b) Se deixar de se verificar algum dos requisitos enumerados no artigo 12.= =BA; c) Se a entidade cessar a actividade de certifica=E7=E3o ou a reduzir para = n=EDvel insignificante por per=EDodo superior a doze meses; d) Se ocorrerem irregularidades graves na administra=E7=E3o, organiza=E7=E3= o ou fiscaliza=E7=E3o interna da entidade; e) Se no exerc=EDcio da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o ou de outra activida= de social forem praticados actos il=EDcitos que lesem ou ponham em perigo a= confian=E7a do p=FAblico na certifica=E7=E3o; f) Se supervenientemente se verificar alguma das circunst=E2ncias de inidon= eidade referidos no artigo 15=BA em rela=E7=E3o a qualquer das pessoas a qu= e alude o seu n=FAmero 1. 2. A revoga=E7=E3o da credencia=E7=E3o compete =E0 autoridade credenciadora= , em decis=E3o fundamentada que ser=E1 notificada =E0 entidade no prazo de = oito dias =FAteis. 3. A autoridade credenciadora dar=E1 =E0 decis=E3o de revoga=E7=E3o publici= dade adequada. 4. A decis=E3o de revoga=E7=E3o ser=E1 comunicada =E0s autoridades fiscaliz= adoras dos Estados-Membros da Uni=E3o Europeia. Artigo 22.=BA (Anomalias nos =F3rg=E3os de administra=E7=E3o e fiscaliza=E7=E3o) 1. Se por qualquer motivo deixarem de estar preenchidos os requisitos legai= s e estatut=E1rios do normal funcionamento dos =F3rg=E3os de administra=E7= =E3o ou fiscaliza=E7=E3o, a autoridade credenciadora fixar=E1 prazo para se= r regularizada a situa=E7=E3o. 2. N=E3o sendo regularizada a situa=E7=E3o no prazo fixado, ser=E1 revogada= a credencia=E7=E3o nos termos do artigo anterior. Artigo 23.=BA (Comunica=E7=E3o de altera=E7=F5es) Devem ser comunicadas =E0 autoridade credenciadora, no prazo de trinta dias= , as altera=E7=F5es das entidades certificadoras relativas a:=20 a) Firma ou denomina=E7=E3o; b) Objecto; c) Local da sede, salvo se a mudan=E7a ocorrer dentro do mesmo concelho ou = para concelho lim=EDtrofe; d) Substrato patrimonial ou patrim=F3nio, desde que se trate de uma altera= =E7=E3o significativa ; e) Estrutura de administra=E7=E3o e de fiscaliza=E7=E3o; f) Limita=E7=E3o dos poderes dos =F3rg=E3os de administra=E7=E3o e fiscaliz= a=E7=E3o; g) Cis=E3o, fus=E3o e dissolu=E7=E3o. Artigo 24.=BA (Registo) 1. O registo das pessoas referidas no n=FAmero 1 do artigo 15.=BA deve ser = solicitado =E0 autoridade credenciadora no prazo de quinze dias ap=F3s assu= mirem qualquer das qualidades nele referidas, mediante pedido da entidade c= ertificadora ou dos interessados, juntamente com as provas de que se encont= ram preenchidos os requisitos definidos no mesmo artigo, e sob pena da cred= encia=E7=E3o ser revogada=20 2. Poder=E3o a entidade certificadora ou os interessados solicitar o regist= o provis=F3rio, antes da assun=E7=E3o por estes de qualquer das qualidades = referidas no n=FAmero 1 do artigo 15=BA, devendo a convers=E3o do registo e= m definitivo ser requerida no prazo de 30 dias a contar da designa=E7=E3o, = sob pena de caducidade. 3. Em caso de recondu=E7=E3o, ser=E1 esta averbada no registo, a pedido da = entidade certificadora ou dos interessados. 4. O registo ser=E1 recusado em caso de inidoneidade, nos termos do artigo = 15.=BA, e a recusa ser=E1 comunicada aos interessados e =E0 entidade certif= icadora, a qual tomar=E1 as medidas adequadas para que aqueles cessem imedi= atamente fun=E7=F5es ou deixem de estar para com a pessoa colectiva na rela= =E7=E3o prevista no mesmo artigo, seguindo-se no aplic=E1vel o disposto no = artigo 22.=BA. 5. Sem preju=EDzo do que resulte de outras disposi=E7=F5es legais aplic=E1v= eis, a falta de registo n=E3o determina por si s=F3 invalidade dos actos ju= r=EDdicos praticados pela pessoa em causa no exerc=EDcio das suas fun=E7=F5= es. Sec=E7=E3o II Exerc=EDcio da actividade Artigo 25.=BA (Deveres da entidade certificadora) Compete =E0 entidade certificadora: a) Verificar rigorosamente a identidade dos requerentes de pares de chaves = e respectivos certificados e, tratando-se de representantes de pessoas cole= ctivas, os respectivos poderes de representa=E7=E3o, bem como, quando aplic= =E1vel, as qualidades espec=EDficas a que se refere a al=EDnea i) do n=BA 1= do artigo 30=BA; b) Emitir os pares de chaves, ou fornecer os meios t=E9cnicos necess=E1rios= para a sua cria=E7=E3o, bem como o certificado de assinatura com rigorosa = observ=E2ncia do disposto neste diploma e nas normas regulamentares, zeland= o pela correspond=EAncia funcional das duas chaves de cada par e pela exact= id=E3o das informa=E7=F5es constantes dos certificados; c) Especificar no certificado de assinatura ou num certificado complementar= , a pedido do requerente do par de chaves, a exist=EAncia dos poderes de re= presenta=E7=E3o ou de outros t=EDtulos relativos =E0 actividade profissiona= l ou a outros cargos desempenhados; d) Informar os requerentes, de modo completo e claro, sobre o processo de c= ertifica=E7=E3o e sobre os requisitos t=E9cnicos necess=E1rios para ter ace= sso ao mesmo; e) Cumprir as regras de seguran=E7a para tratamento de dados pessoais estab= elecidas na legisla=E7=E3o respectiva; f) Assegurar a publicidade das chaves p=FAblicas e respectivos certificados= e prestar informa=E7=E3o sobre eles a qualquer pessoa que deseje consult= =E1-los, por meios inform=E1ticos e de telecomunica=E7=F5es adequados e exp= editos; g) Abster-se de tomar conhecimento do conte=FAdo das chaves privadas, aceit= ar o seu dep=F3sito, conserv=E1-las, reproduzi-las ou prestar quaisquer inf= orma=E7=F5es sobre as mesmas; h) Proceder =E0 publica=E7=E3o imediata da revoga=E7=E3o ou suspens=E3o dos= certificados, nos casos previstos no presente diploma; i) Conservar os certificados que emitir, por um per=EDodo n=E3o inferior a = vinte anos;=20 j) Assegurar que a data e hora da emiss=E3o, suspens=E3o e revoga=E7=E3o do= s certificados possam ser determinadas, atrav=E9s de validada=E7=E3o cronol= =F3gica. Artigo 26.=BA (Protec=E7=E3o de dados ) 1. As entidades certificadoras s=F3 podem coligir dados pessoais necess=E1r= ios ao exerc=EDcio das suas actividades e obt=EA-los directamente das pesso= as interessadas na titularidade de pares de chaves e respectivos certificad= os, ou de terceiros junto dos quais aquelas pessoas autorizem a sua colecta= . 2. Os dados pessoais coligidos pela entidade certificadora n=E3o poder=E3o = ser utilizados para outra finalidade que n=E3o seja a de certifica=E7=E3o, = salvo se outro uso for consentido expressamente por lei ou pela pessoa inte= ressada. 3. As entidades certificadoras e a autoridade credenciadora respeitar=E3o a= s normas legais vigentes=20 sobre a protec=E7=E3o, tratamento e circula=E7=E3o dos dados pessoais e sob= re a protec=E7=E3o da privacidade no sector das telecomunica=E7=F5es. 4. As entidades certificadoras comunicar=E3o =E0 autoridade judici=E1ria, s= empre que esta o ordenar nos termos legalmente previstos, os dados relativo= s =E0 identidade dos titulares de certificados que sejam emitidos com pseud= =F3nimo seguindo-se, no aplic=E1vel, o regime do artigo 182.=BA do C=F3digo= de Processo Penal. Artigo 27.=BA (Responsabilidade civil) 1. A entidade certificadora =E9 respons=E1vel civilmente pelos danos sofrid= os pelos titulares dos certificados e quaisquer terceiros, em consequ=EAnci= a do incumprimento culposo dos deveres decorrentes do presente diploma e su= a regulamenta=E7=E3o. 2. S=E3o nulas as conven=E7=F5es de exonera=E7=E3o e limita=E7=E3o da respo= nsabilidade prevista no n.=BA 1. Artigo 28.=BA (Cessa=E7=E3o da actividade) 1. No caso de pretender cessar voluntariamente a sua actividade, a entidade= certificadora deve comunicar essa inten=E7=E3o =E0 autoridade credenciador= a e =E0s pessoas a quem tenha emitido certificados que permane=E7am em vigo= r, com a antecipa=E7=E3o m=EDnima de tr=EAs meses, indicando tamb=E9m qual = a entidade certificadora =E0 qual transmitir=E1 a sua documenta=E7=E3o ou a= revoga=E7=E3o dos certificados no termo daquele prazo, devendo neste =FAlt= imo caso colocar a sua documenta=E7=E3o =E0 guarda da autoridade credenciad= ora. 2. A entidade certificadora que se encontre em risco de decreta=E7=E3o de f= al=EAncia, de processo de recupera=E7=E3o de empresa ou de cessa=E7=E3o da = actividade por qualquer outro motivo alheio =E0 sua vontade, deve informar = imediatamente a autoridade credenciadora. 3. No caso previsto no n=FAmero anterior, se a entidade certificadora vier = a cessar a sua actividade, a autoridade credenciadora promover=E1 a transmi= ss=E3o da documenta=E7=E3o daquela para outra entidade certificadora ou, se= tal transmiss=E3o for imposs=EDvel, a revoga=E7=E3o dos certificados emiti= dos e a conserva=E7=E3o dos elementos de tais certificados pelo prazo em qu= e deveria faz=EA-lo a entidade certificadora. Sec=E7=E3o III Certificados Artigo 29.=BA (Emiss=E3o das chaves e dos certificados) 1. A entidade certificadora, a pedido de uma pessoa singular ou colectiva i= nteressada, cuja identidade e poderes de representa=E7=E3o, quando existam,= verificar=E1 por meio legalmente id=F3neo e seguro, emitir=E1 a favor daqu= ela um par de chaves, privada e p=FAblica, ou por=E1 =E0 disposi=E7=E3o des= sa pessoa, se esta o solicitar, os meios t=E9cnicos necess=E1rios para que = ela crie o par de chaves. 2. A entidade certificadora emitir=E1, a pedido do titular do par de chaves= , uma ou mais vias do certificado de assinatura e do certificado complement= ar. 3. A entidade certificadora deve tomar medidas adequadas para impedir a fal= sifica=E7=E3o ou altera=E7=E3o dos dados constantes dos certificados e asse= gurar o cumprimento das normas legais e regulamentares aplic=E1veis recorre= ndo a pessoal devidamente habilitado. 4. A entidade certificadora fornecer=E1 aos titulares dos certificados as i= nforma=E7=F5es necess=E1rias para a utiliza=E7=E3o correcta e segura das as= sinaturas digitais, nomeadamente as respeitantes:=20 a) =E0s obriga=E7=F5es do titular do certificado e da entidade certificador= a; b) ao procedimento de aposi=E7=E3o e verifica=E7=E3o de uma assinatura digi= tal; c) =E0 conveni=EAncia de os documentos aos quais foi aposta uma assinatura = digital serem novamente assinados quando ocorrerem circunst=E2ncias t=E9cni= cas que o justifiquem. 5. A entidade certificadora organizar=E1 e manter=E1 permanentemente actual= izado um registo inform=E1tico dos certificados emitidos, suspensos ou revo= gados, o qual estar=E1 acess=EDvel a qualquer pessoa para consulta, inclusi= vamente por meio de telecomunica=E7=F5es, e ser=E1 protegido contra altera= =E7=F5es n=E3o autorizadas. Artigo 30.=BA (Conte=FAdo dos certificados) 1. O certificado de assinatura deve conter, pelo menos, as seguintes inform= a=E7=F5es:=20 a) Nome ou denomina=E7=E3o do titular da assinatura e outros elementos nece= ss=E1rios para a sua identifica=E7=E3o inequ=EDvoca e, quando existam poder= es de representa=E7=E3o, o nome do seu representante ou representantes habi= litados, ou um pseud=F3nimo distintivo do titular da assinatura, claramente= mencionado como tal; b) Nome e assinatura digital da entidade certificadora, bem como indica=E7= =E3o do pa=EDs onde est=E1 estabelecida; c) Chave p=FAblica correspondente =E0 chave privada detida pelo titular; d) N=FAmero de s=E9rie do certificado; e) In=EDcio e termo de validade do certificado; f) Identificadores de algoritmos necess=E1rios para o uso da chave p=FAblic= a do titular e da chave p=FAblica da entidade certificadora; g) Indica=E7=E3o de o uso do certificado ser ou n=E3o restrito a determinad= os tipos de utiliza=E7=E3o, bem como eventuais limites do valor das transac= =E7=F5es para as quais o certificado =E9 v=E1lido; h) Limita=E7=F5es convencionais da responsabilidade da entidade certificado= ra, sem preju=EDzo do disposto no n=BA 2 do artigo 27.=BA; i) Eventual refer=EAncia a uma qualidade espec=EDfica do titular da assinat= ura, em fun=E7=E3o da utiliza=E7=E3o a que o certificado estiver destinado. 2. A pedido do titular podem ser inclu=EDdas no certificado de assinatura o= u em certificado complementar informa=E7=F5es relativas a poderes de repres= enta=E7=E3o conferidos ao titular por terceiro, =E0 sua qualifica=E7=E3o pr= ofissional ou a outros atributos, mediante fornecimento da respectiva prova= , ou com a men=E7=E3o de se tratar de informa=E7=F5es n=E3o confirmadas. Artigo 31.=BA (Suspens=E3o e revoga=E7=E3o de certificados) 1. A entidade certificadora suspender=E1 o certificado:=20 a) A pedido por escrito do titular, devidamente identificado para o efeito; b) Quando existam fundadas raz=F5es para crer que o certificado foi emitido= com base em informa=E7=F5es err=F3neas ou falsas, que as informa=E7=F5es n= ele contidas deixaram de ser conformes com a realidade ou que a confidencia= lidade da chave privada foi violada. 2. A suspens=E3o com um dos fundamentos previstos na al=EDnea b) do n=FAmer= o anterior ser=E1 sempre motivada e comunicada prontamente ao titular, bem = como imediatamente inscrita no registo do certificado, podendo ser levantad= a quando se verifique que tal fundamento n=E3o corresponde =E0 realidade. 3. A entidade certificadora revogar=E1 o certificado:=20 a) A pedido por escrito do titular, devidamente identificado para o efeito; b) Quando, ap=F3s suspens=E3o do certificado, se confirme que o certificado= foi emitido com base em informa=E7=F5es err=F3neas ou falsas, que as infor= ma=E7=F5es nele contidas deixaram de ser conformes com a realidade, ou que = a confidencialidade da chave privada foi violada; c) Quando a entidade certificadora cesse as suas actividades sem ter transm= itido a sua documenta=E7=E3o a outra entidade certificadora; d) Quando a autoridade credenciadora ordene a revoga=E7=E3o do certificado = por motivo legalmente fundado; e) Quando finde o prazo do certificado; f) Quando tomar conhecimento do falecimento, interdi=E7=E3o ou inabilita=E7= =E3o da pessoa singular ou da extin=E7=E3o da pessoa colectiva. 4. A decis=E3o de revoga=E7=E3o do certificado com um dos fundamentos previ= stos nas al=EDneas b), c), d) e e) do n.=BA 3 ser=E1 sempre fundamentada e = comunicada ao titular, bem como imediatamente inscrita. 5. A suspens=E3o e a revoga=E7=E3o do certificado s=E3o opon=EDveis a terce= iros a partir da inscri=E7=E3o no registo respectivo, salvo se for provado = que o seu motivo j=E1 era do conhecimento do terceiro. 6. A entidade certificadora conservar=E1 as informa=E7=F5es referentes aos = certificados durante um prazo n=E3o inferior a vinte anos a contar da suspe= ns=E3o ou revoga=E7=E3o de cada certificado e facult=E1-las-=E1 a qualquer = interessado. 7. A revoga=E7=E3o ou suspens=E3o do ceritificado indicar=E1 a data e hora = a partir das quais produzem efeitos, n=E3o podendo essa data e hora ser ant= erior =E0quela em que essa informa=E7=E3o for divulgada publicamente. 8. A partir da suspens=E3o ou revoga=E7=E3o de um certificado, ou do termo = do seu prazo de validade =E9 proibida a emiss=E3o de certificado referente = ao mesmo par de chaves pela mesma ou outra entidade certificadora. Artigo 32.=BA (Obriga=E7=F5es do titular) 1. O titular do certificado deve tomar todas as medidas de organiza=E7=E3o = e t=E9cnicas que sejam necess=E1rias para evitar danos a terceiros e para p= reservar a confidencialidade de toda a informa=E7=E3o transmitida. 2. Em caso de d=FAvida quanto =E0 perda de confidencialidade da chave priva= da, o titular deve pedir a suspens=E3o do certificado e, se a perda for con= firmada, a sua revoga=E7=E3o. 3. A partir da suspens=E3o ou revoga=E7=E3o de um certificado, ou do termo = do seu prazo de validade, =E9 proibida ao titular a utiliza=E7=E3o da respe= ctiva chave privada para gerar uma assinatura digital. 4. Sempre que se verifiquem motivos que justifiquem a revoga=E7=E3o ou susp= ens=E3o do certificado, deve o respectivo titular efectuar, com a necess=E1= ria celeridade e dilig=EAncia, o correspondente pedido de suspens=E3o ou re= voga=E7=E3o =E0 entidade certificadora. Cap=EDtulo IV Fiscaliza=E7=E3o Artigo 33.=BA (Deveres de informa=E7=E3o das entidades certificadoras) 1. As entidades certificadoras fornecer=E3o =E0 autoridade credenciadora, d= e modo pronto e exaustivo, todas as informa=E7=F5es que ela lhes solicite p= ara fins de fiscaliza=E7=E3o da sua actividade, e facultar-lhe-=E3o para os= mesmos fins a inspec=E7=E3o dos seus estabelecimentos e o exame local de d= ocumentos, objectos, equipamentos de hardware e software e procedimentos op= eracionais, no decorrer dos quais a autoridade credenciadora poder=E1 fazer= as c=F3pias e registos que sejam necess=E1rios. 2. As entidades certificadoras comunicar=E3o sempre =E0 autoridade credenci= adora, no mais breve prazo poss=EDvel, todas as altera=E7=F5es relevantes q= ue sobrevenham nos requisitos e elementos referidos nos artigos 13=BA e 15= =BA. 3. At=E9 ao =FAltimo dia =FAtil de cada semestre, as entidades certificador= as enviar=E3o =E0 autoridade credenciadora uma vers=E3o actualizada das rel= a=E7=F5es referidas na al=EDnea b) do n=BA 1 do artigo 13.=BA. Artigo 34.=BA (Revisores oficiais de contas e auditores externos) Os revisores oficiais de contas ao servi=E7o das entidades certificadoras e= os auditores externos que, por imposi=E7=E3o legal, prestem =E0s mesmas en= tidades servi=E7os de auditoria devem comunicar =E0 autoridade credenciador= a as infrac=E7=F5es graves =E0s normas legais ou regulamentares relevantes = para a fiscaliza=E7=E3o e que detectem no exerc=EDcio das suas fun=E7=F5es. Artigo 35.=BA (Recursos) Nos recursos interpostos das decis=F5es tomadas pela autoridade credenciado= ra no exerc=EDcio dos seus poderes de credencia=E7=E3o e fiscaliza=E7=E3o, = presume-se, at=E9 prova em contr=E1rio, que a suspens=E3o da efic=E1cia det= ermina grave les=E3o do interesse p=FAblico. Artigo 36.=BA (Colabora=E7=E3o das autoridades) A autoridade credenciadora poder=E1 solicitar =E0s autoridades policiais e = judici=E1rias e a quaisquer outras autoridades e servi=E7os p=FAblicos toda= a colabora=E7=E3o ou aux=EDlio que julgue necess=E1rios para a credencia= =E7=E3o e fiscaliza=E7=E3o da actividade de certifica=E7=E3o. Cap=EDtulo V Disposi=E7=F5es finais Artigo 37.=BA (Certificados de outros pa=EDses) 1. As assinaturas digitais suscept=EDveis de serem verificadas por uma chav= e p=FAblica constante de um certificado emitido ou garantido por entidade c= ertificadora credenciada em outro Estado membro da Uni=E3o Europeia, ou nou= tro Estado abrangido por um acordo internacional que vincule o Estado Portu= gu=EAs, ser=E3o equiparadas =E0s assinaturas digitais certificadas nos term= os do presente diploma. 2. A autoridade credenciadora divulgar=E1, sempre que poss=EDvel e pelos me= ios de publicidade que considerar adequados, e facultar=E1 aos interessados= , a pedido, as informa=E7=F5es de que dispuser acerca das entidades certifi= cadoras credenciadas em Estados estrangeiros. Artigo 38.=BA (Normas regulamentares) 1. A regulamenta=E7=E3o do presente diploma, nomeadamente no que se refere = =E0s normas de car=E1cter t=E9cnico e de seguran=E7a constar=E1 de Decreto = Regulamentar, a adoptar no prazo de 150 dias. 2. Os servi=E7os e organismos da Administra=E7=E3o P=FAblica poder=E3o emit= ir normas regulamentares relativas aos requisitos a que devem obedecer os d= ocumentos que recebam por via electr=F3nica. Artigo 39=BA (Evolu=E7=E3o tecnol=F3gica) A autoridade credenciadora acompanhar=E1 a evolu=E7=E3o tecnol=F3gica em ma= t=E9ria de assinatura electr=F3nica, podendo propor a aplica=E7=E3o do regi= me previsto no presente diploma para a assinatura digital a outras modalida= des de assinatura electr=F3nica que satisfa=E7am os requisitos de seguran= =E7a e fiabilidade daquela. Artigo 40=BA (Designa=E7=E3o da autoridade credenciadora) A autoridade p=FAblica referida no artigo 11=BA ser=E1 designada, em diplom= a pr=F3prio, no prazo de 150 dias. Artigo 41=BA (Entrada em vigor) O presente diploma entra em vigor no dia imediato ao da sua publica=E7=E3o. O Primeiro-Ministro O Ministro das Finan=E7as=20 O Ministro da Justi=E7a O Ministro da Ci=EAncia e da Tecnologia Publicado no Di=E1rio da Rep=FAblica N=BA 178, Serie I-A, em 02/08/99 --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-VkbuSjy1LySSoEIUSq7D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xDoVo+C50no0+t4RAnK9AJ4klWKofbxynkRz8Zh6Vrb/VDuBFwCfeqU7 D207G0oxs8GVBiiZ6hmfX+U= =7E+I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-VkbuSjy1LySSoEIUSq7D-- From figueira arroba europe.com Mon Apr 22 18:52:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 17:52:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <1019493889.8893.5.camel@jung> Viva, On Sat, 2002-04-20 at 23:18, Vitor Domingos wrote: > Estive a ler hoje uma "breve" no expresso sobre um especialista em > direito informatico, o Dr. Manuel Lopes Rocha. Que possui ou trabalha > para um escritorio de advogados especialistas em direito informatico > (pareceu-me). >=20 > Penso que esta pessoa nos podera' dar uma ajuda na traducao do GPL para > portugues juridico ou entao podera' indicar-nos alguem que nos possa > ajudar. Sim. O Diogo Vasconcelos t=EDnha-nos falado desse senhor. Se n=E3o me engan= o tamb=E9m mencionou que ele =E9 advogado da Microsoft. Mas ok, n=E3o =E9 por a=ED... > No entanto nao temos nada a perder se pelo menos perguntarmos o que e' > que ele acha e se conhece alguem que nos possa ajudar, se ele por=20 > cargos obvios nao puder ajudar... >=20 > O que acham ?.. Acho que se trata de uma pessoa a visitar para explicar os nossos assuntos e tentar fazer algo. De qualquer das maneiras, temos de acabar a nossa documenta=E7=E3o sobre as quest=F5es que para n=F3s s=E3o as mais importantes. sem isso, podemos ter uma boa conversa, mas mais nada. > A minha pergunta uma vez mais... Sera' que perdemos ao pedir ajuda e > explicar o que e' a ANSOL? N=E3o, claro que n=E3o! --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Mon Apr 22 19:24:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 18:24:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: <1019493889.8893.5.camel@jung> References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> <1019493889.8893.5.camel@jung> Message-ID: <1019495835.8891.15.camel@jung> Viva, On Mon, 2002-04-22 at 17:44, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Acho que se trata de uma pessoa a visitar para explicar os nossos > assuntos e tentar fazer algo. De qualquer das maneiras, temos de acabar > a nossa documenta=E7=E3o sobre as quest=F5es que para n=F3s s=E3o as mais > importantes. sem isso, podemos ter uma boa conversa, mas mais nada. Quando respondi ainda n=E3o tinha lido a mensagem do Jo=E3o. De facto ele tem raz=E3o, existe alguma incompatibilidade entre ele ser advogado da Microsoft e podermos estar =E0 vontade com ele. N=E3o se trata de maneira nenhuma de guerras ou birras, mas sim de assuntos que sendo opostos (e s=E3o), n=E3o podem ser discutidos de forma prom=EDscua, sobretudo com advogados. Assim, tentemos falar com outro senhor advogado que n=E3o este, e de prefer=EAncia que n=E3o seja do mesmo escrit=F3rio. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 22 19:38:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 22 18:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Decreto-Lei relativo a assinatura digital References: <1019492885.7504.45.camel@roque> Message-ID: <00a301c1ea22$adffe1a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva Rui, Penso que a ideia da Lei é mais relacionada com o Comércio Electronico, e nesse sentido penso que faz algum sentido saber quem é que é o Certificador, i.e. haver alguém que tenha a garantia do Estado que é idónea e "encontrável" caso faça asneira. Eu não vi nada que impedisse uma associação como a ANSOL de poder ser uma Entidade Certificadora [excluíndo os possíveis custos ;-) ]. Este diploma vem também resolver um problema gravissimo que eu até já tive e que é o facto de um email não ser considerado prova em caso de litigio judicial. O fax é, mas hoje em dia cada vez mais a comunicação é feita quase só com recurso a email o que veio criar um vazio legal (Capítulo II, Artigo 7.º Nº 3 ). O que me preocupa mais é a parte dos "documentos" e acima de tudo este parágrafo: "Contudo, e considerando que em face do constante desenvolvimento tecnológico esta solução de autenticação de dados pode ser, em pouco tempo, tecnicamente ultrapassada pela afirmação de outras formas de assinatura electrónica, o regime previsto no presente diploma poderá vir a ser aplicado a outras modalidades de assinatura electrónica que satisfaçam os requisitos de segurança da assinatura digital." Isto sim! Eu não vejo nenhuma necessidade de ter alguém que certifique os emails trocados entre, por exemplo, funcionários de uma empresa. Neste caso, e até por questões de segredo comercial e privacidade, o Certificador TEM de ser a própria empresa e não uma entidade externa. Ora, as condições para se ser Certificador não estão reguladas o que originará, como de costume, que só os grandes "potentados" é que poderão vir a ser Certificadores (Capítulo III, Secção I, Artigo 12º e 13º), o que não é de forma nenhuma um garante de idoneidade, embora possa parecer à primeira vista. Isto ainda nos levanta problemas se atentarmos ao problemas das Patentes (como a última tentativa do sr. Rupert Murdock de tentar patentar um sistema baseado em processos de dominio público e das tentativas da Amazon) e de virmos a ter uma qualquer multinacional a querer patentar os sistemas futuros de Assinatura Digital e Encriptação de Documentos. E isso é muito mau, sobre qualquer aspecto e não só sob o aspecto do Software Livre. E o ainda mais preocupante não é o que a Lei comtempla agora mas sim o que pretende "inocentemente" vir a comtemplar (Capítulo I, Artigo 1.º Nº 2 e Artigo 2.º, alíneas f e h). 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rui Miguel Silva Seabra" To: Sent: Segunda-feira, 22 de Abril de 2002 17:28 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Decreto-Lei relativo a assinatura digital (...) Decreto-Lei Nº 290-D/99 DECRETO-LEI RELATIVO À ASSINATURA DIGITAL (...) From rms arroba 1407.org Mon Apr 22 20:35:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Mon Apr 22 19:35:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Decreto-Lei relativo a assinatura digital In-Reply-To: <00a301c1ea22$adffe1a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <1019492885.7504.45.camel@roque> <00a301c1ea22$adffe1a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019500159.10394.51.camel@roque> --=-paW7jyiLyPe3UVVixtsN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2002-04-22 at 18:25, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Penso que a ideia da Lei =E9 mais relacionada com o Com=E9rcio Electronic= o, e > nesse sentido penso que faz algum sentido saber quem =E9 que =E9 o Certif= icador, > i.e. haver algu=E9m que tenha a garantia do Estado que =E9 id=F3nea e > "encontr=E1vel" caso fa=E7a asneira. Eu n=E3o vi nada que impedisse uma a= ssocia=E7=E3o > como a ANSOL de poder ser uma Entidade Certificadora [exclu=EDndo os poss= =EDveis > custos ;-) ]. So que com esta lei nao vai existir lei nenhuma que valide outras tecnicas. Esta lei esta feita apenas para estruturas com 3a parte de confianca. >=20 > Este diploma vem tamb=E9m resolver um problema gravissimo que eu at=E9 j= =E1 tive e > que =E9 o facto de um email n=E3o ser considerado prova em caso de litigi= o > judicial. Aonde e que resolve? O que resolve e que isso so assim e se eu pagar $/ano a uma empresa comercial, que nao confio necessariamente. Resultado: lei para favorecer empresas em detrimento dos cidadaos. Agora, nao acredito que tenha assim sido com ma intencao, apenas ignorancia a respeito de PKI. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-paW7jyiLyPe3UVVixtsN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xFZ/o+C50no0+t4RAs6DAJ40aRDW8kUOwcao6tWvayEgp+BcwACdEFFd vWUoyWWS3sgkX9cnvKrtTO0= =mprM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-paW7jyiLyPe3UVVixtsN-- From hnogueira arroba april.org Mon Apr 22 23:11:01 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 22:11:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Direito Informatico In-Reply-To: References: <20020420231842.4577aee9.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: <3CC0B5370008721F@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > Voltamos ao problema base: precisamos de empresas que lidem e fa=E7am M= UITO > dinheiro com o software livre ou com servi=E7os ao software livre. Com Linux : IBM, Sun. > (e que respeitem o GPL e outras licen=E7as e as 4 liberdades do softwar= e) Mais complicado. Hugo. From hnogueira arroba april.org Mon Apr 22 23:13:02 2002 From: hnogueira arroba april.org (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 22 22:13:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novo ataque de Bill Gates contra a GPL Message-ID: <3CC095F30008C15D@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Dirigido contra os paises mais pobres : http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24970.html "There's a faction against that, the so-called general GPL source license free software foundation, that says that these other countries other than the U.S. should devote R&D dollars in the so-called open approach, that means you can never commercialize that software. And it is an interesting choice to deny -- for a country to deny itself the benefits of these high-paying jobs and the kind of taxes that let countries fund their universities, and fund general research that then goes to renew that pool= of commercial R&D. Clearly there's an ecosystem there that has worked extrem= ely well in the United States, and has probably been the unique thing that ha= s let that push forward. And there is now a recognition that it's really a question of policy of allowing the so-called capitalistic approach to win the day there." Lionel Allorge E-mail : lionel.allorge@lunerouge.com Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.com Terminal Damage : http://www.terminal-damage.org "Micro$oft is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." http://www.gnu.org/ ------------------------------------------------------- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 00:40:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Mon Apr 22 23:40:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case Message-ID: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24286.html From aife arroba netvisao.pt Tue Apr 23 01:24:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Tue Apr 23 00:24:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: Em Segunda, 22 de Abril de 2002 23:21, Lopo de Almeida escreveu: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24286.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral Into the trashcan's of history!!! http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/11671.html Isto demonstra que se queremos crescer como a microsoft :), temos que ter acesso ao código fonte.... Como eles não dão o código fonte, nunca ninguém na eco-lixeira da Microsoft vai crescer mais do que eles... (Muito capitalista deles...e eu que julgava que o capitalismo era baseado na igualdade de oportunidades de concorrência...) Um argumento para todos os jovens ingênuos que antes da sua primeira venda na sua empresa já andam a pedir ao banco o dinheiro para o Ferrari (pobres almas... que se enganam a elas próprias), e que não faltam neste pobre país de "empresas" e "jovens empresários" e fundos europeus (infelizmente só temos uma pseudo-cópia corporativa e católica da moralidade empresarial protestante...pelo que a revolução industrial nunca por cá passou... e avançamos logo para os serviços de coisa nenhuma...). Não acham que devia haver uma mailling lista da ANSOL para empresas ou interessados em começar empresas baseadas em software livre? um abraço, André Esteves From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 02:02:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 01:02:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva André, "Isto demonstra que se queremos crescer como a microsoft :), temos que ter acesso ao código fonte.... Como eles não dão o código fonte, nunca ninguém na eco-lixeira da Microsoft vai crescer mais do que eles..." O meu email era sobre uma noticia preocupante. Se a FSF não ganhar esta primeira causa acho dificil manter os combates futuros, não achas? "(Muito capitalista deles...e eu que julgava que o capitalismo era baseado na igualdade de oportunidades de concorrência...)" Ah! Jovem inocência... O capitalismos deles assenta numa moral muito particular e por isso tem o nome de "Capitalismo Selvagem". E têm também aquele simbolo de "Vence o melhor" e "O que está errado para os outros não está errado para mim", e ainda a melhor que é o seu entendimento do mundo que funciona a "dois pesos e duas medidas". Enfim, coisas muito intrinsecas do pensamento anglófilo, e não somente do Americano, como se pode vêr pelas posições inglesas face à EU... quando lhes interessa (exportar carne e outras coisas sem impostos) são Europeus, quando se trata de política externa (recente caso da pseudo-guerra ao Terrorismo) ou monetária (caso do Euro e das Medidas) já são europeus. "Um argumento para todos os jovens ingênuos que antes da sua primeira venda na sua empresa já andam a pedir ao banco o dinheiro para o Ferrari (pobres almas... que se enganam a elas próprias), e que não faltam neste pobre país de "empresas" e "jovens empresários" e fundos europeus (infelizmente só temos uma pseudo-cópia corporativa e católica da moralidade empresarial protestante...pelo que a revolução industrial nunca por cá passou... e avançamos logo para os serviços de coisa nenhuma...)." Esta é muito profunda e custa-me compreender aonde queres chegar ;-) "Não acham que devia haver uma mailling lista da ANSOL para empresas ou interessados em começar empresas baseadas em software livre?" E há! Está é escondida... e digo-te que tem pouco uso (ou nenhum). O pessoal também está todo nesta e prefere discutir as coisas por aqui mesmo. ;-) Além de que a ANSOL não tem, para já, uma politica face às empresas que se querem dedicar (ou já dedicam) ao Software Livre. Quer dizer... uma bem estabelecida e programada ;-) E agora também temos outros problemas mais graves (EUCD, etc) que se não cuidarmos rápidamente não vai haver Software Livre para que existam empresas que se dediquem a ele :-( "um abraço," Outro. Lopo From aife arroba netvisao.pt Tue Apr 23 02:39:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Tue Apr 23 01:39:01 2002 Subject: Explicando o... Re: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: Em Terça, 23 de Abril de 2002 00:54, escreveste: > "Um argumento para todos os jovens ingênuos que antes da sua primeira venda > na > sua empresa já andam a pedir ao banco o dinheiro para o Ferrari (pobres > almas... que se enganam a elas próprias), e que não faltam neste pobre país > de "empresas" e "jovens empresários" e fundos europeus (infelizmente só > temos > uma pseudo-cópia corporativa e católica da moralidade empresarial > protestante...pelo que a revolução industrial nunca por cá passou... e > avançamos logo para os serviços de coisa nenhuma...)." > > Esta é muito profunda e custa-me compreender aonde queres chegar ;-) > Estou a ser cínico... muito cínico e a dar um nome á cultura empresarial portuguesa... > pseudo-cópia corporativa e católica da moralidade empresarial > protestante... Imagina que neste momento existe uma associação de empresários católicos e amigos que paga a um Sr.Espada e financia-lhe uma revista para reescrever "A ética protestante e o espírito do capitalismo" do Max Weber, de modo que o catolicismo tb possa ser considerado uma força apoiante do capitalismo... Até parecem um partido comunista, com um ideólogo de serviço. Coitados... Têm escrúpulos... e consciências carregadas perante nosso senhor e a virgem... mas não vão a lado nenhum porque não têm produtividade... só conseguem ser uns empata-fodas e manter o status quo... > "Não acham que devia haver uma mailling lista da ANSOL para empresas ou > interessados em começar empresas baseadas em software livre?" > > E há! Está é escondida... e digo-te que tem pouco uso (ou nenhum). O > pessoal também está todo nesta e prefere discutir as coisas por aqui mesmo. > ;-) > > Além de que a ANSOL não tem, para já, uma politica face às empresas que se > querem dedicar (ou já dedicam) ao Software Livre. Quer dizer... uma bem > estabelecida e programada ;-) > > E agora também temos outros problemas mais graves (EUCD, etc) que se não > cuidarmos rápidamente não vai haver Software Livre para que existam > empresas que se dediquem a ele :-( A impressão que me cresce é que estamos a fazer um combate mal preparado... Quando se vai falar com um ministro ou um partido é necessário ter peso! Ou seja, precisamos de pessoas, muitas pessoas ou interesses que eles não queiram chatear... É assim que ouvem uma CIP, AIP, AEP, SGTP, UGT, A Abraço, A Liga das mulheres para a Temperança, O Circo Cardinali, etc, etc. Um político e o seu grau de "empenhamento" dependem sempre do que ele raciocina: o que posso ganhar/perder com isto, quem é que eu incomodo/agrado com isto... Não se pode ir com argumentos económicos ou patrióticos, filosofia, ética ou que seja. Isso não têm o menor valor para eles. No mínimo servem á posteriori para publicamente se manifestarem e/ou utilizarem como propaganda/argumento. É assim que, na minha opinião, o processo de filiação de sócios e o aparecimento de empresas são CRÍTICOS e ESTRATÉGICOS! (desculpem-me o berro...) O EUCD é muito grave. Muito, muito grave! Os dossiers são muito importantes, mas arriscamo-nos a nem sequer ser considerados relevantes... Um abraço, André Esteves From aife arroba netvisao.pt Tue Apr 23 02:50:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Tue Apr 23 01:50:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: Em Terça, 23 de Abril de 2002 00:54, Lopo de Almeida escreveu: > Viva André, > > "Isto demonstra que se queremos crescer como a microsoft :), temos que ter > acesso ao código fonte.... > > Como eles não dão o código fonte, nunca ninguém na eco-lixeira da Microsoft > vai crescer mais do que eles..." > > O meu email era sobre uma noticia preocupante. > Se a FSF não ganhar esta primeira causa acho dificil manter os combates > futuros, não achas? Concordo em absoluto... Para o GPL ser forte nos USA (e nos tribunais de propriedade intelectual através do Tratado de Genebra), precisa de criar precedentes nos tribunais americanos (dada a natureza e funcionamento do sistema legal anglo-saxónico). Em portugal (que aparentemente têm o sistema de direitos de autor da europa mais americanizado) não existe sequer a cláusula de "fair use", pois esta foi criada por precedente nos USA... Pelo que um contracto como o GPL pode ser até contrário ás leis vigentes... Precisamos de um advogado e que simpatize com a nossa causa. Um abraço, André Esteves From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Tue Apr 23 03:16:02 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Tue Apr 23 02:16:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <3CC4B48B.5E2FE636@explicacoes.com> André Esteves wrote: > Em portugal (que aparentemente têm o sistema de direitos de autor da europa > mais americanizado) não existe sequer a cláusula de "fair use", pois esta foi > criada por precedente nos USA... >Pelo que um contracto como o GPL pode ser até contrário ás leis vigentes... Já vi esta opinião várias vezes e acho que a questão é bastante simples. A lei portuguesa considera que os direitos pertencem ao autor por omissão. Se um contracto GPL for declarado nulo isso torna a cópia de software GPL ilegal e quem tem direito a processar quem copia é o autor. Mas se o autor libertou o código sob GPL, não tem motivação para processar ninguém. A única situação pode ser problemática é o caso em que o autor age de má fé e resolve tornar proprietário código que publicou anteriormente sob GPL e processa os autores de programas derivados. No entanto, a situação, para alem de improvável, é análoga aquela em que o autor torna o código do domínio público e essa situação deve ser aceite pela lei portuguesa. O que é mais importante para a GPL funcionar é que o código não possa ser tornado proprietário e isso é garantido pela lei portuguesa. Joao http://www.nonio.com From rms arroba 1407.org Tue Apr 23 11:26:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Tue Apr 23 10:26:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novo ataque de Bill Gates contra a GPL In-Reply-To: <3CC095F30008C15D@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) References: <3CC095F30008C15D@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) Message-ID: <1019553604.1300.35.camel@roque> --=-Bl93e9Ab8SA/MP/y4lm0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Against what? Faltou ai a frase anterior que revela o verdadeiro ataque... nos EUA ainda ha muito o fantasma do comunismo, o grande enimigo do capitalismo, e o Tio Gates esta a tentar associar a GNU GPL (reparem como a Microsoft subtilmente tenta sempre transforma o sentido da liberdade para o sentido do acesso ao codigo fonte) aos anti-capitalistas (ie, comunistas): "One thing that we get people discussing with us a lot is how to create jobs around IT activity. And I think you will see some countries who really believe in the capitalistic approach; that is, that software ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ should generate jobs, and government R&D should generate jobs, so that government R&D should be done on a basis that it can be commercialized. On Mon, 2002-04-22 at 22:03, Hugo Nogueira wrote: > Dirigido contra os paises mais pobres : > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24970.html >=20 > "There's a faction against that, the so-called general GPL source license > free software foundation, that says that these other countries other than > the U.S. should devote R&D dollars in the so-called open approach, that > means you can never commercialize that software. And it is an interesting > choice to deny -- for a country to deny itself the benefits of these > high-paying jobs and the kind of taxes that let countries fund their > universities, and fund general research that then goes to renew that pool= of > commercial R&D. Clearly there's an ecosystem there that has worked extrem= ely > well in the United States, and has probably been the unique thing that ha= s > let that push forward. And there is now a recognition that it's really a > question of policy of allowing the so-called capitalistic approach to win > the day there." >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Lionel Allorge > E-mail : lionel.allorge@lunerouge.com > Lune Rouge : http://www.lunerouge.com > Terminal Damage : http://www.terminal-damage.org >=20 > "Micro$oft is the world that has been pulled over your eyes > to blind you from the truth." > http://www.gnu.org/ >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-Bl93e9Ab8SA/MP/y4lm0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xSdEo+C50no0+t4RAnZFAJ9ToLk5epKGHKr6uXplBYHbubxRggCgp0L/ wBUSG1hCyFd4FX3XCtnrkpw= =gGvv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Bl93e9Ab8SA/MP/y4lm0-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 13:23:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 12:23:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <3CC4B48B.5E2FE636@explicacoes.com> Message-ID: <006001c1eab8$60fa8f40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> "Já vi esta opinião várias vezes e acho que a questão é bastante simples. A lei portuguesa considera que os direitos pertencem ao autor por omissão. Se um contracto GPL for declarado nulo isso torna a cópia de software GPL ilegal e quem tem direito a processar quem copia é o autor. Mas se o autor libertou o código sob GPL, não tem motivação para processar ninguém. A única situação pode ser problemática é o caso em que o autor age de má fé e resolve tornar proprietário código que publicou anteriormente sob GPL e processa os autores de programas derivados. No entanto, a situação, para alem de improvável, é análoga aquela em que o autor torna o código do domínio público e essa situação deve ser aceite pela lei portuguesa. O que é mais importante para a GPL funcionar é que o código não possa ser tornado proprietário e isso é garantido pela lei portuguesa." Ora caro João! O PROBLEMA é que isso já aconteceu. Enfim, não processaram ninguém mas... subitamente o produto que tinham desenvolvido em GPL durante um ror de tempo e que até teve uma notícia muito favorável no Tek Sapo passou a ser Proprietário... e ninguém fez nada, excepto eu que os insultei de tudo e fiz comunicados de imprensa a alertar para o facto, mas quando uma pessoa - e especialmente uma empresa - toma esse tipo de atitudes vêm logo dizer que é inveja e que o que nós queríamos era abarbatar o trabalho dos outros. Enfim! Borrifei-me para o assunto e até à descoberta da ANSOL deixei de me preocupar com os projectozinhos nacionais. Mais! Eu até mandei um email para a FSF e a resposta foi muito ambigua e fez-me vêr o que tenho dito já nesta lista é realidade. Espero que entretanto eles tenham mudado de estilo. SERÁ QUE A FSF VAI DEFENDER (OU AJUDAR) TODOS OU SÓ OS GRANDES Sim! Porque a MySQL AB não é própriamente o Lopo ou o João, não é verdade? Esperemos que o tempo não me dê razão e a FSF não se demonstre ser uma organização de defesa das GRANDES MULTINACIONAIS, que embora do Software Livre, não deixam de o ser. 1, Lopo PS: Os "rapazes" que fizeram o golpe com o GPL parece que já voltaram atrás. Tenho que investigar mais por isso não menciono nomes aqui :-) From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 14:01:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 13:01:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case Message-ID: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> É! Afinal os ******** ainda não mudaram a sua atitude. Ainda andei aqui à procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com este assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas não encontrei nada. Já era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( No entanto reenvio-vos aqui dois emails que foi trocado com o editor da notícia na Emarketeer (e não no Tek Sapo)relacionado com este assunto e outra que enviei para o GNU e da qual perdi a resposta (infelizmente). O interessante é poderem vêr a justificação que eles arranjaram para deixarem o GPL. É de risos :-D Claro que se ainda estivermos a tempo de lhes dar um "puxão de orelhas" era mesmo muito interessante e servia de exemplo para outros "senhores empresários" que viessem a tentar a jogada. Eu gosto pouco de vigarices e deste estilo "manhoso" que tende a imperar no nosso país à beira mar plantado ;-) Eu também tenho alguns produtos comerciais que são elaborados para clientes e nesses casos é pago o desenvolvimento e não se pretende que é Software Livre. Há que destrinçar as coisas e não tentar usar as pessoas e a sua boa vontade. 1, Lopo ****************************************** MENSAGEM PARA EMARKETEER ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "EiNet - Sitaar" To: "Luis Delgado" Sent: Quarta-feira, 24 de Janeiro de 2001 19:39 Subject: Re: Sobre a Bug-Mall Caro Luís, Também me enviaram a "justificação", mas não pode ser. O conceito de OpenSource não permite que isto possa acontecer. Eles têm de pelo menos deixar a última versão em OpenSource. O não o fazerem estarão a incorrer em roubo de propriedade intelectual de todos os desenvolvedores que possam ter contribuido para a aplicação original. Eu já participei o ocorrido para a FreeSoftware Foundation e acho que estes casos devem ser expostos senão corre-se o risco de ninguém acreditar no OpenSource e essa aposta morrer. Existem inúmeras formas de licenciaro software. No site da GNU (http://www.gnu.org/home.pt.html) explica todas as formas e as suas implicações. O facto do software ser em opensource não implica que não existem direitos de autor, antes pelo contrário. Já viu se agora o Linus Torvalds disse-se: "Bom! A partir de hoje o kernel do Linux é meu e ninguém mais pde desenvolver nada sem me pagar uma taxa.". Giro não era. Se o OpenSource fosse assim então o Bill Gates já tinha enveredado por este meio para desenvolver o Windows há muito tempo. O que estes jovens (que presumo que sejam jovens e inexperientes, porque senão nunca teriam tido este tipo de atitude) fizeram foi aproveitar um grupo de otários para lhes desenvolver rápidamente um software. E sem custos de maior. Cumprimentos, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis Delgado" To: Sent: Quarta-feira, 24 de Janeiro de 2001 16:37 Subject: FW: Sobre a Bug-Mall : Caro Lopo, : : Aqui está um mail com a justificação dada pela Bug Software relativamente à : questão "Open Source" do Bug Mall, que na sua primeira versão foi : efectivamente distribuido em regime de Open-Source. : : Cumprimentos, : : -- : Luís Gustavo Delgado : ------------------------------------------------------------ : Emaketeer.net : www.emarketeer.net : luis.delgado@emarketeer.net : Av.de Berna, n.º 6 - 2.º Esq. : Pt-1050-040 Lisboa : PORTUGAL : Tel:+351 21 781 52 60 : Fax:+351 21 781 52 69 : ------------------------------ : : -----Original Message----- : From: Cristina Pereira [mailto:cristina@bug-software.com] : Sent: quarta-feira, 24 de Janeiro de 2001 13:16 : To: Luis Delgado : Subject: RE: Sobre a Bug-Mall : : : : Sr. Luis Delgado, efectivamente a primeira versão da aplicação foi : distribuida em Open-Source, mas devido às caracteristicas especificas do : mercado portugues, a aplicação BugMall Shopping Cart deixou de ser Open : Source e passou a ser comercializada, o mesmo se pode constactar visitando o : site da aplicação em http://www.bug-mall.org/. Irei contudo enviar : informação actualizada sobre a aplicação para a Emarketeer.net para que tais : situações deixem de acontecer, estando ao seu dispor para qualquer : esclarecimento. : : Atentamente : Paulo Andrade ****************************************** FIM: MENSAGEM PARA EMARKETEER ****************************************** ****************************************** MENSAGEM PARA GNU ORG ****************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "EiNet - Sitaar" To: Cc: "Luis Delgado" ; Sent: Quarta-feira, 24 de Janeiro de 2001 19:39 Subject: Problems with GPL Lincense Dear friends, There was a company here in Portugal that started to develop a software in OpenSource. Suddently they stop with that and removed all links to that software and start selling it. How can we solve this? If everybody starts saying that the software is opensource and suddently goes commercial and "thanks very much you suckers GNU developers", OpenSource could die, won't you think? The site is http://www.bug-mall.org/ and the answer that they gave is as follow (sorry but you must find someone to translate it to english): ------------------ their email message below ------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristina Pereira" To: "EiNet - Sitaar" Sent: Quarta-feira, 24 de Janeiro de 2001 13:12 Subject: RE: Sobre a Bug-Mall : : Sr. Lopo Lencastre de Almeida, efectivamente a primeira versão da aplicação : foi distribuida em Open-Source, mas devido às caracteristicas especificas do : mercado portugues, a aplicação BugMall Shopping Cart deixou de ser Open : Source e passou a ser comercializada, o mesmo se pode constactar visitando o : site da aplicação em http://www.bug-mall.org/. Irei contudo enviar : informação actualizada sobre a aplicação para a Emarketeer.net para que tais : situações deixem de acontecer, estando ao seu dispor para qualquer : esclarecimento. : : Atentamente : Paulo Andrade : ------------------ their email message above ------------------ Best regards, Lopo Lencastre de Almeida -- EiNet - Internet Consulting Sitaar - Sistemas de Informacao, Lda. Apartado 410 * 2900-901 SETÚBAL URL: http://www.sitaar.pt mailto:einet@sitaar.pt * mailto:sales@sitaar.pt ****************************************** FIM: MENSAGEM PARA GNU ORG ****************************************** From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 14:45:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 13:45:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral][Ainda sobre] Decreto-Lei relativo a assinatura digital Message-ID: <088801c1eac3$e41099a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva RMS, Mais algumas achegas ;-) On Mon, 2002-04-22 at 18:25, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >> Este diploma vem também resolver um problema gravissimo que eu até já tive e >> que é o facto de um email não ser considerado prova em caso de litigio >> judicial. > >Aonde e que resolve? O que resolve e que isso so assim e se eu pagar >$/ano a uma empresa comercial, que nao confio necessariamente. >Resultado: lei para favorecer empresas em detrimento dos cidadaos. Resolver, resolve. Porque se eu tiver uma resposta Certificada - não interessa por quem concretamente, mas que o seja por alguém que o Estado reconheça - eu posso usar esse email ou documento digital como prova em Tribunal. Já me fez falta. A forma encontrada - através de empresas certificadoras que nos vão chupar o tutano - já é outra questão. Eu separei o objectivo/conceito da forma/processo ;-) A meu vêr o ideal seria que a Entidade Certificadora fosse um Instituto do Estado directamente relacionado com o Arquivo de Identificação (e potencialmente com a FCCN por questões de operacionalidade) cujo serviço fosse gratuito para os cidadãos. Assim qualquer pessoa que tivesse um BI (Nacional ou Estrangeiro) estaria por isso legalmente a residir em Portugal e teria direito à sua Assinatura Digital. Se as empresas ou instituições quisessem também ter a sua AD (sem conotações) então teria de se estudar outro processo que poderia passar por um pagamento simbólico ao mesmo Insituto e talvez correlacionar com os dados do RNPC onde têm de estar registadas todas as empresas/instituições a operar em Portugal. Esta poderia ser uma proposta concreta para a ANSOL apresentar ao nosso Governo, não achas? Quanto aos custos para o Estado de montar uma "brincadeira" destas peço a quem tiver mais conhecimentos (se calhar tu mesmo) que comece a pensar em elaborá-la ... porque se formos apresentar uma ideia destas o Governo ou aos "oposicionistas", eles/elas vão logo perguntar em quanto vai ficar a "gracinha". Estamos numa época de encolhas ;-) 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 23 15:19:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 14:19:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Para acabar de vez com a confusão... Message-ID: <089401c1eac8$933b9980$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Carissímos (e carissímas), Estive a dar uma vista de olhos na lista e uma preocupação ressaltou de imediato. São lançadas imensas ideias sobre acções e medidas e parece que não se avança concretamente para lado nenhum. Acho que devemos criar desde já grupos de trabalho com listas de discussão separadas. Mas é para trabalhar mesmo. Para criar processos. Para preparar propostas concretas. Não é para conversa de chacha. Quem subscrever assume o compromisso de TRABALHAR, ok ;-) As minhas propostas: . Imagem da ANSOL http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-marketing Para definir Imagem (logo, papelarias, website) e acções de Marketing . EUCD http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-eucd Para trabalhar sobre propostas relacionadas com EUCD . Patentes http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-patentes Para trabalhar sobre propostas relacionadas com Patentes . Direito http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-direito Para trabalhar sobre trad. GPL e outras questões . Assinatura Digital http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-assinaturadigital Para trabalhar sobre propostas relacionadas com AD . Lobby Político http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-lobby Para trabalhar sobre propostas relacionadas com Politicas de Informação . Notícias GNU http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-noticiasgnu Repositório de algumas noticias que possam interessar ao movimento. Sitio onde os outros grupos poderão ir buscar informação genérica. . Discussão http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-discussao Onde são colocadas à discussão geral as ideias elaboradas pelos vários grupos. . Expediente Geral http://listas.ansol.org/pipermail/ansol-geral Para uma forma rápida de esclarecimento de quaisquer medidas ou acções da Direcção aos sócios. Para esclarecimentos. Outros objectivos a definir. ... e muitas outras sub-divisões que entendam ser úteis. Cada grupo deve ter pelo menos 3/4 pessoas, mas pode ter mais desde que seja para TRABALHAREM. Só assim penso que começaremos a ir para algum lado. Agora já existem temas suficientes que justifiquem, per-si, que se acabe com esta coisa de "tudo ó mólho e fé em Deus", ok. Quando as ideias/propostas passarem para a lista "Discussão" já vão bem delineadas e evitam-se muitas discussões e propostas sem fim e sem objectivo. Claro que os nomes podem ser outros. A Direcção é que decide nestas matérias. Como em tudo podemos fazer as coisas democráticamente mas tem de haver um timoneiro senão todos puxam para os lados e não saímos do lugar. Para os que possam achar que TUDO tem de ser decidido por maioria eu só digo que se era para termos tantas votações não tínhamos delegado poderes a uma Direcção. E com isto não digo que alguém tenha dito algo. É só para prevenir ;-)) E finalmente... que pensam da minha proposta? 1[], Lopo From villate arroba gnu.org Tue Apr 23 21:44:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Tue Apr 23 20:44:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Dossiers de ANSOL Message-ID: <20020423204310.S10060@fe.up.pt> Viva, Estive a trabalhar hoje nos dossiers: http://www.ansol.org/politica/eucd.pt.html Corrig=ED varios erros de XHTML que impediam que a vers=E3o HTML fosse ge= rada. Criei enlaces =E0s refer=EAncias no artigo e corrig=ED duas ou tr=EAs gre= lhas que descobr=ED. http://www.ansol.org/politica/formatos-livres.pt.html Escrev=ED mais alguns par=E1grafos sobre a import=E2ncia de usar formatos= de texto em vez de formatos gr=E1ficos, problemas dos formatos propriet=E1rios e p= atentes, e a import=E2ncia do registo hist=F3rico de vers=F5es. Proponho que seja = criada uma tabela no fim, com os formatos usados para documenta=E7=E3o, indicando qu= ais s=E3o livres e quais s=E3o formatos de texto. http://www.ansol.org/politica/index.html Inclu=ED enlaces para os dois dossiers que j=E1 existem e para os meus ar= tigos no JUP, que julgo bastante relevantes. Acho que 3 dossiers separados para fa= lar de institui=E7=F5es p=FAblicas, ensino p=FAblico e investiga=E7=E3o =E9 u= m pouco exagerado. Juntei os 3 em dois dossiers: o dossier das institui=E7=F5es p= =FAblicas pode j=E1 falar algo das escolas p=FAblicas e o dossier sobre o ensino ju= lgo que =E9 melhor se for geral (ensino p=FAblico e privado) e incluir investiga=E7=E3= o. Se os dois dossiers crescerem muito, podemos voltar a separar em 3. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Tue Apr 23 21:54:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Tue Apr 23 20:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DPara_acabar_de_vez_com_a_confus=E3o=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2E=2E?= In-Reply-To: <089401c1eac8$933b9980$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:12:13PM +0100 References: <089401c1eac8$933b9980$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020423205254.T10060@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:12:13PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Estive a dar uma vista de olhos na lista e uma preocupa=E7=E3o ressalto= u de > imediato. > S=E3o lan=E7adas imensas ideias sobre ac=E7=F5es e medidas e parece que= n=E3o se > avan=E7a concretamente para lado nenhum. Temos avan=E7ado muito. J=E1 temos bastantes documentos no CVS e v=E1rias= pessoas a trabalharem em ac=E7=F5es concretas. Mas =E9 verdade que s=E3o muitas as = ideias que ficam em aberto. > Acho que devemos criar desde j=E1 grupos de trabalho com listas de disc= uss=E3o > separadas. > Mas =E9 para trabalhar mesmo. Para criar processos. Para preparar propo= stas > concretas. Criar uma lista para cada grupo de trabalho parece-me exagerado. O que podiamos fazer para j=E1 era dividir ansol-geral em duas listas: uma de discuss=E3o, onde apareceriam as mensagens como "vejam l=E1 esta URL e op= inem" e uma segunda lista de trabalho, onde seriam discutidas ac=E7=F5es concre= tas em curso. > Cada grupo deve ter > pelo menos 3/4 pessoas, mas pode ter mais desde que seja para TRABALHAR= EM. Acho tamb=E9m importante que as pessoas que estejam perto geograficamente= tentem reunirem-se nem que seja para almo=E7arem juntos algum d=EDa; assim ser=E1= mais f=E1cil criar grupos de trabalho. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Tue Apr 23 22:07:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Tue Apr 23 21:07:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novo ataque de Bill Gates contra a GPL In-Reply-To: <1019553604.1300.35.camel@roque>; from rms@1407.org on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:20:04AM +0100 References: <3CC095F30008C15D@mail.libertysurf.net> <1019553604.1300.35.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020423210549.V10060@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:20:04AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Faltou ai a frase anterior que revela o verdadeiro ataque... nos EUA > ainda ha muito o fantasma do comunismo, o grande enimigo do capitalismo= , > e o Tio Gates esta a tentar associar a GNU GPL (reparem como a Microsof= t > subtilmente tenta sempre transforma o sentido da liberdade para o > sentido do acesso ao codigo fonte) aos anti-capitalistas (ie, > comunistas): >=20 > "One thing that we get people discussing with us a lot is how to create > jobs around IT activity. And I think you will see some countries who > really believe in the capitalistic approach; that is, that software > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > should generate jobs, and government R&D should generate jobs, so that > government R&D should be done on a basis that it can be commercialized. E aquilo da necessidade de criar mais postos de trabalho nos paises n=E3o desenvolvidos, dito por um "yanki", j=E1 n=E3o convence a ningu=E9m. Pelo= menos na America Latina as pessoas j=E1 sabem que mais vale criar menos emprego, e= m m=E3os dos nativos, do que milhares de postos para os cidad=E3os do pa=EDses ric= os. Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 24 00:45:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 23 23:45:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] Para acabar de vez com a confusão... References: <089401c1eac8$933b9980$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423205254.T10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <08e201c1eb17$a8780e60$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva Jaime, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaime E . Villate" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Cc: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Terça-feira, 23 de Abril de 2002 20:52 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Para acabar de vez com a confusão... On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:12:13PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >> Estive a dar uma vista de olhos na lista e uma preocupação ressaltou de >> imediato. >> São lançadas imensas ideias sobre acções e medidas e parece que não se >> avança concretamente para lado nenhum. > Temos avançado muito. Já temos bastantes documentos no CVS e várias pessoas a > trabalharem em acções concretas. Mas é verdade que são muitas as ideias que > ficam em aberto. Eu sei que se tem feito já muita coisa. O que eu queria referir é a confusão de emails que se está a gerar. As coisas começam a dispersar-se e às tantas são sempre os mesmos a trabalhar. Assim com a divisão as pessoas podiam orientar mais a sua vontade. >> Acho que devemos criar desde já grupos de trabalho com listas de discussão >> separadas. >> Mas é para trabalhar mesmo. Para criar processos. Para preparar propostas >> concretas. > Criar uma lista para cada grupo de trabalho parece-me exagerado. O que > podiamos fazer para já era dividir ansol-geral em duas listas: uma de > discussão, onde apareceriam as mensagens como "vejam lá esta URL e opinem" > e uma segunda lista de trabalho, onde seriam discutidas acções concretas em > curso. Eu até estava a ter outra ideia. Porque não manter uma lista para discussão geral como está e criar um Forum mais WEB-based para os trabalhos. Eu por mim já me aconteceu ter apagado emails da lista que queria responder e depois ficar "lixado" porque o sistema não o permite. Além de que este sistema também acaba por criar uma dispersão de "threads" não achas? O devBB (http://www.mybboard.com) está muito bonzinho e eu posso dar uma ajuda a instalar e configurar um com o mínimo de "mariquices". Eu ando já há algum tempo a fazer um "Add-on" que permita que os membros registados possam "receber/comentar/criar novos" items no forum através do email (assim uma espécie de MailMan mas mais bonito e com o aproveitamento das potencialidades de um verdadeiro webforum). Tu até podias fazer-me o favor de vêr o que acontece em termos de usabilidade com o Linx em http://www.mybboard.com/demo/ . Obrigado. ;-) >> Cada grupo deve ter >> pelo menos 3/4 pessoas, mas pode ter mais desde que seja para TRABALHAREM. > Acho também importante que as pessoas que estejam perto geograficamente tentem > reunirem-se nem que seja para almoçarem juntos algum día; assim será mais > fácil criar grupos de trabalho. Também acho. Quem mora para os lados da Margem Sul? 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 24 01:31:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 24 00:31:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novo ataque de Bill Gates contra a GPL References: <3CC095F30008C15D@mail.libertysurf.net> <1019553604.1300.35.camel@roque> <20020423210549.V10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <001901c1eb1e$0f1d28c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Aliás, o que se tem mais visto é que os países e zonas mais pobres estão a investir no Linux e no Software Livre/Open Source com o objectivo de reduzir custos de licença e aumentar a capacidade de resolução/desenvolvimento in-house dos seus problemas de processamento da informação. Fazer in-house e gastar menos dinheiro com licenças nunca me pareceu que fizesse reduzir o nível de emprego localmente. O que realmente preocupa os Americanos é o facto de FINALMENTE os Europeus (e os outros povos todos atrás) se estarem a libertar da canga tecnológica que os acompanha desde o sr. Thomas Edison e outros grandes inventores pré e pós Grandes Guerras que imigraram para os EUA. É bom não esquecer que o grande desenvolvimento bélico actual dos Americanos se deve a emigrados europeus... e grande parte do restante também. A culpa é também e em grande parte dos europeus que não soube (e acho que continua sem saber) conter a hemorregia intelectual que se escapa anualmente para os EUA. 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaime E . Villate" To: Sent: Terça-feira, 23 de Abril de 2002 21:05 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]Novo ataque de Bill Gates contra a GPL On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 10:20:04AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Faltou ai a frase anterior que revela o verdadeiro ataque... nos EUA > ainda ha muito o fantasma do comunismo, o grande enimigo do capitalismo, > e o Tio Gates esta a tentar associar a GNU GPL (reparem como a Microsoft > subtilmente tenta sempre transforma o sentido da liberdade para o > sentido do acesso ao codigo fonte) aos anti-capitalistas (ie, > comunistas): > > "One thing that we get people discussing with us a lot is how to create > jobs around IT activity. And I think you will see some countries who > really believe in the capitalistic approach; that is, that software > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > should generate jobs, and government R&D should generate jobs, so that > government R&D should be done on a basis that it can be commercialized. E aquilo da necessidade de criar mais postos de trabalho nos paises não desenvolvidos, dito por um "yanki", já não convence a ninguém. Pelo menos na America Latina as pessoas já sabem que mais vale criar menos emprego, em mãos dos nativos, do que milhares de postos para os cidadãos do países ricos. Jaime From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 24 05:35:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 24 04:35:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Dossiers de ANSOL In-Reply-To: <20020423204310.S10060@fe.up.pt> References: <20020423204310.S10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <1019618884.3954.5.camel@jung> Viva, On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 20:43, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > Viva, >=20 > Estive a trabalhar hoje nos dossiers: Parab=E9ns. Bom trabalho. > http://www.ansol.org/politica/eucd.pt.html > Corrig=ED varios erros de XHTML que impediam que a vers=E3o HTML fosse ge= rada. > Criei enlaces =E0s refer=EAncias no artigo e corrig=ED duas ou tr=EAs gre= lhas que > descobr=ED. Grelhas? Eheheh. > Juntei os 3 em dois dossiers: o dossier das institui=E7=F5es p=FAblicas > pode j=E1 falar algo das escolas p=FAblicas e o dossier sobre o ensino ju= lgo que =E9 > melhor se for geral (ensino p=FAblico e privado) e incluir investiga=E7= =E3o. > Se os dois dossiers crescerem muito, podemos voltar a separar em 3. Parece-me boa ideia. Em rela=E7=E3o =E0 separa=E7=E3o das listas, vou mais pela ideia do jaime. = Uma lista de discuss=E3o e outra de trabalho. Isto tem andado muito apertado aqui para os meus lados. O Inox no Tivoli d=E1-me de trabalhar umas 3 vezes por semana, est=E1 na altura dos trabalho= s e das frequ=EAncias... Isto n=E3o anda nada f=E1cil. A ver se dou mais umas contribui=E7=F5es no fim-de-semana. Obrigado Jaime. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 24 09:02:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 24 08:02:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:54:35PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:54:35PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > =C9! Afinal os ******** ainda n=E3o mudaram a sua atitude. >=20 > Ainda andei aqui =E0 procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com es= te > assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas n=E3o en= contrei > nada. J=E1 era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( Por isso =E9 que a linha do copyright =E9 muito importante. Se a vers=E3o= 1 do software dizia algo como: Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se lhes= apetecer. Se houve alguma contribui=E7=E3o significativa de algum volunt=E1rio que = n=E3o trabalhe para a Bug Software, ent=E3o este pode pedir que a sua parte n=E3= o seja usada na vers=E3o 2, a menos que tenha cedido o seu copyright =E0 Bug Sof= tware. Quando contribuimos em algum projecto de software livre conv=E9m examinar= a licen=E7a e as notas de copyright para evitar problemas, como o problema = que tiveram os voluntarios de blackdown.org, que trabalhavam num projecto liv= re que a SUN decidiu tornar proprietario. O que n=E3o podem fazer =E9 impedir que as pessoas continuem a usar e des= envolver livremente a vers=E3o 1 que j=E1 tenha sido distribuida. Mas a carta que = envias n=E3o parece indicar que seja isso o que a Bug Software pretende fazer. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 24 09:02:10 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Wed Apr 24 08:02:10 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <006001c1eab8$60fa8f40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:11:21PM +0100 References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <3CC4B48B.5E2FE636@explicacoes.com> <006001c1eab8$60fa8f40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020423213243.X10060@fe.up.pt> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:11:21PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Mais! Eu at=E9 mandei um email para a FSF e a resposta foi muito ambigu= a e > fez-me v=EAr o que tenho dito j=E1 nesta lista =E9 realidade. Espero qu= e > entretanto eles tenham mudado de estilo. A menos que tenhas escrito directamente ao presidente, vice-presidente ou advogado da FSF, o teu pedido pode ter sido respondido por algum dos voluntarios que, como eu, tentamos ajudar =E0 FSF mas n=E3o temos a mesma autoridade para dar boas respostas. > SER=C1 QUE A FSF VAI DEFENDER (OU AJUDAR) TODOS OU S=D3 OS = GRANDES >=20 > Sim! Porque a MySQL AB n=E3o =E9 pr=F3priamente o Lopo ou o Jo=E3o, n=E3= o =E9 verdade? MySQL AB foi ajudada n=E3o por ser grande, mas por ter cedido previamente= o seu copyright =E0 FSF. Se tu ou o Jo=E3o seguirem o tr=E1mite legal para cede= r o vosso copyright =E0 FSF, podes ter a certeza que ser=E3o defendidos na mesma forma. Quando a FSF n=E3o =E9 o "copyright holder" o seu advogado n=E3o p= ode fazer nada. > Esperemos que o tempo n=E3o me d=EA raz=E3o e a FSF n=E3o se demonstre = ser uma > organiza=E7=E3o de defesa das GRANDES MULTINACIONAIS, que embora do Sof= tware > Livre, n=E3o deixam de o ser. Em varios casos a FSF j=E1 defendeu indiv=EDduos ou grupos pequenos. O que acontece =E9 que sempre tentam resolver o assunto amigave= lmente e sem o tornar p=FAblico. Neste caso o dinheiro em jogo era muito e por i= sso o infractor recusou uma solu=E7=E3o amig=E1vel e julgo poder contratar um a= dvogado suficientemente bom para ganhar o caso. Jaime From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Wed Apr 24 13:26:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Wed Apr 24 12:26:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <20020423213243.X10060@fe.up.pt>; from villate@gnu.org on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:32:43PM +0100 References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <3CC4B48B.5E2FE636@explicacoes.com> <006001c1eab8$60fa8f40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423213243.X10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <20020424122233.A12142@nsk.yi.org> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:32:43PM +0100, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > > SER=C1 QUE A FSF VAI DEFENDER (OU AJUDAR) TODOS OU S=D3 O= S GRANDES > >=20 > > Sim! Porque a MySQL AB n=E3o =E9 pr=F3priamente o Lopo ou o Jo=E3o, n= =E3o =E9 verdade? >=20 > MySQL AB foi ajudada n=E3o por ser grande, mas por ter cedido previamen= te o seu > copyright =E0 FSF. Se tu ou o Jo=E3o seguirem o tr=E1mite legal para ce= der o vosso > copyright =E0 FSF, podes ter a certeza que ser=E3o defendidos na mesma > forma. Quando a FSF n=E3o =E9 o "copyright holder" o seu advogado n=E3o= pode > fazer nada. Nada disso: "The Free Software Foundation's chief legal counsel, Eben Moglen, is set = to provide expert testimony in a hearing ... That's a "garden variety" violation of the GPL, Moglen says. Additionally, "We don't expect to have any problem enforcing the GPL in this situation," says Bradley Kuhn, FSF's vice president. Normally, he says, the Free Software Foundation conducts private enforcement of GPL violations on software that it holds the copyright on. In this case, MySQ= L retains the copyright on its GPLed apps, and the FSF is simply providing expert testimony in what is expected to be an easily-gained temporary injunction against the further distribution of NuSphere's version of MySQL. " Cumps Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Wed Apr 24 13:37:02 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Wed Apr 24 12:37:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Foruns (oops, fora) Message-ID: <20020424113124.GB25852@artenumerica.com> * Lopo de Almeida [2002-04-23 23:33 +0000]: > Eu até estava a ter outra ideia. Porque não manter uma lista para discussão > geral como está e criar um Forum mais WEB-based para os trabalhos. Se houver interesse em usar um sistema de forum, devo poder ajudar. Estou a acabar de preparar um para um cliente e talvez seja interessante para a ANSOL, mesmo com poucas ou nenhumas alteracoes. Comecei por tentar usar o Squishdot (que ja' tinha usado em dois casos anteriores), mas fartei-me dos bugs e outras "manias" dele e decidi fazer um sistema de forum "from scratch", tambem sobre Zope. O esquema geral de funcionamento imita em boa parte o Slash e outros do genero. Caracteristicas basicas: - Todas as contribuicoes sao "mensagens". Uma mensagem tem titulo, introducao e desenvolvimento (opcional). Cada mensagem pode ter anexado um numero arbitrario de attachments (ficheiros de que se faz upload com o mesmo formulario usado para introduzir a mensagem). Os editores podem acrescentar notas (visiveis ao publico ou apenas a outros editores). - Os participantes podem enviar mensagens ou como resposta a mensagens existentes ou como propostas de "artigo". - Um artigo publicado distingue-se das outras mensagens por aparecer na pagina de entrada, como os artigos do Slashdot e do Gildot. Qualquer mensagem (proposta por um leitor para artigo ou inserida antes como resposta a outra) pode ser promovida a "artigo publicado" por um editor (participante com autorizacao de administracao). Pode ainda ter uma nota introdutoria do editor. - Cada mensagem pode ser classificada como associada com um numero arbitrario de "topicos", que podem ir sendo definidos e redefinidos dinamicamente. Os topicos sao criados por editores, e quem escreve cada mensagem decide os topicos dela (quando e'uma resposta, por omissao sao os mesmos topicos da "mensagem mae"). - Os utilizadores podem escrever anonimamente (isto e', nao registados, tendo no entanto a hipotese de inserir um nome) ou entrar registados (o username e'o endereco de email, mas este pode ser escondido do publico se o utilizador preferir). - Todas as mensagens (attachments tambem) e topicos e informacoes dos utilizadores sao guardados em base de dados relacional (MySQL, tabelas InnoDB). - Na apresentacao (desenvolvida) de uma mensagem, os attachments em HTML ou texto simples aparecem logo a seguir ao texto da mensagem. Outros tipos de attachments podem ser acedidos seguindo o link para eles. - Todo o HTML submetido (introducao, desenvolvimento, attachments) e' passado pelo `tidy' para "limpar" o markup (produto final: XHTML). Muito em breve quero acrescentar filtragem de tags perigosas (talvez com o código preparado pelo autor do Squish). - Todas as queries SQL sao feitas atraves de ZSQL methods do Zope, com quoting em todos os parametros de input (evitando a entrada de queries maliciosas com "truques" de SQL no conteudo dos dados), e os ZSQL methods nao sao directamente invocaveis do exterior (apenas pelos scripts de apresentacao e administracao). Em termos de seguranca, provavelmente sera' dificil repetir a carreira esburacada do PHP-Nuke... Essencialmente e' isto... A coisa nao esta' num estado "simpatico" de "pronto a instalar" por qualquer pessoa (nem o codigo preparado da forma mais limpa e "object oriented" que seria possivel no Zope), mas por outro lado e' bem mais simples (acho) que o Slash e talvez outros, certamente mais facil de perceber que o caos de DTML do Squish (desta vez usei principalmente Python Scripts e Zope Page Templates). No estado actual nao tinha pensado ainda em termos de uma "release" ao publico (mais por ser ainda "feito à medida" e nao algo "install and play" como o Squish), mas nao temos (AN) qualquer problema em libertar o codigo que ja'existe (nada de especial, vejo aquilo como Lego montado com outras ferramentas) com licenca GPL. Ainda esta semana arranca o primeiro forum que usa isto, e tentarei colocar outra "instancia" dele num computador da AN para poderem testar `a vontade. Logo que esteja acessivel, aviso. Como a coisa esta' "acabadinha" de fazer, o momento e'propicio a alteracoes "por medida" de acordo com as necessidades da ANSOL... e montada a coisa, qualquer um podera' dar sugestoes sobre alteracoes ao codigo. Se a ANSOL estiver interessada em usa'-lo, a solucao mais simples para mim a curto prazo e' instala'-lo numa maquina nossa, para onde podem apontar um qualquercoisa.ansol.org, e mais tarde, se preferirem, migrar para um computador da ANSOL (como esta' a questao do alojamento?). Supondo que irao usar ou usam Debian no servidor ANSOL, isso ainda torna mais facil a migracao, ja' que tambem usamos Debian everywhere. (embora o Zope eu tenha preferido ate' agora instalar "manualmente"). Costumo colocar o Zope por detras do Apache (funcionando como "reverse proxy"), pelo que nao ha' qualquer problema de coexistencia com conteudo "estatico" ou outros servicos invocados via Apache. Pode naturalmente ficar em "subdirectorio" de outro sitio WWW ou com hostname independente. That's all... Logo que tenha instancias do bicho (still nameless) online (no maximo ate' ao fim da semana), aviso para verem se acham aquilo util como ferramenta. Com algum jeito ate' se pode acoplar de alguma forma a uma lista de email e sabe-se la' mais o que... TTFN JM From villate arroba gnu.org Wed Apr 24 15:49:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E. Villate) Date: Wed Apr 24 14:49:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <20020424122233.A12142@nsk.yi.org>; from strange@nsk.yi.org on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:22:33PM +0100 References: <003301c1ea4d$cf09ec80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <007d01c1ea59$49b6f300$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <3CC4B48B.5E2FE636@explicacoes.com> <006001c1eab8$60fa8f40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423213243.X10060@fe.up.pt> <20020424122233.A12142@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <20020424144822.B20214@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 12:22:33PM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha w= rote: > Nada disso: > "The Free Software Foundation's chief legal counsel, Eben Moglen, is se= t to > provide expert testimony in a hearing ... >=20 > That's a "garden variety" violation of the GPL, Moglen says. > Additionally, "We don't expect to have any problem enforcing the GPL i= n > this situation," says Bradley Kuhn, FSF's vice president. Normally, he > says, the Free Software Foundation conducts private enforcement of GPL > violations on software that it holds the copyright on. In this case, My= SQL > retains the copyright on its GPLed apps, and the FSF is simply providin= g > expert testimony in what is expected to be an easily-gained temporary > injunction against the further distribution of NuSphere's version of > MySQL. > " Oops, tens toda a raz=E3o. Eu pr=F3prio j=E1 fiz a tradu=E7=E3o do par=E1= grafo que acavas de citar (http://barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=3D02/02/27/1024227), o qua= l indica que estou mesmo a precisar de descansar um bocado nesta ponte :-) Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Wed Apr 24 17:05:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Wed Apr 24 16:05:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Foruns (oops, fora) Message-ID: <008601c1eba0$98ac2dc0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva JM, O que tu estás a falar é de um género de Weblog como o phpNuke, SlashDot e quejandos. Aqui fica outro interessante que podia ser convenientemente adaptado para gerir o site da ANSOL. Tem pelo menos alguns Add-ons interessantes e usa XML: Wiki Type Framework 0.17 (Default) http://freshmeat.net/releases/81986/ WTF (Wiki Type Framework) is a generic Web content management engine which allows you to easily manage Web documents, access rights, and document history. It is based around the KISS principles of the WikiWikiWeb. WTF consists of documents made up of generic XML content blocks that can contain plain text, XML markup, or PHP code executed at runtime. It thus allows the framework to be built up to fit most Web content needs. O Jaime Villate fez qualquer coisa relacionada com Wiki, ou é impressão minha? -------------------- Mas o que eu estava a falar era de um forum "puro e duro" e não um Weblog ;-) devBB - http://www.mybboard.com XMB - http://www.xmbforum.com iAMB - http://coopermcgregor.com/products/iamb/ (mais "duro" que o anterior) mwForum - http://www.mawic.de/mwforum/ O que eu sei mexer melhor é o devBB. Falta é o tal Add-On para os emails :-( O último é potencialmente o melhor porque JÁ TEM um Add-On que permite receber posts via email ;-) Mais Fora (finalmente alguém que usa o termo certo, isto é latim. Obrigado JM): http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=forum§ion=projects&filter=15 1, Lopo From figueira arroba europe.com Wed Apr 24 20:33:01 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Wed Apr 24 19:33:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> Viva, On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 22:01, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > Por isso =E9 que a linha do copyright =E9 muito importante. Se a vers=E3o= 1 do > software dizia algo como: > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software >=20 > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se lhes= apetecer. Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na vers= =E3o 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres. N=E3o =E9?! --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Wed Apr 24 21:06:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Wed Apr 24 20:06:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung>; from figueira@europe.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:26:03PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020424200243.A27370@nsk.yi.org> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:26:03PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 22:01, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > > Por isso =E9 que a linha do copyright =E9 muito importante. Se a vers= =E3o 1 do > > software dizia algo como: > > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software > >=20 > > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se = lhes apetecer. >=20 > Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na ve= rs=E3o > 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres. Andas fora de contexto. Como o Bug Software =E9 a *=FAnica* detentora de direitos de copyright sobre o software, pode e tem o direito de tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria (assim como a vers=E3o 1 ou partes do software). Cumps --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Wed Apr 24 21:14:01 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Wed Apr 24 20:14:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3CC702A4.461909FF@explicacoes.com> Vasco Figueira wrote: > > Viva, > > On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 22:01, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > > Por isso é que a linha do copyright é muito importante. Se a versão 1 do > > software dizia algo como: > > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software > > > > então têm todo o direito a tornar a versão 2 proprietária se lhes apetecer. > > Apenas se nenhum código da versão 1 (que era livre) for usado na versão > 2. De outro modo as alterações (a versão 2) têm de ser livres. > > Não é?! Nope. O detentor do copyright pode publicar o mesmo código sob qualquer licença a qualquer momento. Ou seja: Eu escrevo a versão 1. Publico-a sob GPL. Passado 6 meses posso: - publicar a versão 1 sob outra licença qualquer. Claro que quem acedeu à versão 1 sob GPL continua a ter direito a usá-la sob GPL. - alterar a versão 1 e publicar uma versão 2 sob outra licença. Quem acedeu à versão 1 sob GPL continua a ter direito a usá-la sob GPL. Mas só o detentor do copyright é que pode fazer com ele o que entender. Todos os outros são obrigados a respeitar a licença. Isto pode ficar mais confuso se o copyright for partilhado por várias pessoas, como quando o autor original recebe contribuições de outros autores. Nesse caso, o autor original só pode tornar proprietária a sua parte. Joao http://www.nonio.com From joao arroba silvaneves.org Wed Apr 24 23:40:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Wed Apr 24 22:40:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019684054.486.183.camel@central> --=-tX6IfFWu2qLOniXmUgKb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Ter, 2002-04-23 at 12:54, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ainda andei aqui =E0 procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com este > assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas n=E3o enco= ntrei > nada. J=E1 era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( >=20 Eles n=E3o fizeram nada de ilegal. Nada os obriga a distribuir a vers=E3o d= e Software Livre. O que eles n=E3o podem =E9 proibir-te de distribuires a vers=E3o de Software Livre. Se eles det=EAm o direito de autor sobre o software NADA os impede de distribuirem o software como propriet=E1rio. =C9 por isso que deves ficar sempre com uma c=F3pia do c=F3digo dos programas de Software Livre que usas (pode parecer paranoia, mas acontece ser preciso). De resto eles n=E3o fizeram nada de legalmente errado. Do ponto de vista =E9tico a situa=E7=E3o pode ser outra. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-tX6IfFWu2qLOniXmUgKb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xyTWGFkMfesLN9wRAi+xAJ9nzv19QlUBcet56l4nCW9MpNiIcwCfcqBb iqAldlhvjATGqzs/9G5OpZI= =iuAC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-tX6IfFWu2qLOniXmUgKb-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Wed Apr 24 23:41:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Wed Apr 24 22:41:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Eu gosto mais desta... Message-ID: <1019684127.486.185.camel@central> --=-naCE4Oc7GS8vGMYOqmWK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Ter, 2002-04-23 at 01:46, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Em portugal (que aparentemente t=EAm o sistema de direitos de autor da eu= ropa=20 > mais americanizado) n=E3o existe sequer a cl=E1usula de "fair use", pois = esta foi=20 > criada por precedente nos USA... >=20 Erro. Artigo 189=BA "Utiliza=E7=F5es Livres": 1- A protec=E7=E3o concedida neste t=EDtulo n=E3o abrange: a) O uso privado; b) Os excertos de uma presta=E7=E3o, um fonograma, um videograma ou uma emiss=E3o de radiodifus=E3o, contanto que o recurso a esses excertos se justifique por prop=F3sito de informa=E7=E3o ou cr=EDtica ou qualquer outro= dos que autorizam as cita=E7=F5es ou resumos referidos na al=EDnea f) do artigo 75=BA; c) A utiliza=E7=E3o destinada a fins exclusivamente cient=EDficos ou pedag=F3gicos; d) A fixa=E7=E3o ef=E9mera feita por organismo de radiodifus=E3o; e) As fixa=E7=F5es ou reprodu=E7=F5es realizadas por entes p=FAblicos ou concession=E1rios de servi=E7os p=FAblicos por algum interesse excepcional = de documenta=E7=E3o ou para arquivo; f) Os demais casos em que a utiliza=E7=E3o da obra =E9 l=EDcita sem o consentimento do autor. 2- A protec=E7=E3o outorgada neste cap=EDtulo ao artista n=E3o abrange a presta=E7=E3o decorrente do exerc=EDcio de dever funcional ou de contrato d= e trabalho.=20 > Pelo que um contracto como o GPL pode ser at=E9 contr=E1rio =E1s leis vig= entes... >=20 A GPL N=C3O =C9 UM CONTRATO. =C9 uma licen=E7a de direitos de autor. =C9 completamente diferente. > Precisamos de um advogado e que simpatize com a nossa causa. >=20 Eu preferia um professor de direito. Um advogado vai concordar sempre connosco. Eu tenho um tio-av=F4 que para evitar esse problema apresenta sempre a um advogado o caso da outra parte e eles depois admiram-se quando ele se vai embora depois de lhe garantirem que ele vai ganhar o caso. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-naCE4Oc7GS8vGMYOqmWK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xyUfGFkMfesLN9wRAjVZAJ94FFYC+wT96r/NnkmeFtyvi2iqogCghkFO RWsbaYqxqqh5NJOK18JsDzo= =85GM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-naCE4Oc7GS8vGMYOqmWK-- From vd arroba paradigma.co.pt Wed Apr 24 23:53:01 2002 From: vd arroba paradigma.co.pt (Vitor Domingos) Date: Wed Apr 24 22:53:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Eu gosto mais desta... In-Reply-To: <1019684127.486.185.camel@central> References: <1019684127.486.185.camel@central> Message-ID: <20020424224716.79d1426e.vd@paradigma.co.pt> On 24 Apr 2002 22:35:27 +0100 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves wrote: > Eu preferia um professor de direito. Por incrivel que pareca, eu tambem :) Alguem ligado 'as lides das faculdades. Vou tentar entrar em contacto (leia-se mandar email ;) ) durante este fim= de semana perlongado. ----=20 Cumprimentos, Vitor Domingos --------------- "Imagination is more important than knowledge." From joao arroba silvaneves.org Thu Apr 25 00:01:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Wed Apr 24 23:01:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Eu gosto mais desta... In-Reply-To: <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> Message-ID: <1019685284.510.3.camel@central> --=-O9dA80qV2TRMv+5OEt4k Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qua, 2002-04-24 at 19:26, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 22:01, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > > Por isso =E9 que a linha do copyright =E9 muito importante. Se a vers= =E3o 1 do > > software dizia algo como: > > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software > >=20 > > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se lh= es apetecer. >=20 > Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na vers= =E3o > 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres. >=20 > N=E3o =E9?! N=E3o. Uma licen=E7a de direitos de autor =E9 uma redu=E7=E3o das limita=E7= =F5es definidas pelo c=F3digo de direitos de autor. Esta licen=E7a =E9 definida p= elo detentor do direito de autor, independentemente das licen=E7as que tenha usado antes para distribuir o direito de autor. O caso muda de figura se eles usaram c=F3digo a que tiveram acesso gra=E7as =E0 GPL ou outra licen=E7a de copyleft. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-O9dA80qV2TRMv+5OEt4k Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8xymRGFkMfesLN9wRAhPVAJ9sloPdYpPcBO4qmEkMbn8E3mw2+ACfZUkq eO0EZhKExC9na6Dgy+xbOzE= =YOxy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-O9dA80qV2TRMv+5OEt4k-- From sitaar arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 01:00:02 2002 From: sitaar arroba sitaar.com (sitaar!COM) Date: Thu Apr 25 00:00:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Nat Friedman talks of Ximian, Gnome, and Red Carpet Message-ID: <003c01c1eb8a$0297c6c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Nat Friedman talks of Ximian, Gnome, and Red Carpet http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/22/1327241 [0]Nat Friedman often seems to live in the shadow of his famous coworker, [1]Miguel de Icaza, but today it's his turn to shine. You asked Nat questions last week. This week he answers, in detail, with lots of links, touching on subjects ranging from Gnome's future directions to how Microsoft is dealing with Linux as a competitor to Windows. Links 0. http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=Nat+Friedman&op=stories&author=&topic=&s ection=&sort=1 1. http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=Miguel+de+Icaza&op=stories&author=&topic =§ion=&sort=1 From tozevv arroba rnl.ist.utl.pt Thu Apr 25 01:00:09 2002 From: tozevv arroba rnl.ist.utl.pt (António Vieira) Date: Thu Apr 25 00:00:09 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] Python em Português In-Reply-To: <20020424113124.GB25852@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: Olá! Uma das linguagens preferidas do pessoal do Software Livre tem agora um livro em Português de Portugal: Python Curso Completo Pedro Morais, José Nuno Pires, FCA O livro tem um nível muito bom (só estou a dizer isto porque os Autores são leitores assíduos desta lista ;-) Fora de brincadeiras, parece-me ser um contributo muito positivo para o ensino e divulgação do Python a nível nacional. Falando um pouco do livro, cobre um largo espectro de áreas, deste o scripting básico, programação OO em Python, computação em redes, Zope, Interfaces Gráficas e até integração com sistemas legados! É um tudo em 1 (típico da colecção da FCA), óptimo para uma abordagem introdutória à linguagem, tanto para Guru's como para noviços nestas coisas do desenvolvimento de Software. Recomendo! -- Tó-Zé 'Senador' Vieira From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 01:54:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 00:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]A protecção real do GPL :-( References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <003d01c1ebea$6e6e94e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva Jaime, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaime E . Villate" To: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Terça-feira, 23 de Abril de 2002 22:01 Subject: Re: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:54:35PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >> É! Afinal os ******** ainda não mudaram a sua atitude. >> >> Ainda andei aqui à procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com este >> assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas não encontrei >> nada. Já era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( > Por isso é que a linha do copyright é muito importante. Se a versão 1 do > software dizia algo como: > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software > então têm todo o direito a tornar a versão 2 proprietária se lhes apetecer. > Se houve alguma contribuição significativa de algum voluntário que não > trabalhe para a Bug Software, então este pode pedir que a sua parte não seja > usada na versão 2, a menos que tenha cedido o seu copyright à Bug Software. > Quando contribuimos em algum projecto de software livre convém examinar a > licença e as notas de copyright para evitar problemas, como o problema que > tiveram os voluntarios de blackdown.org, que trabalhavam num projecto livre > que a SUN decidiu tornar proprietario. > O que não podem fazer é impedir que as pessoas continuem a usar e desenvolver > livremente a versão 1 que já tenha sido distribuida. Mas a carta que envias > não parece indicar que seja isso o que a Bug Software pretende fazer. Viva Jaime, É precisamente neste teu último parágrafo que está a problemática e a minha reclamação. Eles podiam fazer sim-senhor uma versão proprietária a partir da versão X e eu nem contestei isso. Não leste bem a resposta. Os ******* da Bug retiraram TUDO do site. Não está lá nenhuma versão GPL e o que eles dizem é espantoso. Deixaram de ceder a aplicação (começaram por deixar de ter download e deixar de dar acesso ao CVS, só mais tarde é que eliminaram por completo o texto da GPL do site) a quem quer que seja se não pagassem. Desculpa que me deram noutra vez é de que "QUASE todo o desenvolvimento foi feito pela Bug Software e por isso não viam a necessidade de continuar como GPL". Ou seja, em português corrente, o que os ********* queriam era programadores à borla e como não tiveram na quantidade desejada "toca de apagar essa coisa do GPL". Primeiro suavemente e depois como as reclamações foram poucas (se calhar só a minha como rapaz algo esclarecido) a toda a brida. Não podem. A lei é para cumprir. Tudo o que desenvolveram com a licença GPL tem de ficar público e é isso que eu gostava de vêr acontecer. Porque o Software Livre não é só os GRANDES. A maior parte é mesmo os PEQUENOS e se ninguém olhar por eles então isto acaba por ser uma farsa. Desculpa o azedume mas eu hoje estou um bocado cansado. 1, Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 01:57:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 00:57:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019684054.486.183.camel@central> Message-ID: <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> ----- Original Message ----- From: "João Miguel Neves" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Cc: Sent: Quarta-feira, 24 de Abril de 2002 22:34 Subject: Re: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case On Ter, 2002-04-23 at 12:54, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >> Ainda andei aqui à procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com este >> assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas não encontrei >> nada. Já era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( >> > > Eles não fizeram nada de ilegal. Nada os obriga a distribuir a versão de > Software Livre. O que eles não podem é proibir-te de distribuires a > versão de Software Livre. > > Se eles detêm o direito de autor sobre o software NADA os impede de > distribuirem o software como proprietário. É por isso que deves ficar > sempre com uma cópia do código dos programas de Software Livre que usas > (pode parecer paranoia, mas acontece ser preciso). > > De resto eles não fizeram nada de legalmente errado. Do ponto de vista > ético a situação pode ser outra. > -- > João Miguel Neves Queres tu então dizer que eles (ou qualquer um) podem por o Software como GPL até que chega a uma fase que acham que já não precisam de ninguém e toca a andar?! Não foi essa ideia com que fiquei ao lêr a Licença GPL, mas a ser verdade é mesmo uma farsa. Desculpa lá o mau jeito mas vais ter de me explicar melhor isso. 1, Lopo From aife arroba netvisao.pt Thu Apr 25 01:59:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-1?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Thu Apr 25 00:59:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Eu gosto mais desta... In-Reply-To: <20020424224716.79d1426e.vd@paradigma.co.pt> References: <1019684127.486.185.camel@central> <20020424224716.79d1426e.vd@paradigma.co.pt> Message-ID: Em Quarta, 24 de Abril de 2002 22:47, escreveste: > On 24 Apr 2002 22:35:27 +0100 > > João Miguel Neves wrote: > > Eu preferia um professor de direito. > > Por incrivel que pareca, eu tambem :) > > Alguem ligado 'as lides das faculdades. > > Vou tentar entrar em contacto (leia-se mandar email ;) ) durante este fim > de semana perlongado. > Também concordo. mas talvez seja bom ter cuidado com qual a faculdade que se escolhe. As faculdades de direito têm informalmente orientações políticas e lobbies específicos. A faculdade de direito de lisboa, por exemplo, está ligada ao PSD. (O que é óbvio no actual governo de 2 engºs agronomos e o resto de advogados...) lado positivo: O que pode ser bom para chamar a atenção e pôr a coscuvilhice a funcionar. Dando importância á nossa causa. lado negativo: As resposta é que poderão ser mais ou menos obfuscadas conforme os intereses das pessoas com quem falarmos. ------ Mas falando em termos mais latos. Eu aproveitei bastante esta discussão, porque pude ver que muitas das minhas ídeias da legislação e licenças estavam erradas ou confusas. Creio que a confusão ainda é maior na maioria das pessoas, externas a esta temática, e que se tornaria necessário criar uma FAQ ou HOWTO sobre o assunto. Será que se pode aproveitar algum do material desenvolvido para o lobbying? Eu posso começar a FAQ. ------- Um abraço para voçês todos, e desejando-vos amanhã um bom feriado. Comemorem a liberdade!!! Aqui em Aveiro, o 25 de Abril é desprezado pelas instituições (tb para a Paulette ter os votos que teve por aqui...) O que se passou em França, com a passagem do Le Pen á 2ªvolta, fez-me lembrar o maldito referendo do aborto, em que atravessei metade do país para depositar o meu voto e ser desperdiçado por causa dos banhos dos outros... Gela o sangue... No entanto, não esqueçamos as palavras de Thomas Jefferson: " A liberdade trás consigo um preço, o da vigilânçia eterna" De um homem livre, André Esteves P.S-> Acerca do concurso do logotipo, como ninguém avançou com a página, eu vou tratar disso. Gostava de sugerir, substituir o actual logotipo na página com um ponto de interrogação com um link para a página de concurso... Tenho autorização? From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 02:13:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 01:13:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: Eu gosto ... References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> Message-ID: <008c01c1ebed$2721fd40$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Uma coisinha que ficou esquecida :-) O site do producto em causa é http://www.bug-mall.org e se a ANSOL entrar, porventura, em contacto com os ditos senhores podem referir os emails que eu já enviei para a lista. 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaime E . Villate" To: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Terça-feira, 23 de Abril de 2002 22:01 Subject: Re: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case (...) Quando contribuimos em algum projecto de software livre convém examinar a licença e as notas de copyright para evitar problemas, como o problema que tiveram os voluntarios de blackdown.org, que trabalhavam num projecto livre que a SUN decidiu tornar proprietario. O que não podem fazer é impedir que as pessoas continuem a usar e desenvolver livremente a versão 1 que já tenha sido distribuida. Mas a carta que envias não parece indicar que seja isso o que a Bug Software pretende fazer. Jaime From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 25 02:16:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 25 01:16:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019684054.486.183.camel@central> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019693401.1315.14.camel@roque> --=-XKYHBUPUNQxsuaC2l+zm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 00:51, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > From: "Jo=E3o Miguel Neves" > > Se eles det=EAm o direito de autor sobre o software NADA os impede de > > distribuirem o software como propriet=E1rio. =C9 por isso que deves fic= ar > > sempre com uma c=F3pia do c=F3digo dos programas de Software Livre que = usas > > (pode parecer paranoia, mas acontece ser preciso). > Queres tu ent=E3o dizer que eles (ou qualquer um) podem por o Software co= mo > GPL at=E9 que chega a uma fase que acham que j=E1 n=E3o precisam de ningu= =E9m e toca > a andar?! Ok, que parte, exactamente, de "Se eles deteem o direito de autor sobre o software" e que nao entendeste? > N=E3o foi essa ideia com que fiquei ao l=EAr a Licen=E7a GPL, mas a ser v= erdade =E9 > mesmo uma farsa. Se eles deteem o direito de autor, entao e porque: a) foram os unicos autores b) quem fez contribuicoes assinou documentos legitimos a ceder o direito de autor. No caso de a) nao tiveram ninguem externo a dar codigo No caso de b) tiveram alguem a dar codigo, mas o codigo e deles. Para um projecto GNU, uma das coisas que se faz e ceder o direito de autor para a FSF, que o recebe sobre o compromisso de manter a liberdade do software. Isto pode parecer estranho, mas e preciso que tenhas em atencao de que se trata de um pais anglo-saxonico em que este tipo de compromissos e levado a serio... ao contrario do que seria de esperar se fosse feito, por exemplo, aqui em Portugal. E por achar o OpenOffice uma farsa (tens de ceder o direito de autor, e licenciar o codigo em dual ou tri-license, a SUN para aceitarem contribuicoes tuas) que comecei a desinteressar-me por ele. Mais tarde apercebi-me de varios outros problemas de foro tecnico. E preciso ter muito cuidado a quem e que se se cede o direito de autor, e decidir se sao pessoas que velem pelos nossos interesses. No caso da FSF, nao tenho a menor duvida. Isto nao estara certamente completo ou o mais perfeito, ja e tarde e estou com sono. Se nao achares suficiente explicita o que queres ver entendido. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-XKYHBUPUNQxsuaC2l+zm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8x0lYo+C50no0+t4RAl5HAJ98aXVUFUBhpnLr392iN8keYNBykgCgxCjI /vzM/EwzjZxbV179u7Pu78I= =JlPR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-XKYHBUPUNQxsuaC2l+zm-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Thu Apr 25 02:18:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Thu Apr 25 01:18:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DA_protec=E7=E3o_real_do_GPL_:-=28?= In-Reply-To: <003d01c1ebea$6e6e94e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:47:37AM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <003d01c1ebea$6e6e94e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020425011418.A2958@nsk.yi.org> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 12:47:37AM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Viva Jaime, >=20 > =C9 precisamente neste teu =FAltimo par=E1grafo que est=E1 a problem=E1= tica e a minha > reclama=E7=E3o. >=20 > Eles podiam fazer sim-senhor uma vers=E3o propriet=E1ria a partir da ve= rs=E3o X e > eu nem contestei isso. > N=E3o leste bem a resposta. Os ******* da Bug retiraram TUDO do site. N= =E3o est=E1 > l=E1 nenhuma vers=E3o GPL e o que eles dizem =E9 espantoso. Deixaram de= ceder a > aplica=E7=E3o (come=E7aram por deixar de ter download e deixar de dar a= cesso ao > CVS, s=F3 mais tarde =E9 que eliminaram por completo o texto da GPL do = site) a > quem quer que seja se n=E3o pagassem. Isso n=E3o =E9 ilegal. N=E3o t=EAm a obriga=E7=E3o de continuar a disponi= bilizar o seu software sob GPL. Ou seja, podem decidir deixar de disponibilizar o software sob determinada licen=E7a. O que n=E3o podem fazer =E9 impedir q= uem j=E1 tenha o software sob determinada licen=E7a de usufruir das condi=E7=F5es = dessa licen=E7a. > Desculpa que me deram noutra vez =E9 de que "QUASE todo o desenvolvimen= to foi > feito pela Bug Software e por isso n=E3o viam a necessidade de continua= r como > GPL". Se os outros que tamb=E9m contribuiram n=E3o passaram os direitos de auto= r =E0 Bug Software, ent=E3o t=EAm o direito e dever de exigir a remo=E7=E3o do = seu c=F3digo do software ou contrapartidas (por ex, re-disponibilizar sob GPL= ). > Ou seja, em portugu=EAs corrente, o que os ********* queriam era progra= madores > =E0 borla e como n=E3o tiveram na quantidade desejada "toca de apagar e= ssa coisa > do GPL". Primeiro suavemente e depois como as reclama=E7=F5es foram pou= cas (se > calhar s=F3 a minha como rapaz algo esclarecido) a toda a brida. Ou talvez tenham visto que embora tivessem disponibilizado o c=F3digo sob= a GPL n=E3o obtiam contribui=E7=F5es da comunidade. E assim terem decidido = que os =FAnicos beneficiados seriam os "borlistas". Mas claro, =E9 pura especula= =E7=E3o. > N=E3o podem. A lei =E9 para cumprir. Tudo o que desenvolveram com a lic= en=E7a GPL > tem de ficar p=FAblico e =E9 isso que eu gostava de v=EAr acontecer. N=E3o tem nada. Tudo o que desenvolveram com a licen=E7a GPL =E9 *deles*,= e podem fech=E1-lo se quiserem. N=E3o podem =E9 fechar uma c=F3pia que eu o= u outr=E9m tenha adquirido. O que n=E3o desenvolveram tem que permanecer sob a mesma licen=E7a, a n=E3= o ser que o seu autor lhes tenha dado permiss=E3o ou os direitos sobre o c=F3di= go. O que fizeram =E9 conden=E1vel por terem desistido da GPL. =C9 mais conde= n=E1vel visto que a justifica=E7=E3o era de passar a ser comercializada n=E3o era incompat=EDvel com a GPL. E n=E3o ser=E1 =E9tico nem legal se se tiverem aproveitado de c=F3digo de terceiros. Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 25 02:22:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 25 01:22:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]A =?ISO-8859-1?Q?protec=E7=E3o?= real do GPL :-( In-Reply-To: <003d01c1ebea$6e6e94e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <003d01c1ebea$6e6e94e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019693749.1313.21.camel@roque> --=-EKf/VKJeFEPGaGrHXu54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 00:47, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Eles podiam fazer sim-senhor uma vers=E3o propriet=E1ria a partir da vers= =E3o X e > eu nem contestei isso. > N=E3o leste bem a resposta. Os ******* da Bug retiraram TUDO do site. N= =E3o est=E1 > l=E1 nenhuma vers=E3o GPL e o que eles dizem =E9 espantoso. Deixaram de c= eder a > aplica=E7=E3o (come=E7aram por deixar de ter download e deixar de dar ace= sso ao > CVS, s=F3 mais tarde =E9 que eliminaram por completo o texto da GPL do si= te) a > quem quer que seja se n=E3o pagassem. Nada os obriga a manterem as versoes antigas on-line, e se alguem foi la buscar um binario da versao anterior, desde que diga ser GPL, a unica via de os forcar a respeitar a licenca sera provavelmente pela via legal, o que nao sei se teremos, para ja, condicoes para isso. O que eles fizeram so revelou que aparentemente nao tinham intencoes nenhumas de apoiar software livre, para alem do arranjar trabalhadores de graca. Isso e mau. Alguem fez codigo para eles que foi integrado na versao proprietaria sem existir cedencia de copyright? Ai talvez haja mais forca de argumento. De qualquer das formas, ha muito software livre que faz coisas parecidas ou iguais, e sem depender de plataformas proprietarias, por isso acho que sinceramente merecem que as teorias de Charles Darwin rapidamente ponham o bugmall no seu devido lugar na cadeia alimentar... la em baixo.. muito la em baixo. Na realidade, ja no final da corrida digestiva de alguem. ;) Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-EKf/VKJeFEPGaGrHXu54 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8x0q1o+C50no0+t4RAudVAJwMmZ0ZQ4JAtUN/fDnvcLHRee40IQCeJxhz x14lCXVnB+gKLKuaiFFjCPw= =3i5T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-EKf/VKJeFEPGaGrHXu54-- From figueira arroba europe.com Thu Apr 25 07:16:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Thu Apr 25 06:16:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <20020424200243.A27370@nsk.yi.org> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> <20020424200243.A27370@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <1019705891.825.12.camel@jung> Viva, On Wed, 2002-04-24 at 20:02, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se = lhes apetecer. > >=20 > > Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na ve= rs=E3o > > 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres. >=20 > Andas fora de contexto. Como o Bug Software =E9 a *=FAnica* detentora de > direitos de copyright sobre o software, pode e tem o direito de tornar a > vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria (assim como a vers=E3o 1 ou partes do software)= . Uh?! Ela s=F3 poder=E1 fazer isso desde que mais ningu=E9m tenha uma c=F3pia dos ficheiros fonte que est=E3o sob GPL. Apenas poder=E1 reverter a GPLiza=E7= =E3o se nunca tiver distribu=EDdo c=F3pias do programa. Ou ando enganado h=E1 anos? --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From joao arroba silvaneves.org Thu Apr 25 09:45:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Thu Apr 25 08:45:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019684054.486.183.camel@central> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019720360.631.6.camel@central> --=-CHczmjG8nSsptMx3+kwf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qui, 2002-04-25 at 00:51, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > >> Ainda andei aqui =E0 procura dos emails que troquei relacionados com e= ste > >> assunto e com a Bug Software (http://www.bug-software.com) mas n=E3o > encontrei > >> nada. J=E1 era muito antigo e tive mesmo de apagar :-( > >> > > > > Eles n=E3o fizeram nada de ilegal. Nada os obriga a distribuir a vers= =E3o de > > Software Livre. O que eles n=E3o podem =E9 proibir-te de distribuires a > > vers=E3o de Software Livre. > > > > Se eles det=EAm o direito de autor sobre o software NADA os impede de > > distribuirem o software como propriet=E1rio. =C9 por isso que deves fic= ar > > sempre com uma c=F3pia do c=F3digo dos programas de Software Livre que = usas > > (pode parecer paranoia, mas acontece ser preciso). > > > > De resto eles n=E3o fizeram nada de legalmente errado. Do ponto de vist= a > > =E9tico a situa=E7=E3o pode ser outra. > > -- > > Jo=E3o Miguel Neves >=20 > Queres tu ent=E3o dizer que eles (ou qualquer um) podem por o Software co= mo > GPL at=E9 que chega a uma fase que acham que j=E1 n=E3o precisam de ningu= =E9m e toca > a andar?! >=20 Sim, desde que sejam os detentores do direito de autor. O programa =E9 deles e, desde que n=E3o aceitem contribui=E7=F5es cujo direito de autor se= ja doutra pessoa ou usem software com outra licen=E7a, a lei d=E1-lhes essa possibilidade. > N=E3o foi essa ideia com que fiquei ao l=EAr a Licen=E7a GPL, mas a ser v= erdade =E9 > mesmo uma farsa. >=20 N=E3o tem nada a ver com a GPL, mas com a legisla=E7=E3o de direitos de aut= or. Se eu escrever um programa posso distribu=ED-lo com uma ou v=E1rias licen= =E7as conforme me apete=E7a. O que aconteceu neste caso foi que eles distribu=EDram inicialmente o programa com a GPL e depois mudaram de ideias. A GPL s=F3 obriga o software a manter-se como Software Livre se e s=F3 se tiveste acesso a ele segundo a GPL, ou seja, o dententor do direito de autor decidiu distribuir o software sob uma licen=E7a, nada o impedindo de distribuir com outras licen=E7as e nada o obrigando a distribuir vers=F5es anteriores. Claro que se tiveres uma c=F3pia do programa deles, tens 3 anos para lhes pedir o c=F3digo :). --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-CHczmjG8nSsptMx3+kwf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8x7KmGFkMfesLN9wRAuuVAJ9r7IlM/4PdagHBaa6wh3wzt7bWwACdEC75 TwD3oV4O85o5KwYEOhwvVJk= =nHUc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CHczmjG8nSsptMx3+kwf-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Thu Apr 25 10:05:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Thu Apr 25 09:05:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <1019705891.825.12.camel@jung> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> <20020424200243.A27370@nsk.yi.org> <1019705891.825.12.camel@jung> Message-ID: <1019721557.625.10.camel@central> --=-QzdIauhhK/sk2EwfZC7v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qui, 2002-04-25 at 04:38, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Wed, 2002-04-24 at 20:02, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > > > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria s= e lhes apetecer. > > >=20 > > > Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na = vers=E3o > > > 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres= . > >=20 > > Andas fora de contexto. Como o Bug Software =E9 a *=FAnica* detentora d= e > > direitos de copyright sobre o software, pode e tem o direito de tornar = a > > vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria (assim como a vers=E3o 1 ou partes do softwar= e). >=20 > Uh?! >=20 > Ela s=F3 poder=E1 fazer isso desde que mais ningu=E9m tenha uma c=F3pia d= os > ficheiros fonte que est=E3o sob GPL. Apenas poder=E1 reverter a GPLiza=E7= =E3o se > nunca tiver distribu=EDdo c=F3pias do programa. >=20 > Ou ando enganado h=E1 anos? Eles n=E3o podem reverter um software GPL para um n=E3o-GPL, mas nada o obriga que uma vez distribu=EDdo um software sob a GPL tenham de o distribuir sempre sob a GPL, ou mesmo, tenham de a distribuir. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-QzdIauhhK/sk2EwfZC7v Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8x7dUGFkMfesLN9wRAnWaAJoDXQb0+W58plGVQgZ0fYst6JWazwCghx9A N69JySrGLsip4NaQAjeudcQ= =EAzU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QzdIauhhK/sk2EwfZC7v-- From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Thu Apr 25 13:02:02 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Thu Apr 25 12:02:02 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocksroute to GPL legal test case References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> <20020424200243.A27370@nsk.yi.org> <1019705891.825.12.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3CC7E0EF.28E974FF@explicacoes.com> Vasco Figueira wrote: > > Viva, > > On Wed, 2002-04-24 at 20:02, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > > > então têm todo o direito a tornar a versão 2 proprietária se lhes apetecer. > > > > > > Apenas se nenhum código da versão 1 (que era livre) for usado na versão > > > 2. De outro modo as alterações (a versão 2) têm de ser livres. > > > > Andas fora de contexto. Como o Bug Software é a *única* detentora de > > direitos de copyright sobre o software, pode e tem o direito de tornar a > > versão 2 proprietária (assim como a versão 1 ou partes do software). > > Uh?! > > Ela só poderá fazer isso desde que mais ninguém tenha uma cópia dos > ficheiros fonte que estão sob GPL. Apenas poderá reverter a GPLização se > nunca tiver distribuído cópias do programa. Ela pode fazer isso, e quem quer que tenha os focheiros pode fazer uma versão GPL. Joao http://www.nonio.com From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 25 15:39:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Thu Apr 25 14:39:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: link partido In-Reply-To: <1019672447.705.2.camel@jung>; from figueira@europe.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:20:46PM +0100 References: <1019672447.705.2.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020425143801.K20214@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:20:46PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > ---------------------------------- > Forbidden > You don't have permission to access /doc/LivrosLivres.html on this > server. >=20 > Apache/1.3.23 Server at www.villate.org Port 80 > ---------------------------------- Obrigado Vasco pela informa=E7=E3o. J=E1 est=E1 corrigido e agora j=E1 po= dem acceder http://villate.org/doc/LivrosLivres.html http://villate.org/doc/CursosWeb.html (o problema estava em que /doc =E9 definido por Debian como um alias para a doucmenta=E7=E3o de Debian). Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Thu Apr 25 15:44:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Thu Apr 25 14:44:01 2002 Subject: Eu gosto mais desta... Re: [ANSOL-geral][ADVOCACY] Judge blocks route to GPL legal test case In-Reply-To: <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung>; from figueira@europe.com on Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:26:03PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <20020423220159.Y10060@fe.up.pt> <1019672763.705.7.camel@jung> Message-ID: <20020425144246.L20214@fe.up.pt> On Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 07:26:03PM +0100, Vasco Figueira wrote: > Viva, >=20 > On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 22:01, Jaime E . Villate wrote: > > Por isso =E9 que a linha do copyright =E9 muito importante. Se a vers= =E3o 1 do > > software dizia algo como: > > Copyright (c) 2001 Bug Software > >=20 > > ent=E3o t=EAm todo o direito a tornar a vers=E3o 2 propriet=E1ria se = lhes apetecer. >=20 > Apenas se nenhum c=F3digo da vers=E3o 1 (que era livre) for usado na ve= rs=E3o > 2. De outro modo as altera=E7=F5es (a vers=E3o 2) t=EAm de ser livres. >=20 > N=E3o =E9?! N=E3o. Se eles t=EAm o copyright do programa, ent=E3o s=E3o "o autor" e o= autor pode tornar o seu programa propriet=E1rio sempre que lhe apetecer. As ver= s=F5es que j=E1 tenha distribuido com licen=E7a livre continuam a serem livres m= as n=E3o as novas vers=F5es. Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 16:19:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 15:19:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights: Vantagens e Perigos References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@central> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019720360.631.6.camel@central> Message-ID: <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva João, "Não tem nada a ver com a GPL, mas com a legislação de direitos de autor. Se eu escrever um programa posso distribuí-lo com uma ou várias licenças conforme me apeteça. O que aconteceu neste caso foi que eles distribuíram inicialmente o programa com a GPL e depois mudaram de ideias. A GPL só obriga o software a manter-se como Software Livre se e só se tiveste acesso a ele segundo a GPL, ou seja, o dententor do direito de autor decidiu distribuir o software sob uma licença, nada o impedindo de distribuir com outras licenças e nada o obrigando a distribuir versões anteriores." Isto é grave e ainda bem que eu levantei a celeuma. Muitos dos inocentes programadores, como eu, que andam por aí a ajudar em projectos GPL não têm nenhum conhecimento desta nuance. O que sempre me foi dito e que me ficou da leitura da licença foi que os autores não poderiam escamotear o trabalho honesto feito por todos e com o espírito de entreajuda que caracteriza o movimento. Ou seja, se desenvolvessem QUALQUER COISA baseada em OpenSource (leia-se GPL) teriam de produzir sempre novas versões OpenSource. Se planeassem vir a fazer produtos PROPRIETÁRIOS teriam de usar o LGPL e mesmo assim teriam sempre de incluir os sources da parte com licença LGPL. Assim como está, a licença não serve para garantir nada. E a maior parte dos programadores que criam novos projectos e os põem com a licença GPL pensam que é assim e que estão realmente a garantir que mesmo que eventualmente eles venham a passar o projecto para outros (individuos ou empresas) a obrigatoriedade do GPL é intrinseca. Digo-te isto porque já falei sobre o assunto com alguns e a ideia deles sobre a licença é a minha e não a tua :-( E quem fala de pequenos projectos também fala do Linux. Ele é o detentor do (c) não é? E se um dia os herdeiros dele (e dos seus direitos autorais) decidem que afinal o Linux passa a proprietário? Segundo a tua lógica ele só se obriga a dar o código a quem puder provar que colaborou no dito. Mas pode vir a obrigar que esses mesmos não o possam distribuir livremente. Acho, então, que esta licença está baseada na boa vontade (e honestidade) dos detentores do copyright e não em uma obrigatoriedade de fornecer, pelo menos, a última versão GPL. "Claro que se tiveres uma cópia do programa deles, tens 3 anos para lhes pedir o código :)." Eu tenho uma cópia do programa porque podes fazer o download do site, mas... a licença que acompanha é tipo shareware. Se usares tens de pagar e não podes divulgar o código nem alterar. A problemática é que não posso realmente saber se esta é a versão GPL com outra licença, ou sequer se eles efectuaram assim tantas modificações ao projecto. Mas também não me interessa muito este programa. O sistema deles usa Applets Java proprietários e um sistema de menus também proprietário. E isto desde o príncipio, segundo me parece. Além de que não faltam programas excelentes de eCommerce como o da Zelerate, Akopia Interchange (agora RedHat) e agora um que estou a começar a apoiar: o OSCommerce (http://www.oscommerce.com) que me pareceu excelente e já num estado de boa maturidade avançada. A questão era mesmo entender porque é que estas ****** podem sair impunes. Há aqui um grande trabalho a efectuar na educação dos programadores, tradutores, documentalistas e outros que colaboram nos projectos com licenças GPL e similares. Se calhar não era mau ter uma "apostilha" (termo brasileiro) no site da ANSOL sobre: "As Licenças e os Copyrights: Vantagens e Perigos" Mais uma vez quero que fique esclarecido que a questão NÃO ERA eu querer o programa da Bug Software. Era somente uma questão de ética, percebes? Eu detesto impunidades. 1, Lopo PS: Sei que colocar texto em maiúsculas costuma significar GRITAR mas nos meus emails só é usado para realçar determinado texto e para não usar HTML que à gente que não gosta ;-) From rms arroba 1407.org Thu Apr 25 16:38:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Thu Apr 25 15:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights: Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019745128.3545.14.camel@roque> --=-ikgQpE6lNXd5FmIoEcs6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 15:03, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Isto =E9 grave e ainda bem que eu levantei a celeuma. Muitos dos inocente= s > programadores, como eu, que andam por a=ED a ajudar em projectos GPL n=E3= o t=EAm > nenhum conhecimento desta nuance. Se assinares um NDA com a Microsoft para aceders ao programa Shared Source deles, tambem podes abusar da confianca. Nada consegue impedir as mas intencoes. A diferenca sao os modos como resolves as mas intencoes ou melhor os maus actos. Se tu me emprestares dinheiro, sob a premissa de eu to devolver, e eu nunca o devolver... e uma celeuma absolutamente igual. hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-ikgQpE6lNXd5FmIoEcs6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yBNoo+C50no0+t4RAjgkAKCFY8NopuHTfZIMCHe3vKXMjy3EPgCgxA8a iCobgMN6nZVD3YvL2PCFB3U= =nKux -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ikgQpE6lNXd5FmIoEcs6-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Thu Apr 25 17:29:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Thu Apr 25 16:29:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights: Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> --=-nWrpFVSNV5bjeXPMUjqv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Qui, 2002-04-25 at 15:03, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > O que sempre me foi dito e que me ficou da leitura da licen=E7a foi que o= s > autores n=E3o poderiam escamotear o trabalho honesto feito por todos e co= m o > esp=EDrito de entreajuda que caracteriza o movimento. >=20 E n=E3o podem. N=E3o podes tornar propriet=E1ria uma vers=E3o distribu=EDda= sob a GPL. O que n=E3o garantes =E9 que o detentor do direito de autor n=E3o poss= a distribuir o software como propriet=E1rio e vers=F5es posteriores. Porque = =E9 que achas que a SUN exige que tu lhe passes os direitos de autor de quaisquer c=F3digo que seja integrado no OpenOffice ? =C9 para poderem continuar com o StarOffice como software propriet=E1rio. > Ou seja, se desenvolvessem QUALQUER COISA baseada em OpenSource (leia-se > GPL) teriam de produzir sempre novas vers=F5es OpenSource. Se planeassem = vir a > fazer produtos PROPRIET=C1RIOS teriam de usar o LGPL e mesmo assim teriam > sempre de incluir os sources da parte com licen=E7a LGPL. >=20 Qualquer coisa que recebas sob a GPL. O que tens de perceber =E9 que o autor n=E3o recebeu o seu c=F3digo sob a GPL, ele criou-o. > Assim como est=E1, a licen=E7a n=E3o serve para garantir nada. >=20 Garantir que o software que uso n=E3o pode ser tornado propriet=E1rio =E9 nada? Eu n=E3o partilho a mesma opini=E3o. > E a maior parte dos programadores que criam novos projectos e os p=F5em c= om a > licen=E7a GPL pensam que =E9 assim e que est=E3o realmente a garantir que= mesmo > que eventualmente eles venham a passar o projecto para outros (individuos= ou > empresas) a obrigatoriedade do GPL =E9 intrinseca. Digo-te isto porque j= =E1 > falei sobre o assunto com alguns e a ideia deles sobre a licen=E7a =E9 a = minha e > n=E3o a tua :-( >=20 Mas t=EAm raz=E3o. A empresa pode quanto muito relan=E7ar o projecto ou nov= as vers=F5es como propriet=E1rias. A empresa n=E3o pode tornar propriet=E1rio c=F3digo que tenha sido lan=E7ado como GPL. A culpa n=E3o =E9 minha que a maior parte das pessoas n=E3o perceba a legisla=E7=E3o de direitos de autor. Quanto =E0 GPL recomendo a leitura do = FAQ da GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html) que explica estes assuntos. > E quem fala de pequenos projectos tamb=E9m fala do Linux. Ele =E9 o deten= tor do > (c) n=E3o =E9? > E se um dia os herdeiros dele (e dos seus direitos autorais) decidem que > afinal o Linux passa a propriet=E1rio? >=20 N=E3o. O kernel Linux tem copyright distribu=EDdo, ou seja, o copyright do kernel =E9, actualmente, partilhado por mais de duas centenas de pessoas. E algumas delas nunca assinar=E3o a favor de nenhuma empresa que fa=E7a software propriet=E1rio. > Segundo a tua l=F3gica ele s=F3 se obriga a dar o c=F3digo a quem puder p= rovar que > colaborou no dito. Mas pode vir a obrigar que esses mesmos n=E3o o possam > distribuir livremente. >=20 N=E3o, segundo a GPL =E9 obrigado a dar o c=F3digo a quem distribuir vers= =F5es bin=E1rias. > Acho, ent=E3o, que esta licen=E7a est=E1 baseada na boa vontade (e honest= idade) > dos detentores do copyright e n=E3o em uma obrigatoriedade de fornecer, p= elo > menos, a =FAltima vers=E3o GPL. >=20 A decis=E3o de distribuir o c=F3digo sob a GPL =E9 uma decis=E3o do detento= r do copyright. Se eles quiserem ou n=E3o distribu=ED-lo =E9 com eles. Se distribuirem sob a GPL s=E3o obrigados a fornecer o c=F3digo-fonte a quem tiverem distribu=EDdo vers=F5es bin=E1rias. > "Claro que se tiveres uma c=F3pia do programa deles, tens 3 anos para lhe= s > pedir o c=F3digo :)." >=20 > Eu tenho uma c=F3pia do programa porque podes fazer o download do site, m= as... > a licen=E7a que acompanha =E9 tipo shareware. Se usares tens de pagar e n= =E3o > podes divulgar o c=F3digo nem alterar. >=20 Ent=E3o n=E3o =E9 Software Livre, nem licenciado sob a GPL. Qual =E9 o prob= lema? > A problem=E1tica =E9 que n=E3o posso realmente saber se esta =E9 a vers= =E3o GPL com > outra licen=E7a, ou sequer se eles efectuaram assim tantas modifica=E7=F5= es ao > projecto. >=20 Por isso =E9 que devias ter ficado com a vers=E3o GPL, nada os obriga a distribuirem a vers=E3o GPL. Espero ter esclarecido as d=FAvidas, --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-nWrpFVSNV5bjeXPMUjqv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yB9wGFkMfesLN9wRAva1AJ0aN+xTjZDP5+MU+Q19TNA5Kugv2wCggHyq Dc9li0ZMBIHTJt3i2nc+yXY= =VBUc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nWrpFVSNV5bjeXPMUjqv-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 18:09:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 17:09:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> Message-ID: <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> ----- Original Message ----- From: "João Miguel Neves" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Cc: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Quinta-feira, 25 de Abril de 2002 16:23 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos >> Eu tenho uma cópia do programa porque podes fazer o download do site, mas... >> a licença que acompanha é tipo shareware. Se usares tens de pagar e não >> podes divulgar o código nem alterar. >> > Então não é Software Livre, nem licenciado sob a GPL. Qual é o problema? Ou não lestes os emails ou não me estou a fazer compreender. 1. O programa ERA GPL 2. O programa AINDA ERA GPL mas deixou de ter download. Passou a ser pago. Mas ainda havia acesso a CVS 3. O acesso CVS foi cancelado a novos colaboradores 4. Até AQUI AINDA DIZIAM QUE ERA GPL 5. Deixou de haver qualquer menção a GPL Percebeste. Quando deixou de ser GPL já não tinha acesso a ele há algum tempo. Como ainda por cima este é um programa de eCommerce não costuma ser recolhido de outra forma. Mas a conversa já não me interessa. Eu só quis fazer aqui um ponto. Na verdade alguém pode, subtilmente, passar de GPL para ~GPL sem tu te dares conta. Outro caso: O XBMForum. Eram 4 maduros os donos do site. Havia mais de 40 tipos a programar. Tudo GPL. Os maduros chatearam-se e pura e simplesmente desapareceu o site do ar durante algum tempo. Como os contactos do grupo de desenvolvimento eram através do site foi-se tudo. Agora já existem dois projectos o XMBForum e o devBB. Percebeste a problemática agora ou não!? O PROBLEMA É QUE A MENSAGEM QUE É PASSADA À MAIOR PARTE DA MALTA É UMA E A REALIDADE É OUTRA. QUANTOS É QUE TU JULGAS QUE VÃO LÊR TODA A INFORMAÇÃO NO SITE DA FSF? NÃO SERÁ UMA OBRIGAÇÃO DA FSF (e ANSOL também) PASSAR BEM ESTA INFORMAÇÃO? NÃO SERÁ IMPORTANTE E URGENTE ALERTAR PARA OS PERIGOS? É MELHOR SÓ DIZER QUE ISTO É MUITO BOM E QUE TODOS TEMOS ACESSO AO CÓDIGO E ETC, ETC, ETC... MAS QUANDO DÁ "BOTA" VIREM COM RESPOSTAS DESTAS? Com este tipo de situações a acontecer com cada vez maior regularidade teremos de concordar com os mais cépticos que dizem que este modelo de desenvolvimento não tem futuro. Outro caso: O Quanta+ Dois dos autores/iniciadores do projecto decidiram e levaram a sua parte para um pacote comercial, com o consentimento dos outros dois (mas não dos inúmeros outros "parvos" que colaboraram com eles). Ao questionar "pessoalmente" um dos restantes sobre se eles (os restantes proprietários do (c)) não iriam fazer subitamente o mesmo, porque não me estava mesmo nada a apetecer estar a gastar horas do meu trabalho para depois eles o tornarem fechado e comercial. Resposta: "Tens a minha garantia que isso nunca acontecerá." É para rir não? Tomando em conta as tuas explicações, como é que a garantia dele me há-de valer alguma coisa, queres explicar-me? Não é para responder, ok. Acho que a conversa já vai longa e acho que o que era importante era algumas medidas esclarecedoras das massas. 1, Lopo PS: Bom feriado e bom descanso. PS2: Peço-te que não mandes para mim e para a lista que só me duplica os emails recebidos. Manda só para a Lista, por favor. Obrigado. From joao arroba silvaneves.org Thu Apr 25 18:43:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Thu Apr 25 17:43:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019752670.12964.7.camel@central> --=-VSFD1Y8LWoqLX/fK3lZn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > O PROBLEMA =C9 QUE A MENSAGEM QUE =C9 PASSADA =C0 MAIOR PARTE DA MALTA = =C9 UMA E A > REALIDADE =C9 OUTRA. >=20 > QUANTOS =C9 QUE TU JULGAS QUE V=C3O L=CAR TODA A INFORMA=C7=C3O NO SITE D= A FSF? > N=C3O SER=C1 UMA OBRIGA=C7=C3O DA FSF (e ANSOL tamb=E9m) PASSAR BEM ESTA = INFORMA=C7=C3O? > N=C3O SER=C1 IMPORTANTE E URGENTE ALERTAR PARA OS PERIGOS? > =C9 MELHOR S=D3 DIZER QUE ISTO =C9 MUITO BOM E QUE TODOS TEMOS ACESSO AO = C=D3DIGO E > ETC, ETC, ETC... MAS QUANDO D=C1 "BOTA" VIREM COM RESPOSTAS DESTAS? >=20 Quando =E9 que tu percebes que isto n=E3o tem a ver s=F3 com Software Livre= , mas com direitos de autor? Isso tamb=E9m pode acontecer com o software propriet=E1rio (veja-se a nova obriga=E7=E3o de passares a um sistema de aluguer no windows). A minha recomenda=E7=E3o =E9 sempre a mesma: se recebem Software Livre ou fazem o download da net fiquem tamb=E9m com uma c=F3pia do c=F3digo-fonte. = =C9 a =DANICA forma de garantir a continua=E7=E3o do software como Software Livre= . O mundo n=E3o =E9 perfeito e falta de =E9tica n=E3o =E9 ilegal. Se esperas = que eu comece a passar a palavra que o Software Livre =E9 mau porque h=E1 umas bestas que abusam da credulidade dos outros para os seus pr=F3prios fins, esquece. Isso =E9 o software propriet=E1rio todo. E eu vou pelo mal menor. Nestes casos eu ainda n=E3o percebi o que consideras "dar bota". N=E3o perdeste o acesso ao Software Livre que usas. Se um dia achaste que um determinado programa, por ser Software Livre, ia sempre ser Software Livre, o erro e a assump=E7=E3o foi tua, n=E3o dos detentores dos direitos = de autor, a n=E3o ser que estes o tenham afirmado. Da pr=F3xima vez recomendo que fa=E7as o download e guardes os programas numa directoria como o nome a-investigar. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-VSFD1Y8LWoqLX/fK3lZn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yDDeGFkMfesLN9wRAqtyAJ9x2cPNY1h43OGIAowuFl67zdOWGQCePAFJ cLNSlz+wPV94/kGwmlTW7FI= =uXKJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-VSFD1Y8LWoqLX/fK3lZn-- From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Thu Apr 25 19:09:01 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Thu Apr 25 18:09:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?iso-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights: Vantagens e Perigos References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@central> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <3CC8350F.4EC956E7@explicacoes.com> Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ou seja, se desenvolvessem QUALQUER COISA baseada em OpenSource (leia-se > GPL) teriam de produzir sempre novas versões OpenSource. Se a base é de outros, quem desenvolve nunca pode tornar o todo proprietário. Produtos derivado de GPL de outros programadores têm obrigatoriamente de permanecer GPL. Cada programador só pode tornar proprietário aquilo que foi escrito por si. > Assim como está, a licença não serve para garantir nada. Garante muitas coisas. Neste caso: - que ninguém pode tornar proprietário o teu trabalho sem o teu consentimento - que tu não abdiques do direito de tornar proprietário o teu trabalho - ganrante que todo o código publicado sob GPL é GPL para sempre - garante o direito ao fork > E a maior parte dos programadores que criam novos projectos e os põem com a > licença GPL pensam que é assim e que estão realmente a garantir que mesmo > que eventualmente eles venham a passar o projecto para outros (individuos ou > empresas) a obrigatoriedade do GPL é intrinseca. Mas nesse caso é. Claro que todo o código novo independente (não derivado) pode ser tornado proprietério pelos respectivos autores. Mas o código original ou derivado não. > E quem fala de pequenos projectos também fala do Linux. Ele é o detentor do > (c) não é? Será? > E se um dia os herdeiros dele (e dos seus direitos autorais) decidem que > afinal o Linux passa a proprietário? Não lhes serviria de muito porque já existem milhentos clones. > Segundo a tua lógica ele só se obriga a dar o código a quem puder provar que > colaborou no dito. Mas pode vir a obrigar que esses mesmos não o possam > distribuir livremente. Não pode. O código que está distribuido permanecerá sob GPL até expirar o copyright. > Acho, então, que esta licença está baseada na boa vontade (e honestidade) > dos detentores do copyright e não em uma obrigatoriedade de fornecer, pelo > menos, a última versão GPL. Quem contribui deve ter o cuidado de guardar as últimas versões publicadas. Joao http://www.nonio.com From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 20:15:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 19:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@central> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019745128.3545.14.camel@roque> Message-ID: <006701c1ec84$40021100$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Vêem como um forum dá mais jeito. Este thread já está a ser discutido em três ou quatro partes e está a ficar uma salganhada :-( Respondendo agora ao Rui :-) Não é nada a mesma coisa. 1. Se eu assinar a NDA está lá escarrapachado tudo e além disso a Microsoft não se arroga própriamente de estar a pôr o seu software em Open Source. SHARED != OPEN 2. Pensei que a GPL e outras fossem para impedir os maus actos de todas as partes. Penso que aqui surgiu alguma confusão com o "caso" do Bug Mall. Eu nunca colaborei no projecto. Eu soube de que o projecto estava a ser desenvolvido com a GPL através da eMarketeer (segundo informações que lhes tinha sido dadas pela própria Bug Software) e como estava insatisfeito com os programas de eCommerce GPL com que tinha começado a colaborar (porque como precisava de um para mim achei que era melhor ir ajudar outros a evoluir do que começar a partir pedra sózinho) fui lá vêr como estava e em que podia ainda colaborar. A discussão começou porque achei que eles estavam a usar o trabalho e boa vontade de outros (e não o meu) para afinal estarem a produzir um programa fechado. Este programa é em PHP por isso não há binários nem fontes; é tudo a mesma coisa. Ao reclamar eles (Bug) confirmam que deixou de ser GPL (e não que a nova versão passou a ser ~GPL, o que é muito diferente) até porque a maior parte do código (e não todo) foi feito por eles. O problema não é a quantidade de programa que foi feito por outros mas sim saber até que ponto se pode confiar. 3. Se eu te emprestar dinheiro é porque te conheço pessoalmente, sei onde moras, posso partir-te a cara se não mo devolveres (esta é a brincar). Ou então estou a dar-te uma esmola que talvez um dia inesperadamente venha a receber de volta. Ou ainda, já sei que tu és um grande caloteiro mas como tenho pena de ti digo-te que é emprestado para não te acabrunhar mas estou na verdade a dar-to. Isto não se passa nos projectos GPL, especialmente nos que têm como ambiente a internet. Aí (internet) só posso ter a confiança expressa que a licença me garantir e nada mais. Ou então estou a contribuir com código Public Domain para uns tipos que nem conheço de lado nenhum. ------------------- E dizer - como disse aqui alguém que não me lembro - que para garantir que um projecto vai continuar GPL só endossando o Copyright para a FSF é rídiculo, torna desnecessário que exista a Licença (a Fundação já se obriga a cumprir essas normas) e não é expresso em lado nenhum dentro e fora da comunidade. Tive um certo espanto ao verificar que mesmo na ANSOL há tantas "interpretações" diferentes da mesma coisa 8-| E ainda só começamos a falar da GPL. Acho mesmo que estamos a precisar de uns seminários internos sobre todas estas questões, não acham? Pelo menos a maioria de nós :-( Ou então a licença GPL tem de ser modificada passando do seu teor centrado no Criador/Autor para um teor centrado no Criador/Autor + Contribuinte/Autor. Porque, pelo que percebi, esta licença foi feita para proteger o Autor inicial de que alguém lhe abarbatasse o código ou não o "passase ao próximo" e/ou fizesse um programa pseudo-proprietário, baseado-se num certo naiívismo de que os Autores iniciais eram todos "bons rapazes". Agora vai ser necessário pensar, acho eu, que o Autor inicial é um pulha e é preciso proteger também os outros Contribuintes que até podem ser "bons rapazes". Com este "boom" cada vez maior do Software Livre vai ser mesmo necessário limar muitas arestas, o que até é natural. Bom! Por hoje chega de trabalho e de conversa. Vou v~er se ainda apanho uma nesga de sol antes que se ponha. 1 abraço, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rui Miguel Silva Seabra" To: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Quinta-feira, 25 de Abril de 2002 15:32 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 15:03, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Isto é grave e ainda bem que eu levantei a celeuma. Muitos dos inocentes > programadores, como eu, que andam por aí a ajudar em projectos GPL não têm > nenhum conhecimento desta nuance. Se assinares um NDA com a Microsoft para aceders ao programa Shared Source deles, tambem podes abusar da confianca. Nada consegue impedir as mas intencoes. A diferenca sao os modos como resolves as mas intencoes ou melhor os maus actos. Se tu me emprestares dinheiro, sob a premissa de eu to devolver, e eu nunca o devolver... e uma celeuma absolutamente igual. hugs, rms -- + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 20:45:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 19:45:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> Message-ID: <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Só mais uma. Como alguém me disse para ler a FAQ (acho que foi o João) eu fui lêr. "A GPL requer que o código fonte de versões modificadas seja disponibilizado para o público? A GPL não obriga você a distribuir sua versão modificada. Você é livre para fazer as suas modificações e utiliza-las de forma privada, sem nunca disponibiliza-las. Mas se você disponibilizar a versão modificada para o público de qualquer forma, a GPL requer que você torne o código fonte disponível para os usuários, sob os termos da GPL. Portanto, a GPL dá permissão para se disponibilizar o programa modificado de algumas formas, mas não de outras formas; mas a decisão disponibilizar ou não o programa depende de você." http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.pt.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic Parece-me que me dá razão. Eles estão a VENDER o produto. Ou estou a lêr isto mal. Deve ser do cansaço. "Considere esta situação: . X disponibiliza V1, um projeto sob a GPL. . Y contribui para o desenvolvimento de V2 com mudanças e novo código baseado em V1. . X quer mudar V2 para uma licença outra que a GPL. . X precisa da permissão de Y? Sim. De Y foi exigido que ele disponibilizasse sua versão sob a GNU GPL, como uma consequencia de basear seu programa na versão V1 de X. Nada foi pedido a ele para concordar em disponibilizar seu código sob qualquer outra licença. Portanto, X tem que ter a permissão de Y antes de disponibilizar aquele código sob qualquer outra licença. " http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.pt.html#TOCConsider Isto é EXACTAMENTE o que eu tenho dito. Mas com a particularidade de que eu não sei quem foram os Y no caso "Bug Software" (X)... mas que os houve, houve. Até eles o confirmaram no email que enviaram. E acho que, ou a BS apresentava a anuência escrita dos ditos Y, renunciando ao seu Direito de Autor, para que eles passassem o software a proprietário ou não o poderiam passar sem o código fonte e sem respeitar o GPL. Agora é que é. 'Tou no ir. Hasta la vista. Lopo From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 22:08:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 21:08:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights: Dois donos para um só programa ?!?! References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> Message-ID: <009501c1ec94$147659a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Ainda sobre a licença GPL. Um outro tipo de esclarecimento do pessoal que está mais por dentro. No osCommerce vem dentro dos ficheiros do programa o seguinte: " $Id: countries.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 harley_vb Exp $ osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions http://www.oscommerce.com Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce Released under the GNU General Public License" Mas o ficheiro da licença (a tal GNU GPL) que o acompanha diz o seguinte: "GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2, June 1991 Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed." ====================== QUESTÃO 1 ====================== Ora, como numa diz que o (C) 2002 é da osCommerce e na outra diz que (C) 1989,1991 é da FSF e na primeira diz que é cedido comforme a segunda ('tá a ficar confuso) qual das duas é a predominante em caso de disputa? ====================== QUESTÃO 2 ====================== É válido que eu coloque na parte da tradução e em outros módulos que venha a desenvolver: " $Id: modulo.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 lopo_ar Exp $ osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions http://www.oscommerce.com Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce Translation (c) 2002 Lopo de Almeida lopo.almeida@sitaar.com Released under the GNU General Public License" Como já tenho feito. Ou melhor ainda: " $Id: modulo.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 lopo_ar Exp $ osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions http://www.oscommerce.com Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce Translation (c) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. Released under the GNU General Public License" Isto obriga-os a não passarem o programa a proprietário sem me consultarem? Ou à FSF? Traduzir 38 ficheiros e cerca de 200 linhas de código, mais documentação, é considerado contributo? ------------------ Agradecido pela resposta às duas questões. 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "João Miguel Neves" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Cc: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Quinta-feira, 25 de Abril de 2002 16:23 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]As Licenças e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Thu Apr 25 23:15:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Thu Apr 25 22:15:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Linux ganha linha de crédito Message-ID: <00c701c1ec9d$61b420e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> "Banco Real oferece financiamento para serviços oferecidos pela Conectiva São Paulo, abril de 2002 - A partir de agora, graças a uma parceria firmada entre a Conectiva, principal empresa de serviços em Linux na América Latina, e o Banco Real, as empresas que pretendem se automatizar ou migrar suas redes para Linux, contam com uma linha de crédito exclusiva. Através dela, organizações de todos os tamanhos poderão adquirir produtos e serviços de alta qualidade da Conectiva. Para saber mais: http://www.conectiva.com.br/noticias/2002/04/25/2673_det.html " Isto é que era bom que nós tivessemos cá também ;-) 1, Lopo From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Fri Apr 26 00:59:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Thu Apr 25 23:59:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAs_Licen=E7as_e_os_Copyrights:_Dois_don?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?os_para_um_s=F3_programa_=3F!=3F!?= In-Reply-To: <009501c1ec94$147659a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:02:02PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <009501c1ec94$147659a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020425235523.A25174@nsk.yi.org> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:02:02PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > No osCommerce vem dentro dos ficheiros do programa o seguinte: =C9 o (c) do programa. > Mas o ficheiro da licen=E7a (a tal GNU GPL) que o acompanha diz o segui= nte: =C9 o (c) da licen=E7a. =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > QUEST=C3O 1 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Ora, como numa diz que o (C) 2002 =E9 da osCommerce e na outra diz que = (C) > 1989,1991 =E9 da FSF e na primeira diz que =E9 cedido comforme a segund= a ('t=E1 a > ficar confuso) qual das duas =E9 a predominante em caso de disputa? N=E3o h=E1 predomin=E2ncia, s=E3o (c) diferentes e independentes. Agora, = se o c=F3digo diz que =E9 disponibilizado sob a GPL, ent=E3o podes fazer com e= le como quiseres seguindo as regras da GPL. J=E1 tens o programa, tens uma licen=E7= a para ele, e essa licen=E7a =E9 a GPL. Nota que o dono do (c) pode mudar a licen=E7a do programa para outra coisa qualquer, mas *tu j=E1 o tens sob = a licen=E7a GPL*. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > QUEST=C3O 2 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > =C9 v=E1lido que eu coloque na parte da tradu=E7=E3o e em outros m=F3du= los que venha a > desenvolver: ... > Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce > Translation (c) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. ^^^ ... ... ^^^ (talvez seja melhor perguntar antes =E0 FSF) =20 > Isto obriga-os a n=E3o passarem o programa a propriet=E1rio sem me cons= ultarem? > Ou =E0 FSF? Bem, sim e n=E3o. O programa como est=E1 n=E3o pode ser mudado de licen=E7= a sem te consultarem (a n=E3o ser q o teu contributo seja insignificante). Mas pod= em mudar a licen=E7a de tudo o que =E9 *deles*, e assim tornar o produto propriet=E1rio, sem as *tuas* altera=E7=F5es. > Traduzir 38 ficheiros e cerca de 200 linhas de c=F3digo, mais documenta= =E7=E3o, =E9 > considerado contributo? Claro que sim. Em cima refiro-me a por exemplo uma linha de c=F3digo no m= eio de um milhar de linhas. Ou correc=E7=F5es min=FAsculas e =F3bvias. Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Fri Apr 26 01:07:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:07:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAs_Licen=E7as_e_os_Copyrights:Vantagens?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?_e_Perigos?= In-Reply-To: <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:38:00PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020426000326.B25174@nsk.yi.org> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 07:38:00PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Parece-me que me d=E1 raz=E3o. Eles est=E3o a VENDER o produto. > Ou estou a l=EAr isto mal. Deve ser do cansa=E7o. Sim, mas ou o produto =E9 apenas DELES, e podem mudar a licen=E7a, ou tem contributo de outros, e se a mudarem sem a permiss=E3o destes outros est=E3= o a violar a lei de direitos de autor. > "Considere esta situa=E7=E3o: >=20 > . X disponibiliza V1, um projeto sob a GPL. > . Y contribui para o desenvolvimento de V2 com mudan=E7as e novo > c=F3digo baseado em V1. > . X quer mudar V2 para uma licen=E7a outra que a GPL. > . X precisa da permiss=E3o de Y? Sim, mas se Y apenas usa sem contribuir, n=E3o precisam da sua permiss=E3= o. E a c=F3pia que Y tem continuar=E1 sempre sob a GPL, e os seus direitos s=E3= o inalienaveis. > Sim. De Y foi exigido que ele disponibilizasse sua vers=E3o sob a GNU G= PL, > como uma consequencia de basear seu programa na vers=E3o V1 de X. Nada = foi > pedido a ele para concordar em disponibilizar seu c=F3digo sob qualquer= outra > licen=E7a. Portanto, X tem que ter a permiss=E3o de Y antes de disponib= ilizar > aquele c=F3digo sob qualquer outra licen=E7a. " > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.pt.html#TOCConsider >=20 > Isto =E9 EXACTAMENTE o que eu tenho dito. Mas com a particularidade de = que eu > n=E3o sei quem foram os Y no caso "Bug Software" (X)... mas que os houv= e, > houve. At=E9 eles o confirmaram no email que enviaram. Ent=E3o esses Ys =E9 que t=EAm que requerer que o c=F3digo seja mantido s= ob a GPL, ou que removam o seu c=F3digo do produto final. > E acho que, ou a BS apresentava a anu=EAncia escrita dos ditos Y, renun= ciando > ao seu Direito de Autor, para que eles passassem o software a propriet=E1= rio > ou n=E3o o poderiam passar sem o c=F3digo fonte e sem respeitar o GPL. Eles n=E3o t=EAm que o apresentar, n=E3o a ti nem a mim. Um dos Y =E9 que= ter=E1 que protestar ou ir por vias mais oficiais. Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 26 01:33:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019777198.3119.69.camel@roque> --=-i6xOKAfd18MOWrE2k3MT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bem, analisemos a versao inglesa dado que eu nao gosto de ver traducoes, que podem ou nao estar boas o suficiente: | Q: Does the GPL require that source code of modified versions be | posted to the public? | A: The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You | are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever | releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), | too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally | without ever releasing it outside the organization. Ou seja, se ARRANJASTE um programa GPL, e fizeste umas modificacoes para uso pessoal ou interno da tua organizacao, nao es obrigado a distribuir as modificacoes. | But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the | GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the | users, under the GPL. Nao sei como por isto de uma forma mais clara: apenas se tornares as modificacoes publicas, e que as TENS DE publicar sob a GNU GPL. | Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in | certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to | release it is up to you. Assim, a GPL da permissao para publicar o programa modificado de certas maneiras, mas nao de certas outras maneiras; mas a decisao de publicar as modificacoes e tua. On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 19:38, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Parece-me que me d=E1 raz=E3o. Eles est=E3o a VENDER o produto. Que e deles e de mais ninguem, ate prova em contrario, que e o que me parece ser o caso, certo? > Ou estou a l=EAr isto mal. Deve ser do cansa=E7o. Acho que devias nao te preocupar mesmo nada com o bugmall... apenas. > "Considere esta situa=E7=E3o: > . X disponibiliza V1, um projeto sob a GPL. > . Y contribui para o desenvolvimento de V2 com mudan=E7as e novo > c=F3digo baseado em V1. > . X quer mudar V2 para uma licen=E7a outra que a GPL. > . X precisa da permiss=E3o de Y? >=20 > Sim. De Y foi exigido que ele disponibilizasse sua vers=E3o sob a GNU GPL= , > como uma consequencia de basear seu programa na vers=E3o V1 de X. Nada fo= i > pedido a ele para concordar em disponibilizar seu c=F3digo sob qualquer o= utra > licen=E7a. Portanto, X tem que ter a permiss=E3o de Y antes de disponibil= izar > aquele c=F3digo sob qualquer outra licen=E7a. " > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.pt.html#TOCConsider > Isto =E9 EXACTAMENTE o que eu tenho dito. Mas com a particularidade de qu= e eu > n=E3o sei quem foram os Y no caso "Bug Software" (X)... mas que os houve, > houve. At=E9 eles o confirmaram no email que enviaram. Ora bem, algum pobre coitado no Gildot considerou Kafkiano que a FSF peca que lhes seja cedido o copyright, sob a promessa de manter o software Livre -- este tipo de promessas sao tradicionalmente muito honradas nas culturas anglo-saxonicas. E muito importante ter em atencao que a SUN nao faz esta promessa, por exemplo, no caso do Open Office...=20 Neste caso, X nunca fez esta promessa. Se os Y's tivessem cedido os seus direitos para X, entao X pode legalmente fazer o que quiser (mas isso pode ser eticamente criticavel). Se os Y's nao tiverem provas de que fizeram contributos, X pode legalmente fazer o que quiser (mas isso pode ser eticamente criticavel). Se X cometer qualquer uma destas atitudes, X devera muito rapidamente deixar de ter colaboradores... E por isso que e importante em cada ficheiro de source incluir uma referencia a licenca usada, e os autores. Se sair codigo distribuido pela GPL, com autores X, entao X pode fazer o que quiser mais tarde. Se foi com X e Y, entao Y tem de dar o seu acordo, ou entao X tem de remover todas as contribuicoes de Y. Numa situacao destas, se calhar Y nao voltara a contribuir para este projecto. > E acho que, ou a BS apresentava a anu=EAncia escrita dos ditos Y, renunci= ando > ao seu Direito de Autor, para que eles passassem o software a propriet=E1= rio > ou n=E3o o poderiam passar sem o c=F3digo fonte e sem respeitar o GPL. Nao. Existe presuncao de inocencia. os Y's e que teem de apresentar provas de que X se apropriou ilegalmente dos seus direitos. Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-i6xOKAfd18MOWrE2k3MT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yJCuo+C50no0+t4RAtVqAJ0YNvRfFhd2T+KAcyDeGebEqHADdQCgjVn1 uO/QhIzJHhEkGoti4dJzLWE= =B3qM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-i6xOKAfd18MOWrE2k3MT-- From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Fri Apr 26 01:39:02 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:39:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-15?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAs_Licen=E7as_e_os_Copyrights:Vantagens?= =?iso-8859-15?Q?_e_Perigos?= In-Reply-To: <1019777198.3119.69.camel@roque>; from rms@1407.org on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:26:38AM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019777198.3119.69.camel@roque> Message-ID: <20020426003603.A25893@nsk.yi.org> On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:26:38AM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Ora bem, algum pobre coitado no Gildot considerou Kafkiano que a FSF > peca que lhes seja cedido o copyright, sob a promessa de manter o > software Livre -- este tipo de promessas sao tradicionalmente muito > honradas nas culturas anglo-saxonicas. E tamb=E9m tradicionalmente honradas na cultura portuguesa. T=E3o tradicionalmente que agora as pessoas usam a express=E3o "palavra de honr= a" sem saberem o que est=E3o a dizer. E IANAL, mas segundo a lei portuguesa um acordo por palavras, desde que com testemunhas, n=E3o tem tamb=E9m validade legal como um documento escr= ito? Cumps, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 26 01:44:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:44:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019777845.3084.80.camel@roque> --=-0oxCv8bwdSacVOb1YdQq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 17:03, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ou n=E3o lestes os emails ou n=E3o me estou a fazer compreender. > 1. O programa ERA GPL > 2. O programa AINDA ERA GPL mas deixou de ter download. > Passou a ser pago. Mas ainda havia acesso a CVS > 3. O acesso CVS foi cancelado a novos colaboradores > 4. At=E9 AQUI AINDA DIZIAM QUE ERA GPL > 5. Deixou de haver qualquer men=E7=E3o a GPL Isto assim e mais claro... podias ter comecado logo por isto. E mais facil esclarecer duvidas quando a situacao e toda bem explicita, em vez de acrescentar factos em cada novo email. > Percebeste. Quando deixou de ser GPL j=E1 n=E3o tinha acesso a ele h=E1 a= lgum > tempo. Se tinha cvs, acho estranho que os envolvidos preocupados nao tenham feito um fork livre. Se calhar tambem nao estavam interessados. > Como ainda por cima este =E9 um programa de eCommerce n=E3o costuma ser > recolhido de outra forma. Recolheste uma versao GPL? Sao binarios mas dizem ser libertados pela GNU GPL? Quero factos, sim ou nao. Se sim tens o direito a pedir a source dessa versao. Se nao, e a vida, tivesses feito o download antes. > Mas a conversa j=E1 n=E3o me interessa. Eu s=F3 quis fazer aqui um ponto. > Na verdade algu=E9m pode, subtilmente, passar de GPL para ~GPL sem tu te = dares > conta. Como o Joao ja disse, se es assim tao paranoico, guarda cada release de software (mesmo as betas e alfas). > Outro caso: O XBMForum. > Eram 4 maduros os donos do site. Havia mais de 40 tipos a programar. Tudo > GPL. > Os maduros chatearam-se e pura e simplesmente desapareceu o site do ar > durante algum tempo. > Como os contactos do grupo de desenvolvimento eram atrav=E9s do site foi-= se > tudo. > Agora j=E1 existem dois projectos o XMBForum e o devBB. > Percebeste a problem=E1tica agora ou n=E3o!? Nao, qual e a problematica? Mais uma vez, faltam factos que conheces e nao os comunicas. > O PROBLEMA =C9 QUE A MENSAGEM QUE =C9 PASSADA =C0 MAIOR PARTE DA MALTA = =C9 UMA E A > REALIDADE =C9 OUTRA. Nao, a realidade e que nem todos conseguem interpretar texto da mesma forma, e por isso por vezes podem pensar coisas que nao sao as que la estao escritas (atencao que nao estou a falar de textos subjectivos ou abstractos). > QUANTOS =C9 QUE TU JULGAS QUE V=C3O L=CAR TODA A INFORMA=C7=C3O NO SITE D= A FSF? > N=C3O SER=C1 UMA OBRIGA=C7=C3O DA FSF (e ANSOL tamb=E9m) PASSAR BEM ESTA = INFORMA=C7=C3O? Nao somos obrigados (e nao penso que alguem aqui aqui queira) a ser GPoLice. > N=C3O SER=C1 IMPORTANTE E URGENTE ALERTAR PARA OS PERIGOS? Nada como propor um texto para colocar no site, queres encarregar-te disso? > =C9 MELHOR S=D3 DIZER QUE ISTO =C9 MUITO BOM E QUE TODOS TEMOS ACESSO AO = C=D3DIGO E > ETC, ETC, ETC... MAS QUANDO D=C1 "BOTA" VIREM COM RESPOSTAS DESTAS? E por isso que se tem de se focar na Liberdade e nao no acesso ao codigo. O acesso ao codigo e uma condicao necessaria mas nao suficiente para o codigo ser Livre. > Com este tipo de situa=E7=F5es a acontecer com cada vez maior regularidad= e > teremos de concordar com os mais c=E9pticos que dizem que este modelo de > desenvolvimento n=E3o tem futuro. Sim, o modelo opensource nao tem futuro. Concordo contigo. Podemos voltar a falar de Software Livre? > Outro caso: O Quanta+ > Dois dos autores/iniciadores do projecto decidiram e levaram a sua parte > para um pacote comercial, com o consentimento dos outros dois (mas n=E3o = dos > in=FAmeros outros "parvos" que colaboraram com eles). Se levaram apenas a sua parte, nao precisam do consentimento de mais ninguem. Nao estou a ver quem e parvo, para alem dos 2 que decidiram excluir-se do mundo Livre. > Ao questionar "pessoalmente" um dos restantes sobre se eles (os restantes > propriet=E1rios do (c)) n=E3o iriam fazer subitamente o mesmo, porque n= =E3o me > estava mesmo nada a apetecer estar a gastar horas do meu trabalho para > depois eles o tornarem fechado e comercial. > Resposta: "Tens a minha garantia que isso nunca acontecer=E1." > =C9 para rir n=E3o? Tomando em conta as tuas explica=E7=F5es, como =E9 qu= e a garantia > dele me h=E1-de valer alguma coisa, queres explicar-me? Este disse que disse esta muito confuso, podes clarifica-lo? Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-0oxCv8bwdSacVOb1YdQq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yJM1o+C50no0+t4RAolIAJwIGFncI95cauyIs6b/2xmD3yGZCACfWV1Z d4LeziPAOqENNRj/jdGVIFg= =a+Ay -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-0oxCv8bwdSacVOb1YdQq-- From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 26 01:46:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:46:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <20020426003603.A25893@nsk.yi.org> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <007701c1ec88$68181280$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019777198.3119.69.camel@roque> <20020426003603.A25893@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <1019777960.3119.82.camel@roque> --=-ZxQkyYNUAWOvSd0p8aHb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2002-04-26 at 00:36, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > E IANAL, mas segundo a lei portuguesa um acordo por palavras, desde que > com testemunhas, n=E3o tem tamb=E9m validade legal como um documento escr= ito? Penso que sim, L's que se apresentem e digam de sua experiencia, por favor :) --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-ZxQkyYNUAWOvSd0p8aHb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yJOoo+C50no0+t4RAmkxAJsGam+g4EiCztclSnWr1BXQ9cLwZQCcDiHt nonY+nbWXUvZEn1hXa8toSs= =ZGnj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ZxQkyYNUAWOvSd0p8aHb-- From rms arroba 1407.org Fri Apr 26 01:55:02 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Fri Apr 26 00:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]As =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Licen=E7as?= e os Copyrights:Vantagens e Perigos In-Reply-To: <006701c1ec84$40021100$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra l> <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019745128.3545.14.camel@roque> <006701c1ec84$40021100$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1019778486.3119.92.camel@roque> --=-z2Acq+gsHQszq/U1feRL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2002-04-25 at 19:07, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > V=EAem como um forum d=E1 mais jeito. Este thread j=E1 est=E1 a ser discu= tido em > tr=EAs ou quatro partes e est=E1 a ficar uma salganhada :-( Nao sei no que e que um forum resolve este problema. Os foruns www sao uma especie de mailing lists. > Respondendo agora ao Rui :-) > N=E3o =E9 nada a mesma coisa. > 1. Se eu assinar a NDA est=E1 l=E1 escarrapachado tudo e al=E9m disso a M= icrosoft > n=E3o se arroga pr=F3priamente de estar a p=F4r o seu software em Open So= urce. > SHARED !=3D OPEN Pois nao, shared !=3D open mas shared ~=3D open. Se muita gente nao entende a diferenca entre Software Livre e software proprietario, como pensas que vao reagir a diferenca? Entretanto tentam colar-se a boa imagem do "opensource". > 2. Pensei que a GPL e outras fossem para impedir os maus actos de todas a= s > partes. > > Ao reclamar eles (Bug) confirmam que deixou de ser GPL (e n=E3o que a nov= a > vers=E3o passou a ser ~GPL, o que =E9 muito diferente) at=E9 porque a mai= or parte > do c=F3digo (e n=E3o todo) foi feito por eles. > O problema n=E3o =E9 a quantidade de programa que foi feito por outros ma= s sim > saber at=E9 que ponto se pode confiar. > Cortei o parentesis ao essencial: isso nao tem nada a ver com ser GPL ou Shared Source, ate que ponto pode a MS confiar que os tipos nao levam algumas ideias numa diskette? > Isto n=E3o se passa nos projectos GPL, especialmente nos que t=EAm como a= mbiente > a internet. A=ED (internet) s=F3 posso ter a confian=E7a expressa que a l= icen=E7a me > garantir e nada mais. Ou ent=E3o estou a contribuir com c=F3digo Public D= omain > para uns tipos que nem conhe=E7o de lado nenhum. Sabes que existem tribunais internacionais, nao sabes? > E dizer - como disse aqui algu=E9m que n=E3o me lembro - que para garanti= r que > um projecto vai continuar GPL s=F3 endossando o Copyright para a FSF =E9 > r=EDdiculo, torna desnecess=E1rio que exista a Licen=E7a (a Funda=E7=E3o = j=E1 se obriga > a cumprir essas normas) e n=E3o =E9 expresso em lado nenhum dentro e fora= da > comunidade. Sim, e ridiculo, dado que nao e a unica maneira, mas e uma boa maneira. Eles sao os maiores peritos que existem sobre a GPL. Dessa forma, em caso de conflictos, eles teem mais capacidade para defender legalmente o direito de autor. > Ou ent=E3o a licen=E7a GPL tem de ser modificada passando do seu teor cen= trado > no Criador/Autor para um teor centrado no Criador/Autor + > Contribuinte/Autor. Porque, pelo que percebi, esta licen=E7a foi feita pa= ra > proteger o Autor inicial de que algu=E9m lhe abarbatasse o c=F3digo ou n= =E3o o > "passase ao pr=F3ximo" e/ou fizesse um programa pseudo-propriet=E1rio, > baseado-se num certo nai=EDvismo de que os Autores iniciais eram todos "b= ons > rapazes". Considerando o esforco de a desenvolver, e o estudo que ja teve, acho que esta proposta e muito presuncosa :) > Agora vai ser necess=E1rio pensar, acho eu, que o Autor inicial =E9 um pu= lha e =E9 > preciso proteger tamb=E9m os outros Contribuintes que at=E9 podem ser "bo= ns > rapazes". Com este "boom" cada vez maior do Software Livre vai ser mesmo > necess=E1rio limar muitas arestas, o que at=E9 =E9 natural. Exactamente. Por isso e que as pessoas deveriam sempre trazer a source e compilarem os seus proprios binarios :) Hugs, rms --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-z2Acq+gsHQszq/U1feRL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8yJW1o+C50no0+t4RAuiXAKCQKNk2xToHbtzrhVY6Y4izfiJ0BACfVUH3 ePQScBmrtvlECf/HVYEpDH8= =FqFQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-z2Acq+gsHQszq/U1feRL-- From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 26 12:01:02 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Fri Apr 26 11:01:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DAs_Licen=E7as_e_os_Copyrights:Vantagens_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_Perigos?= In-Reply-To: <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 05:03:02PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <004001c1ec72$b3be3ae0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020426110041.O20214@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 05:03:02PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: >=20 > O PROBLEMA =C9 QUE A MENSAGEM QUE =C9 PASSADA =C0 MAIOR PARTE DA MALTA = =C9 UMA E A > REALIDADE =C9 OUTRA. >=20 > QUANTOS =C9 QUE TU JULGAS QUE V=C3O L=CAR TODA A INFORMA=C7=C3O NO SITE= DA FSF? > N=C3O SER=C1 UMA OBRIGA=C7=C3O DA FSF (e ANSOL tamb=E9m) PASSAR BEM EST= A INFORMA=C7=C3O? > N=C3O SER=C1 IMPORTANTE E URGENTE ALERTAR PARA OS PERIGOS? Claro que sim, mas muito mais importante =E9 conseguirmos primeiro que a = pr=F3pria ANSOL esteja bem informada. Tu continuas a falar de Open Source como se f= osse sin=F3nimo de Free Software; para mim =E9 urgente que percebas a diferen=E7= a. O que defendemos n=E3o =E9 o principio de deixar ver o c=F3digo fonte aos outro= s ("abrir" o c=F3digo); o importante s=E3o as liberdades defendidas pelo Software Li= vre. E essas liberdades n=E3o podem ser impostas =E0 for=E7a; temos que apelar =E0= boa vontade de alguns e recusar-nos a apoiar a outros com m=E3 vontade. Por i= sso =E9 que recusamos usar certos programas e somos acusados de dogm=E1ticos. Qu= eremos que os autores e companhias produtoras de software usem licen=E7as livres= por convic=E7=E3o =E9tica e n=E3o por medo a serem levados a tribunal. Jaime From villate arroba gnu.org Fri Apr 26 12:32:01 2002 From: villate arroba gnu.org (Jaime E . Villate) Date: Fri Apr 26 11:32:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?As_Licen=E7as_e_os_Copyrights:_Dois_donos_para_um_s=F3_pr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ograma_=3F!=3F!?= In-Reply-To: <009501c1ec94$147659a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt>; from lopo.almeida@sitaar.com on Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:02:02PM +0100 References: <087601c1eabd$b13f03a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019684054.486.183.camel@centra <004401c1ebea$f52fa6e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1019720360.631.6.camel@central> <003301c1ec63$57fcfe80$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1019748208.11679.83.camel@central> <009501c1ec94$147659a0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020426113105.P20214@fe.up.pt> On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 09:02:02PM +0100, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Ainda sobre a licen=E7a GPL. Um outro tipo de esclarecimento do pessoal= que > est=E1 mais por dentro. >=20 > No osCommerce vem dentro dos ficheiros do programa o seguinte: >=20 > " $Id: countries.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 harley_vb Exp $ >=20 > osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions > http://www.oscommerce.com >=20 > Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce >=20 > Released under the GNU General Public License" >=20 > Mas o ficheiro da licen=E7a (a tal GNU GPL) que o acompanha diz o segui= nte: >=20 > "GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE >=20 > Version 2, June 1991 > Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, > Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute > verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowe= d." >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > QUEST=C3O 1 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Ora, como numa diz que o (C) 2002 =E9 da osCommerce e na outra diz que = (C) > 1989,1991 =E9 da FSF e na primeira diz que =E9 cedido comforme a segund= a ('t=E1 a > ficar confuso) qual das duas =E9 a predominante em caso de disputa? Estas a confundir duas coisas: a licen=E7a GPL, como documento, e o OsCom= merce. O detentor do copyright da primeira =E9 a FSF, enquanto que o copyright d= o OsCommerce pertence ao "osCommerce" e n=E3o tem sido cedido a ningu=E9m. Dizer "Release under the GNU GPL" n=E3o implica estar a ceder o copyright= a ningu=E9m. Simplesmente aproveitar um documento j=E1 escrito (a GNU GPL) = para=20 explicar as condi=E7=F5es de distribui=E7=E3o e c=F3pia do programa. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > QUEST=C3O 2 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > =C9 v=E1lido que eu coloque na parte da tradu=E7=E3o e em outros m=F3du= los que venha a > desenvolver: >=20 > " $Id: modulo.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 lopo_ar Exp $ >=20 > osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions > http://www.oscommerce.com >=20 > Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce > Translation (c) 2002 Lopo de Almeida lopo.almeida@sitaar.com >=20 > Released under the GNU General Public License" N=E3o =E9 recomendavel fazer isso. A nota de copyright est=E1 bem (embora= fosse melhoravel) mas a declara=E7=E3o de autoriza=E7=E3o de c=F3pia deve ser e= scrita textualmente como =E9 dito claramente na pr=F3pria GPL: em vez de "Releas= ed under the GNU General Public License" deveria dizer: This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. =20 This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 Para a nota de copyright eu sugeria: Copyright (c) 2002 Lopo de Almeida lopo.almeida@sitaar.com This program is a translated version of OsCommerce, Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce >=20 > Como j=E1 tenho feito. Ou melhor ainda: >=20 >=20 > " $Id: modulo.php,v 1.25 2002/03/17 17:34:47 lopo_ar Exp $ >=20 > osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions > http://www.oscommerce.com >=20 > Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce > Translation (c) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. S=F3 podes fazer isto depois de teres preenchido, assinado e devolvido um impresso que fornece a FSF para quem lhes quiser ceder o seu copyright. > Isto obriga-os a n=E3o passarem o programa a propriet=E1rio sem me cons= ultarem? > Ou =E0 FSF? Continuam a poder fazer com o seu programa original o que lhes apetecer. = O que no podem fazer =E9 incluir as tuas traduc=E7=F5es em outra vers=E3o q= ue n=E3o seja distribuida com a licen=E7a GPL, a menos que tu (ou a FSF) autorizes. > Traduzir 38 ficheiros e cerca de 200 linhas de c=F3digo, mais documenta= =E7=E3o, =E9 > considerado contributo? Claro que =E9 um contributo importante. Mas se os autores originais achar= em que o teu contributo =E9 pequeno comparado com o trabalho feito por eles, pod= er=E3o pedir que lhes cedas os direitos de autor; se n=E3o o fizeres, podem mant= er bem identificado o teu contributo para poder desistir dele se tiverem que tom= ar uma decis=E3o com a qual n=E3o concordas. E essa decis=E3o pode n=E3o ter= a ver com tornar o software proprietario. Por exemplo, acontece muitas vezes que os autores de um programa querem aderir ao projecto GNU mas algum colaborado= r opoe-se. Se os autores n=E3o tiveram o cuidado de obter a ced=EAncia do c= opyright por parte dos colaboradores, ou de identificar a parte que cada um fez (o= CVS ajuda muito nisso) ter=E3o problemas para poder tomar essa decis=E3o. Recomendo a leitura de http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain_toc.html Um abra=E7o, Jaime From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sat Apr 27 19:58:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sat Apr 27 18:58:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Esta é gira :D Message-ID: <00c101c1ee14$28506ac0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> "MS exec argues for right to break rivals' software" http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25042.html Então eles acham que Free Software é mau... mas espiolhar os caixotes do lixo ou criar "esquemas" para impedir o software dos outro de funcionar já está bem. É uma filosofia interessante :D 1, Lopo From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 28 13:35:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 28 12:35:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]EUCD Message-ID: <1019993367.1852.92.camel@central> --=-21WvrOZs0bkAAdxNJCn0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-3T/XLsHsvZiLxDCOqM5x" --=-3T/XLsHsvZiLxDCOqM5x Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acabei de enviar um e-mail a pedir esclarecimentos sobre a EUCD para o Gabinete de Direitos de Autor do Minist=E9rio da Cultura. Envio tamb=E9m para a lista porque pode ser que seja =FAtil para algu=E9m aprender um pouc= o mais sobre este assunto. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-3T/XLsHsvZiLxDCOqM5x Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Forwarded message - Directiva de Sociedade de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Informa=E7=E3o?= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Subject: Directiva de Sociedade de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Informa=E7=E3o?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves To: gda@gda.pt Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-fIMMENk9UbGoSta7hnHj" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 28 Apr 2002 12:25:41 +0100 Message-Id: <1019993145.1852.88.camel@central> Mime-Version: 1.0 --=-fIMMENk9UbGoSta7hnHj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bom dia, Estou a contactar-vos porque gostaria de saber em que estado est=E1 a passagem da Directiva 2001/29/CE para a legisla=E7=E3o nacional. Agradecia que, se for poss=EDvel, me esclarecessem sobre algumas d=FAvidas sobre o impacto da implementa=E7=E3o desta directiva na nossa legisla=E7=E3= o de direitos de autor (a maior parte destas d=FAvidas adv=EAm do que conhe=E7o = de outras implementa=E7=F5es do Tratado de Genebra de Dezembro de 1996, em especial a DMCA americana de 1998): - A protec=E7=E3o dada a medidas de car=E1cter tecnol=F3gico no artigo 6 in= clui medidas de prote=E7=E3o que evitem utiliza=E7=F5es legais da obra intelectu= al? Se n=E3o, isso vai estar expl=EDcito na lei? =C9 que, por exemplo, nos EUA, n=E3o interessa se a circumven=E7=E3o de med= idas de car=E1cter tecnol=F3gico =E9 para um fim legal como a investiga=E7=E3o cient=EDfica. A Uni=E3o Europeia j=E1 se mostrou preocupada sobre esta possibilidade ocorrer na Europa (http://europa.eu.int/information_society/newsroom/documents/drm_workingdoc= .pdf - p=E1g. 13, =FAltimo par=E1grafo). - O artigo 7, ponto 2 parece-me chocar com a no=E7=E3o de "Utiliza=E7=F5es Livres" (art. 189 do c=F3digo), uma vez que d=E1 ao detentor do direito de autor a possibilidade de definir "informa=E7=F5es acerca das condi=E7=F5es = e modalidades de utiliza=E7=E3o da obra ou do material protegido". Vai ficar definido que as "Utiliza=E7=F5es Livres" permanecem v=E1lidas, ou vai-se da= r ao detentor do direito de autor o poder de as eliminar? - Se bem percebi, o artigo 8, ponto 3 torna fornecedores de servi=E7os, como as empresas de telecomunica=E7=F5es que d=EAem acesso =E0 Internet, c=FAmplices de um crime cometido por um dos seus clientes. Estou certo ? Nos EUA esta situa=E7=E3o resultou num mecanismo de presump=E7=E3o de culpa= : perante uma queixa de uma empresa de media os fornecedores de servi=E7os v=EAem-se obrigados a escolher entre defender em tribunal o seus cliente e serem processados pela empresa de media ou fechar o acesso ao cliente acusado. Tendo em conta o n=EDvel de receitas actuais de um cliente de um ISP =E9 para eles menos arriscado fecharem a conta ao cliente, independentemente da sua culpa ou n=E3o. J=E1 aconteceu a v=E1rias pessoas. Gostaria de saber se vai ser feito algo para evitar esta situa=E7=E3o em Portugal? Tenho mais umas perguntas, mas estas s=E3o as mais importantes. Em qualquer caso gostava de, se poss=EDvel, marcar uma reuni=E3o com algu=E9m = do Gabinete de Direitos de Autor de forma a, se poss=EDvel, esclarecer as minhas outras d=FAvidas (estas relacionam-se mais com o impacto expl=EDcito na =E1rea da inform=E1tica, seguran=E7a e software livre). =09 Desde j=E1 o meu obrigado, --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-fIMMENk9UbGoSta7hnHj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informa=E7=F5es veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8y9w1GFkMfesLN9wRAo7kAJ4+tyLR9KG13ONOQCpoxgxkz3/QtACfSYb8 tQeS/N0VNGCUQxTw2T4L60M=3D =3Dg8eH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-fIMMENk9UbGoSta7hnHj-- --=-3T/XLsHsvZiLxDCOqM5x-- --=-21WvrOZs0bkAAdxNJCn0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8y90XGFkMfesLN9wRAlzYAJ94sK7H323SFQaN+UAWLxqaqBlCPwCeOH/L vfT3DzBJAZqDiNhVAA2Lk/8= =JPFB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-21WvrOZs0bkAAdxNJCn0-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sun Apr 28 19:23:02 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sun Apr 28 18:23:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL Message-ID: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Esta também é uma associação da área cientifica: Associação Portuguesa de Astrónomos Amadores: http://www.apaa.rcts.pt/ A nossa não poderia também ter o apoio da RCTS em termos de servidor? 1, Lopo From aife arroba netvisao.pt Sun Apr 28 19:45:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Sun Apr 28 18:45:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novas entradas no SLP... Message-ID: Caros colegas de lista, Acabaram de ser introduzidas 6 novas entradas na lista de software livre português. Algumas das entradas apresentam dúvidas no aspecto de quais licenças estão aplicadas... Infelizmente, parece-me que muitas das pessoas que disponibilizam o código dos seus programas não têm consciencia dos abusos a que o seu código pode ser sujeito, e não se protegem, nem aos seus colaboradores ao não adoptarem uma licença. (GPL, OpenSource, etc, em que as 4 liberdades são protegidas...). Um abraço, André Esteves From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sun Apr 28 21:28:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sun Apr 28 20:28:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Possibilidade de manutenção legal do Software Livre Message-ID: <008c01c1eee9$f9e7e740$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> "A maior parte das pessoas está consciente de que todo software requer manutenção técnica permanente, ou ele vai rapidamente perder sua utilidade. Em geral, apenas software que receba permanente manutenção pode ser empregado por períodos de tempo mais longos. Esse procedimento técnico depende do acesso ao código fonte e o direito -- isto é: a liberdade -- de realizar a manutenção. Em termos gerais, o que o sistema político-jurídico faz é definir os direitos e os deveres de cada membro da sociedade. O ponto importante aqui (...)" in http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-38.pt.html From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 28 22:00:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 28 21:00:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Novas entradas no SLP... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1020023649.1854.109.camel@central> --=-eI8i9HTlbM77HubYcgKQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dom, 2002-04-28 at 18:41, Andr=E9 Esteves wrote: > Caros colegas de lista, >=20 > Acabaram de ser introduzidas 6 novas entradas na lista de software livre=20 > portugu=EAs. Algumas das entradas apresentam d=FAvidas no aspecto de quai= s=20 > licen=E7as est=E3o aplicadas... >=20 > Infelizmente, parece-me que muitas das pessoas que disponibilizam o c=F3d= igo=20 > dos seus programas n=E3o t=EAm consciencia dos abusos a que o seu c=F3dig= o pode ser=20 > sujeito, e n=E3o se protegem, nem aos seus colaboradores ao n=E3o adoptar= em uma=20 > licen=E7a. (GPL, OpenSource, etc, em que as 4 liberdades s=E3o protegidas= ...). >=20 Se n=E3o est=E1 definida a licen=E7a, n=E3o ponhas na lista. Se n=E3o est= =E1 definida uma licen=E7a, nem o autor diz que o software est=E1 no dom=EDnio p=FAblico ent=E3o copiares o software do site =E9 ILEGAL. Claro que aconsel= ho a tentar explicar (1) porque =E9 que ele deve usar uma licen=E7a e (2) porque essa licen=E7a deve ser de Software Livre. Normalmente essas situa=E7=F5es acontecem por ignor=E2ncia, portanto a medida correcta a toma= r =E9 educar. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-eI8i9HTlbM77HubYcgKQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8zFNgGFkMfesLN9wRAnQxAJ9ECPty4pe3Tv/Ac3HXRt4kxyMLPACfVK4D M5jvM2WHh4QfATizE2lRacg= =qbNz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eI8i9HTlbM77HubYcgKQ-- From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 28 22:05:01 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 28 21:05:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1020023971.1854.114.camel@central> --=-pp0HIEPhzj4sqcs8TkMq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dom, 2002-04-28 at 18:16, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > Esta tamb=E9m =E9 uma associa=E7=E3o da =E1rea cientifica: >=20 > Associa=E7=E3o Portuguesa de Astr=F3nomos Amadores: http://www.apaa.= rcts.pt/ >=20 > A nossa n=E3o poderia tamb=E9m ter o apoio da RCTS em termos de servidor? >=20 Por agora n=E3o temos qualquer necessidade disso. O site da ANSOL est=E1 alojado gratuitamente num servidor da Netureza (a empresa do Ruben) que tamb=E9m nos ofereceu o registo do dom=EDnio. J=E1 agora, penso que devemos, pelo menos, um obrigado ao Ruben por esta oferta. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-pp0HIEPhzj4sqcs8TkMq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8zFSjGFkMfesLN9wRAlRzAJ9G6S4pwuesNRUifmpSnmK+I46kGQCfSPxH PApdIEA+uDMNWUvHVKYjexU= =ilAr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-pp0HIEPhzj4sqcs8TkMq-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Sun Apr 28 23:46:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sun Apr 28 22:46:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL References: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1020023971.1854.114.camel@central> Message-ID: <00a001c1eefd$40f32e20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Sim! Também acho que devemos agradecer ao Ruben, mas... 1. Tu estás a falar de um aspecto de necessidade técnica; 2. Eu estou a falar de um aspecto de necessidade política; 1. Técnicamente estamos bem assim. E até temos mais controle sobre o que está instalado. 2. O facto da ANSOL estar na RCTS é muito significativo, a nível institucional, porque: a) é sinónimo de reconhecimento, de facto, da sua credibilidade junto do Estado; b) poderá beneficiar de outras facilidades em futuras negociações com o Estado ou outras entidades. Isto é só a minha opinião. Numa Associação deste género 5% serão questões técnicas e o resto é política. 1, Lopo From joao arroba silvaneves.org Sun Apr 28 23:55:02 2002 From: joao arroba silvaneves.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o?= Miguel Neves) Date: Sun Apr 28 22:55:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <00a001c1eefd$40f32e20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1020023971.1854.114.camel@central> <00a001c1eefd$40f32e20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <1020030578.1852.175.camel@central> --=-C9N0oYFy5OUJSryvfm6w Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dom, 2002-04-28 at 22:39, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > 1. Tu est=E1s a falar de um aspecto de necessidade t=E9cnica; > 2. Eu estou a falar de um aspecto de necessidade pol=EDtica; >=20 Tens raz=E3o, se tivesse percebido isso tinha-me mandado aos arames logo = =E0 primeira :). > 2. O facto da ANSOL estar na RCTS =E9 muito significativo, a n=EDvel > institucional, porque: > a) =E9 sin=F3nimo de reconhecimento, de facto, da sua credibilidade junto= do > Estado; > b) poder=E1 beneficiar de outras facilidades em futuras negocia=E7=F5es c= om o > Estado ou outras entidades. >=20 A RCTS =E9 uma rede de escolas secund=E1rias. Se queres ter um aspecto profissional e n=E3o acad=E9mico n=E3o queres estar debaixo do estado, muit= o menos dependente de uma estrutura altamente politizada como =E9 a FCCN. Para n=E3o falar na baixa qualidade do servi=E7o, a AUP (Acceptable User Policy) da FCCN =E9 demasiado restrita para os nossos fins. Honestamente, preferia pagar a estar dependente da FCCN. Essa =E9 uma das raz=F5es porque pago, desde sempre, pelo silvaneves.org. --=20 Jo=E3o Miguel Neves --=-C9N0oYFy5OUJSryvfm6w Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Para mais informações veja http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8zG5yGFkMfesLN9wRAlCMAJ91Z8fMJ0zjXVIPj2z6MMnWTRu0XQCeP9W1 ouUuU9HGb4DWNiMSRpkgkEE= =chB1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-C9N0oYFy5OUJSryvfm6w-- From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Mon Apr 29 00:03:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Sun Apr 28 23:03:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL References: <006801c1eed8$86d16120$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt><1020023971.1854.114.camel@central> <00a001c1eefd$40f32e20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1020030578.1852.175.camel@central> Message-ID: <00dc01c1eeff$8908a1c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Então pronto! Se não dá, não dá :-( É pena, mas tens razão. Eu pensei que a RCTS fosse mais abrangente :-\ Nem propus a FCCN porque também não gostei muito da atitude deles em algumas ocasiões particulares e a AUP é realmente um "issue". 1, Lopo ----- Original Message ----- From: "João Miguel Neves" To: "Lopo de Almeida" Cc: "Lista ANSOL Geral" Sent: Domingo, 28 de Abril de 2002 22:49 Subject: Re: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL On Dom, 2002-04-28 at 22:39, Lopo de Almeida wrote: > 1. Tu estás a falar de um aspecto de necessidade técnica; > 2. Eu estou a falar de um aspecto de necessidade política; > Tens razão, se tivesse percebido isso tinha-me mandado aos arames logo à primeira :). > 2. O facto da ANSOL estar na RCTS é muito significativo, a nível > institucional, porque: > a) é sinónimo de reconhecimento, de facto, da sua credibilidade junto do > Estado; > b) poderá beneficiar de outras facilidades em futuras negociações com o > Estado ou outras entidades. > A RCTS é uma rede de escolas secundárias. Se queres ter um aspecto profissional e não académico não queres estar debaixo do estado, muito menos dependente de uma estrutura altamente politizada como é a FCCN. Para não falar na baixa qualidade do serviço, a AUP (Acceptable User Policy) da FCCN é demasiado restrita para os nossos fins. Honestamente, preferia pagar a estar dependente da FCCN. Essa é uma das razões porque pago, desde sempre, pelo silvaneves.org. -- João Miguel Neves From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Mon Apr 29 00:19:02 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Sun Apr 28 23:19:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]O site da ANSOL In-Reply-To: <00dc01c1eeff$8908a1c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> References: <00a001c1eefd$40f32e20$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> <1020030578.1852.175.camel@central> <00dc01c1eeff$8908a1c0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Message-ID: <20020428221338.GJ4913@artenumerica.com> * Lopo de Almeida [2002-04-28 22:56 +0000]: > Então pronto! Se não dá, não dá :-( > > É pena, mas tens razão. Eu pensei que a RCTS fosse mais abrangente :-\ Creio que a RCTS hoje em dia (ou uma tal RCTS2?) também é o nome usado para a rede que chega às universidades e institutos (ex-RCCN). > Nem propus a FCCN porque também não gostei muito da atitude deles em algumas > ocasiões particulares e a AUP é realmente um "issue". Não é tudo isso FCCN? Por acaso também acho preferível, pessoalmente, ter uma quota mais cara se for necessário pagar o alojamento do que ficarmos com uma "dependência" em relação a uma borla da FCCN. Em ambiente universitário (sob a FCCN mas menos directamente, portanto) talvez se conseguisse também, num ou outro sítio, boa vontade para o alojamento, mas por aí problemas "políticos" também podem surgir, inclusivamente para quem no local serviu de "patrono" para o alojamento (lembro-me por exemplo do caso Gildot-Comunicus). Claro que se pode ir mudando o alojamento, mas se se puder prevenir preocupações a todas as partes... TTFN JM From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 29 01:12:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 29 00:12:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Outra =?iso-8859-15?q?vers=E3o=20do=20An=FAncio=20do=20Concurso=20do?= logotipo Message-ID: Caros colegas de lista, Segue mais uma versão do anúncio do concurso de logotipo da ANSOL. Este aqui segue com mais logotipos, como o Mário Gamito sugeriu. Já que ele não quis apresentar a sua própria versão, tomei a iniciativa de a implementar, pois a ídeia é boa. Um abraço, André Esteves From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 29 02:15:02 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 29 01:15:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]=?iso-8859-15?q?V=E3o=20ter=20que=20ter?= =?iso-8859-15?q?=20paci=EAncia=2E=2E=2E?= Message-ID: Desculpem lá, Mas o ficheiro com os attachments está pendente para inspecção pelo gestor da lista... Vão ter que esperar, até que passe... Se alguém estiver interessado, posso perfeitamente mandar os ficheiros. Um abraço, André Esteves From aife arroba netvisao.pt Mon Apr 29 15:30:01 2002 From: aife arroba netvisao.pt (=?iso-8859-15?q?Andr=E9=20Esteves?=) Date: Mon Apr 29 14:30:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Estou em estado larvar =?iso-8859-15?q?at=E9?= domingo... Message-ID: Caros colegas de lista, Estou em estado larvar até domingo, por isso se precisarem de mim... (ai) Como já enviei as imagens do poster do concurso a várias pessoas da lista, se estiverem interessados, façam um pedido na lista para que eles vos enviem os respectivos ficheiros. Descobri várias novas entradas muito interessantes (um ray-tracer, clientes de estatísticas e drivers para linux), mas que vão ter que esperar... Um abraço, André Esteves From Diogo Santos Mon Apr 29 18:27:02 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Mon Apr 29 17:27:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]GNU/LINUX poupa 1 milhão de euros ao estado português Message-ID: Temos aqui um grande argumento para usar (ultimos 3 paragrafos) http://jornal.publico.pt/2002/04/29/Computadores/TI03.html Fiquem bem! -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt From Hugo Nogueira Mon Apr 29 19:05:01 2002 From: Hugo Nogueira (Hugo Nogueira) Date: Mon Apr 29 18:05:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]GNU/LINUX poupa 1 =?iso-8859-1?q?milh=E3o=20de=20euros=20ao=20estado?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=20portugu=EAs?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CCA4EB00000FB46@mail.libertysurf.net> (added by postmaster@libertysurf.fr) > http://jornal.publico.pt/2002/04/29/Computadores/TI03.html Yeeeeesss :-) Faz bem ver coisas concretizarem-se assim :-)) Parabems :) Hugo. From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Mon Apr 29 21:01:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Mon Apr 29 20:01:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupo de Trabalho Message-ID: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> Proposta de cria=E7=E3o de Grupo de Trabalho =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Apenas agora, num artigo do Gildot, tive contacto com uma ideia que deve = ser velha como o mundo: Distribuir CDs de software "alternativo" para correr= nos sistemas operativos "habituais". Como me parece uma ideia boa, simples e barata, porponho a cria=E7=E3o dum grupo de trabalho para a concretizar -= - ou seja, desejo sondar o interesse das pessoas na ideia e, claro, em trabalhar par= a a concretizar! Pessoalmente tenho muito pouco tempo, mas pode ser que com = um pouco de disciplina consiga fazer qualquer coisa... Passo a esquematizar o que me ocorre acerca do grupo de trabalho. Todas = as criticas sao benvindas. * * * I. Objectivos ------------- O *objectivo principal* =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o de software alternativo ao d= ominante e "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secund=E1rio =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o = de software "absolutamente" livre. =C9 importante ter presente esta ordem de priorid= ades: A primeira prioridade n=E3o deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. Deseja-se acima de tudo compilar um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es dispon=EDv= eis para sistema Windows, que sejam suficientemente interessantes para levar as pe= ssoas a us=E1-las em vez de usar as habituais. =C9 *crucial* ter presente que = essas aplica=E7=F5es v=E3o concorrer com as nativas de Windows pela aten=E7=E3o= das pessoas, portanto n=E3o devemos ter qualquer pudor em recorrer a aplica=E7=F5es qu= e n=E3o cumpram inteiramente o segundo objectivo, sob pena de desinteressar o "cl= iente" por o confrontar apenas com alternativas claramente inferiores. II. Tarefas ----------- 1- Inventariar software dispon=EDvel para sistema Windows que respeite o requisito fundamental de poder ser copiado livremente para uso privado. 2- Seleccionar as coisas mais interessantes (as "killer applications") de= entre o software inventariado. Essas s=E3o as que t=EAm prioridade na atribui=E7= =E3o de espa=E7o do CD (que deve ser um =FAnico). 3- Testar as aplica=E7=F5es. Conv=E9m ver pelo menos uma vez os programa= s a correr em Windows. Nesta fase conv=E9m tamb=E9m criticar ferozmente as aplica=E7= =F5es que se est=E3o a testar, comparando-as com as suas concorrentes directas. Por e= xemplo, uma killer application =F3bvia =E9 um browser de HTML, mas se ele for pio= r que o IE nativo, perde muitos pontos de "prioridade". 4- Compilar o CD e fazer meia-d=FAzia de c=F3pias. Compilar um documento= em HTML para documentar o conte=FAdo do CD. Essa documenta=E7=E3o pode consistir essencialemnte de links para a documenta=E7=E3o original online, e pode s= er inclu=EDda no CD e mantida online na "p=E1gina do CD" (se tal p=E1gina vi= er a existir). Compilar tamb=E9m documenta=E7=E3o e links para os documentos = que nos interessa divulgar (essencialmente, documentos sobre software livre e a s= ua filosofia). 5- Distribuir as c=F3pias pelos amigos e deixar que sejam eles a fazer c=F3= pias e distribuam pelos amigos deles, etc.. [A prop=F3sito, era giro incluir no CD o necess=E1rio para imprimir os se= us pr=F3prios label e capa!] III. Prazos ----------- Ainda sem definir nada de r=EDgido, julgo que ter o CD pronto antes do Na= tal deste ano era interessante, para aproveitar o movimento da =E9poca. * * * O projecto como o descrevi =E9 auto-suficiente, mas podem ser-lhe acresce= ntadas diversas melhorias. Por exemplo, seria interessante ter o patroc=EDnio d= um jornal ou revista para divulga=E7=E3o do CD. De vez em quando o Di=E1rio= de Not=EDcias inclui na edi=E7=E3o CDs variados, que as pessoas podem comprar se quiser= em, pagando mais um euro. Diversas outras ideias podem surgir mas, sem as qu= erer reprimir, sublinho que o projecto tal como o descrevi pode avan=E7ar *j=E1= * sem precisar de muitas ideias mais. A minha principal preocupa=E7=E3o =E9 com a seguran=E7a e a responsabilid= ade: Se algu=E9m tiver problemas com o seu sistema por meter nele software do CD,= de quem =E9 a responsabilidade? Conv=E9m que este g=E9nero de quest=F5es seja mu= ito bem esclarecido! Subversivamente, Sebrosa From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Mon Apr 29 21:23:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Mon Apr 29 20:23:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta =?iso-8859-1?Q?d?= =?iso-8859-1?B?ZSBjcmlh5+Nv?= de Grupo de Trabalho In-Reply-To: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020429191659.GV4913@artenumerica.com> * Jose' Sebrosa [2002-04-29 19:56 +0000]: > O *objectivo principal* é a divulgação de software alternativo ao dominante e > "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secundário é a divulgação de software > "absolutamente" livre. É importante ter presente esta ordem de prioridades: A > primeira prioridade não deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. Tens um problema imediato com algum software eventualmente "mais livre" mas que não é software livre: tem que ser pelo menos "suficientemente livre" para poder ser distribuído como propões a seguir... No fim, talvez o mais simples seja mesmo restringir a software livre para evitar as complicações legais e múltiplos contactos com cada autor/empresa... E por outro lado também porque a ser iniciativa com "etiqueta" da ANSOL seria estranho aparecer, por exemplo, material shareware (e, especialmente irritante, shareware do género crippleware ou annoyware, se é que ainda há shareware sem ser deste...). Lembro-me por exemplo do Kermit (não sei como é agora a licença); se me lembro bem, podia ser copiado livremente desde que não se cobrasse nada ao passá-lo a outra pessoa. Isso impedia a inclusão em qualquer CD que se vendesse... e na Debian acabava por ter de ir parar ao conjunto "non-free". De qualquer forma, suponho que há uma dose de goodies livres livres q.b. para captar o interesse de alguns utilizadores Windows. From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 03:13:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 02:13:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupo de Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <20020429191659.GV4913@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <3CCDEEBB.6E960DFC@artenumerica.com> J M Cerqueira Esteves wrote: >=20 > * Jose' Sebrosa [2002-04-29 19:56 +0000]: > > O *objectivo principal* =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o de software alternativo = ao dominante e > > "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secund=E1rio =E9 a divulga=E7=E3= o de software > > "absolutamente" livre. =C9 importante ter presente esta ordem de pri= oridades: A > > primeira prioridade n=E3o deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. >=20 > Tens um problema imediato com algum software eventualmente "mais > livre" mas que n=E3o =E9 software livre: tem que ser pelo menos > "suficientemente livre" para poder ser distribu=EDdo como prop=F5es a > seguir... A *=FAnica* restricao =E9 a de o software estar dispon=EDvel sob uma lice= n=E7a que permite uma c=F3pia e distribui=E7=E3o como a descrita no resto. Se por = acaso se verificar que, em cada caso analisado, respeitar esta restri=E7=E3o coinc= ide com respeitar GPL, porreiro. Mas ser=E1 uma coincid=EAncia. Importa *muito* definir claramente o que =E9 o objectivo, e distingui-lo = das coisas que podem acontecer por acaso. O objectivo *n=E3o =E9* divulgar software que respeite as 4 liberdades. = O objectivo =E9 cativar pessoas para o uso de bom software, "mais" livre do= que o que elas iriam usar, e que =E9 suficientemente bom para o substituir. Por exemplo, imagina que h=E1 um "office" que respeita as 4 liberdades e,= ao lado, outro que =E9 melhor, que n=E3o as respeita todas mas que permite a distribui=E7=E3o e c=F3pia como a necess=E1ria. =C9 inaceit=E1vel "engan= ar" o utilizador fornecendo-lhe um produto pior s=F3 porque respeita as 4 liberdades, at=E9= porque os utilizadores em que estou a pensar se est=E3o nas tintas para algumas = dessas liberdades -- ele quer =E9 usar o software, est=E1-se nas tintas para a s= ource e se calhar at=E9 ia recorrer a c=F3pias piratas! O que =E9 importante =E9 que o *utilizador* fique *bem servido*. O *cruc= ial* =E9 que o utilizador *adopte* o CD e o passe aos amigos. Isso ser=E1 o que se ch= ama "uma lan=E7a em =C1frica": coloca-se mais uma pessoa em contacto com aquilo q= ue nos interessa. O resto vir=E1 mais tarde. Insisto: O que =E9 crucial =E9 que o *utilizador* fique bem servido. Ta= lvez (numa prespectiva excessivamente reducionista) a ANSOL ache que fica, ela, mais= bem servida se apenas fornecer software que respeita as 4 liberdades. Este par=E1grafo de insist=EAncia serve para sublinhar que o que importa mais = =E9 servir bem *o utilizador*. O que importa mais *a seguir* =E9 servir bem a ANSOL= . Ter no=E7=E3o de que esta *=E9* a ordem de import=E2ncia =E9 *vital*. Colocando a coisa noutros termos: Se a ANSOL fizer um CD cegamente restr= ito =E0s 4 liberdades e "eu" (um gajo qualquer) ao lado fizer um CD em que algum software =E9 substitu=EDdo por outro *melhor*, e se um utilizador tiver possibilidade de escolher entre eles, o que =E9 que ele escolhe? Escolhe= o "meu", claro! Entender isto =E9 important=EDssimo, pois o utilizador j=E1 vai estar =E0= partida a comparar o CD que receber com as outras alternativas que tem, frequenteme= nte incorporadas no pr=F3prio sistema operativo que usa. Se n=F3s nos coloca= mos na posi=E7=E3o de prescindir de armas =E0 partida, nem vale a pena ir =E0 gu= erra. Neste caso, "armas" =E9 equivalente a "o melhor software dispon=EDvel". > No fim, talvez o mais simples seja mesmo restringir a > software livre para evitar as complica=E7=F5es legais e m=FAltiplos > contactos com cada autor/empresa... E por outro lado tamb=E9m porque a > ser iniciativa com "etiqueta" da ANSOL seria estranho aparecer, por > exemplo, material shareware (e, especialmente irritante, shareware do > g=E9nero crippleware ou annoyware, se =E9 que ainda h=E1 shareware sem = ser > deste...). Crippleware =E9 aceit=E1vel desde que a parte funcional seja *melhor* que= as alternativas. Annoyware =E9 inaceit=E1vel porque, por defini=E7=E3o, n=E3= o tem qualidade. A n=E3o ser que n=E3o haja nada para o substituir. S=E3o tu= do coisas a ver caso a caso. Seja como f=F4r (e esta =E9 a parte mais importante), se se tiver *bem pr= esente* o objectivo principal, as decis=F5es s=E3o f=E1ceis de tomar *caso a caso*. > Lembro-me por exemplo do Kermit (n=E3o sei como =E9 agora a licen=E7a); > se me lembro bem, podia ser copiado livremente desde que n=E3o se > cobrasse nada ao pass=E1-lo a outra pessoa. Isso impedia a inclus=E3o = em > qualquer CD que se vendesse... e na Debian acabava por ter de ir parar > ao conjunto "non-free". >=20 > De qualquer forma, suponho que h=E1 uma dose de goodies livres livres > q.b. para captar o interesse de alguns utilizadores Windows. Espero que sim, mas como n=E3o conhe=E7o a maioria dos casos concretos, s= alvaguardo a hip=F3tese de n=E3o haver neste on naquele caso. =C9 para essas situa=E7= =F5es nebulosas que =E9 *vital* saber-se bem o que =E9 que se quer (ie, saber b= em qual =E9 o *objectivo*), para que as decis=F5es sejam tomadas com a orienta=E7=E3o= geral correcta. Sebrosa From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 03:13:08 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 02:13:08 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupo de Trabalho References: <200204292003.VAA17900@spf.pt> Message-ID: <3CCDEEBC.17A33C04@artenumerica.com> Diogo Santos wrote: >=20 > Ol=E1 a todos os membros da lista! S=F3 mandaste para mim, n=E3o para a lista... portanto eu incluo aqui tu= do o que me enviaste, mesmo o que n=E3o =E9 relevante para o coment=E1rio que insi= ro. > > Apenas agora, num artigo do Gildot, tive contacto com uma ideia que d= eve ser > > velha como o mundo: Distribuir CDs de software "alternativo" para co= rrer nos >=20 > > sistemas operativos "habituais". Como me parece uma ideia boa, simpl= es e > > barata, porponho a cria=E7=E3o dum grupo de trabalho para a concretiz= ar -- ou > seja, > > desejo sondar o interesse das pessoas na ideia e, claro, em trabalhar= para a > > concretizar! Pessoalmente tenho muito pouco tempo, mas pode ser que = com um > > pouco de disciplina consiga fazer qualquer coisa... >=20 > Apesar de "velha" parece-me uma boa ideia >=20 > > I. Objectivos > > ------------- > > > > O *objectivo principal* =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o de software alternativo = ao dominante e >=20 > > "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secund=E1rio =E9 a divulga=E7=E3= o de software > > "absolutamente" livre. =C9 importante ter presente esta ordem de pri= oridades: > A > > primeira prioridade n=E3o deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. >=20 > "Mais livre" =E9 !=3D de livre?? Sim: =E9 diferente de "livre" no sentido de "respeitar integralmente as = 4 liberdades". > Julgo que a ANSOL n=E3o deve promover software que n=E3o respeite as q= uatro > liberdades. Por v=E1rias raz=F5es: > - A ANSOL destina-se a promover o Software Livre, a promo=E7=E3o de so= ftware n=E3o > livre, parece-me fora do ambito de ac=E7=E3o da ANSOL. Estritamente, tens raz=E3o. No entanto, para o prop=F3sito espec=EDfico = deste projecto, as liberdades realmente necess=E1rias s=E3o a terceira das quat= ro (liberdade de distribui=E7=E3o), mais uma que n=E3o est=E1 nas quatro: l= iberdade de distribui=E7=E3o *gratuita*. Tamb=E9m tem interesse a primeira liberdade= (de uso para qualquer fim), mas essa n=E3o =E9 estritamente vital (o que =E9 vita= l =E9 que haja liberdade de uso para os fins que interessam). Nota que o prop=F3sito espec=EDfico deste projecto =E9 o de colocar "n=E3= o baptizados" em contacto com a "f=E9". At=E9 os mission=E1rios cat=F3licos dos descob= rimentos (=E9poca supostamente muito mais intolerante do que a nossa), ao chegar a= terras de gente n=E3o crist=E3, foram suficientemente s=E1bios para permitir a m= anuten=E7=E3o de h=E1bitos culturais "=EDmpios". A coisa avan=E7a aos poucos. > - A promo=E7=E3o de software n=E3o livre por parte da ANSOL, pode gera= r ainda mais > confus=E3o, para quem n=E3o sabe o que =E9 Software Livre, passando a d= e um possiv=E9l > "n=E3o sei o que =E9 isso. Ensina-me, por favor", para uma defeni=E7=E3= o errada do que > =E9 o Software Livre. A maior confus=E3o adv=E9m do facto de n=E3o haver qualquer contacto. Ha= ver contacto =E9 o primeiro passo fundamental para se poderem esclarecer todas as conf= us=F5es. > > Deseja-se acima de tudo compilar um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es dispon= =EDveis para > > sistema Windows, que sejam suficientemente interessantes para levar a= s > pessoas > > a us=E1-las em vez de usar as habituais. =C9 *crucial* ter presente = que essas > > aplica=E7=F5es v=E3o concorrer com as nativas de Windows pela aten=E7= =E3o das pessoas, >=20 > Concordo, com o que est=E1 a cima. >=20 > > 1- Inventariar software dispon=EDvel para sistema Windows que respeit= e >=20 > as 4 liberdades N=E3o =E9 estritamente necess=E1rio. Mais importante: N=E3o nos devemos auto-limitar, prejudicando os objecti= vos principais. Eu sei que temos uma grande vantagem de quota de mercado sob= re a M$ [smile here], mas j=E1 que vamos correr =E9 bom n=E3o ir ao p=E9-coxin= ho... > > 2- Seleccionar as coisas mais interessantes (as "killer applications"= ) de > entre > > o software inventariado. Essas s=E3o as que t=EAm prioridade na atri= bui=E7=E3o de > > espa=E7o do CD (que deve ser um =FAnico). > > > > 3- Testar as aplica=E7=F5es. Conv=E9m ver pelo menos uma vez os prog= ramas a correr >=20 > > em Windows. Nesta fase conv=E9m tamb=E9m criticar ferozmente as apli= ca=E7=F5es que > se > > est=E3o a testar, comparando-as com as suas concorrentes directas. P= or > exemplo, > > uma killer application =F3bvia =E9 um browser de HTML, mas se ele for= pior que o > IE > > nativo, perde muitos pontos de "prioridade". > > > > 4- Compilar o CD e fazer meia-d=FAzia de c=F3pias. Compilar um docum= ento em HTML >=20 > > para documentar o conte=FAdo do CD. Essa documenta=E7=E3o pode consis= tir > > essencialemnte de links para a documenta=E7=E3o original online, e po= de ser > > inclu=EDda no CD e mantida online na "p=E1gina do CD" (se tal p=E1gin= a vier a > > existir). Compilar tamb=E9m documenta=E7=E3o e links para os documen= tos que nos > > interessa divulgar (essencialmente, documentos sobre software livre e= a sua > > filosofia). > > > > 5- Distribuir as c=F3pias pelos amigos e deixar que sejam eles a faze= r c=F3pias e >=20 > > distribuam pelos amigos deles, etc.. > > [A prop=F3sito, era giro incluir no CD o necess=E1rio para imprimir o= s seus > > pr=F3prios label e capa!] > > > > > > III. Prazos > > ----------- > > > > Ainda sem definir nada de r=EDgido, julgo que ter o CD pronto antes d= o Natal > > deste ano era interessante, para aproveitar o movimento da =E9poca. > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > O projecto como o descrevi =E9 auto-suficiente, mas podem ser-lhe acr= escentadas >=20 > > diversas melhorias. Por exemplo, seria interessante ter o patroc=EDn= io dum > > jornal ou revista para divulga=E7=E3o do CD. De vez em quando o Di=E1= rio de > Not=EDcias > > inclui na edi=E7=E3o CDs variados, que as pessoas podem comprar se qu= iserem, > > pagando mais um euro. Diversas outras ideias podem surgir mas, sem a= s querer >=20 > > reprimir, sublinho que o projecto tal como o descrevi pode avan=E7ar = *j=E1* sem > > precisar de muitas ideias mais. > > > > A minha principal preocupa=E7=E3o =E9 com a seguran=E7a e a responsab= ilidade: Se > > algu=E9m tiver problemas com o seu sistema por meter nele software do= CD, de > quem > > =E9 a responsabilidade? Conv=E9m que este g=E9nero de quest=F5es sej= a muito bem > > esclarecido! > > > > > > Subversivamente, > > Sebrosa > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ansol-geral mailing list > > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral >=20 > Concordo. >=20 > Poderiamos ap=F3s de lan=E7ar um CD gen=E9rico , ter um CD para cada a= rea (design, > programa=E7=E3o, gest=E3o, ofimatica, jogos, etc...). Mas isto s=E3o vo= os mais altos, > para um futuro ainda long=EDnquo. Sim, tenho esperan=E7a de encher rapidamente os 650MB dum CD com goodies.= .. :^) > A ideia =E9 boa, mas devemos restringir-nos ao Software Livre. Alem di= sso como > j=E1 foi dito, na maioria dos casos, h=E1 Software Livre suficientement= e bom para > competir com o propriet=E1rio. Se houver, melhor. Mas se n=E3o houver, n=E3o nos devemos limitar. Sen=E3= o esse CD (mais limitado) ir=E1 facilmente (e desnecessariamente) ser desacretitado= pela exist=EAncia doutras vers=F5es, elaboradas com mais aten=E7=E3o =E0s nece= ssidades concretas dos utilizadores e menos limitadas por uma filosofia excessivam= ente estrita ("excessivamente" se tivermos na devida conta o caso concreto ao = qual ela estaria a ser (mal) aplicada). Sebrosa > Fiquem bem! >=20 > Diogo Santos From figueira arroba europe.com Tue Apr 30 03:36:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Tue Apr 30 02:36:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]logotipo e legalidades (actas, estatutos) Message-ID: <1020130154.3463.18.camel@jung> Viva, Este fim de semana prolongado estive off, por quest=F5es de manuten=E7=E3o = da minha (prec=E1ria?) sa=FAde mental. Tr=EAs coisitas: 1) Logotipo Se a coisa do concurso n=E3o resultar satisfat=F3riamente, tenho quem nos fa=E7a um logotipo com garantia de qualidade e profissionalismo, por EUR 250. Trabalha em Mac e exporta em tudo o que quisermos. S=F3 um "fallback", no caso de o concurso n=E3o resultar e, por milagre, tivermos dinheiro na conta. 2) Actas Estive a falar com uma amiga advogada, que me elucidou sobre algumas coisas importantes nomeadamente a quest=E3o das actas. Ao que parece h=E1 agora um novo tipo de livros de actas que n=E3o precisam de ser manuscritos, apenas impressos em computador, que s=E3o assinados por quem de direito e s=E3o arquivados num dossier especial. Basta-lhes um termo de abertura e um de fecho (por confirmar). E sim, isso n=E3o =E9 tratado nos not=E1rios, mas na conservat=F3ria do registo comercial. Amanh=E3 dou-lhe uma telefonada e fica tudo limpinho. Com sorte ainda vou =E0 conservat=F3ria na quinta. 3) Estatutos anti-takeover Ao que parece a coisa =E9 bastante mais complicada do que pens=E1vamos. H= =E1 alguns princ=EDpios estabelecidos na legisla=E7=E3o (dispersa) que viol=E1v= amos se mantiv=E9ssemos os estatutos *anti-takeover* que temos *em prepara=E7=E3= o*. Os actuais est=E3o ok. Mais sobre isto num pr=F3ximo epis=F3dio, uma vez que ela ficou de me emprestar um livro que re=FAne toda a legisla=E7=E3o referente =E0s associa=E7=F5esl, o qual precisar=E1 de adequada digest=E3o. --=20 Cumprimentos, Vasco Figueira From figueira arroba europe.com Tue Apr 30 04:01:02 2002 From: figueira arroba europe.com (Vasco Figueira) Date: Tue Apr 30 03:01:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupo de Trabalho In-Reply-To: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> Viva, On Mon, 2002-04-29 at 19:56, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > Proposta de cria=E7=E3o de Grupo de Trabalho > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C9 sempre bom ver os primeiros passos oficiais das coisas. :-) > I. Objectivos > ------------- >=20 > O *objectivo principal* =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o de software alternativo ao d= ominante e > "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secund=E1rio =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o = de software > "absolutamente" livre. =C9 importante ter presente esta ordem de priorid= ades: A > primeira prioridade n=E3o deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. Como disse o jmce, "mais livre que" o propriet=E1rio, mas suficientemente livre para poder ser distribu=EDdo, e ser distribu=EDdo pela ANSOL. > Deseja-se acima de tudo compilar um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es dispon=EDv= eis para > sistema Windows, que sejam suficientemente interessantes para levar as pe= ssoas > a us=E1-las em vez de usar as habituais. =C9 *crucial* ter presente que = essas > aplica=E7=F5es v=E3o concorrer com as nativas de Windows pela aten=E7=E3o= das pessoas, > portanto n=E3o devemos ter qualquer pudor em recorrer a aplica=E7=F5es qu= e n=E3o > cumpram inteiramente o segundo objectivo, sob pena de desinteressar o "cl= iente" > por o confrontar apenas com alternativas claramente inferiores. Humm... Tens toda a raz=E3o, mas por outro lado, se apenas conseguimos competir com eles quando prescindimos de algumas liberdades, estamos mal. Eu inclino-me mais para compilar um conjunto de software livre que compita claramente com os seus hom=F3logos, mas dar prioridade =E0queles que s=E3o totalmente livres. Quanto aos que s=E3o livres, mas n=E3o conseguem competir decentemente com os seus pares, bom... n=E3o os colocamos l=E1. Assim n=E3o corremos o risco= de desinteressar o "cliente". > II. Tarefas > ----------- >=20 > 1- Inventariar software dispon=EDvel para sistema Windows que respeite o > requisito fundamental de poder ser copiado livremente para uso privado. Tens no=E7=E3o que isso n=E3o s=F3 =E9 *muito* software, como =E9 tamb=E9m = algo demasiado longe daquilo que =E9 o software livre. Com esse crit=E9rio at=E9 o IE l=E1 tinhas (ou quase, j=E1 n=E3o sei). > 2- > 3- > 4- > 5- Sim. > O projecto como o descrevi =E9 auto-suficiente, mas podem ser-lhe acresce= ntadas > diversas melhorias. Por exemplo, seria interessante ter o patroc=EDnio d= um > jornal ou revista para divulga=E7=E3o do CD. Se as coisas continuarem a evoluir como est=E3o n=E3o tarda temos a debian no p=FAblico. :-) Com jeitinho isso deve-se conseguir. > A minha principal preocupa=E7=E3o =E9 com a seguran=E7a e a responsabilid= ade: Se > algu=E9m tiver problemas com o seu sistema por meter nele software do CD,= de quem > =E9 a responsabilidade? Conv=E9m que este g=E9nero de quest=F5es seja mu= ito bem > esclarecido! Um disclaimerzinho faz as del=EDcias. --=20 Deliciosamente, Vasco Figueira From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 04:42:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 03:42:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3CCE0391.A66DC6DE@artenumerica.com> Vasco Figueira wrote: >=20 > Viva, >=20 > On Mon, 2002-04-29 at 19:56, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > > Proposta de cria=E7=E3o de Grupo de Trabalho > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > =C9 sempre bom ver os primeiros passos oficiais das coisas. :-) >=20 > > I. Objectivos > > ------------- > > > > O *objectivo principal* =E9 a divulga=E7=E3o de software alternativo = ao dominante e > > "mais livre" do que ele. Um objectivo secund=E1rio =E9 a divulga=E7=E3= o de software > > "absolutamente" livre. =C9 importante ter presente esta ordem de pri= oridades: A > > primeira prioridade n=E3o deve ser prejudicada em favor da segunda. >=20 > Como disse o jmce, "mais livre que" o propriet=E1rio, mas suficientemen= te > livre para poder ser distribu=EDdo, e ser distribu=EDdo pela ANSOL. Sim. Faltou-me uma nota na resposta ao jmce: Restringir a escolha a software = livre pode ter interesse para facilitar trabalho (como ele diz), *especificamen= te* (esta =E9 a nota) para facilitar o cumprimento de prazos (ou seja, para q= ue a coisa n=E3o fique a ser planeada para sempre! :^) ). > > Deseja-se acima de tudo compilar um conjunto de aplica=E7=F5es dispon= =EDveis para > > sistema Windows, que sejam suficientemente interessantes para levar a= s pessoas > > a us=E1-las em vez de usar as habituais. =C9 *crucial* ter presente = que essas > > aplica=E7=F5es v=E3o concorrer com as nativas de Windows pela aten=E7= =E3o das pessoas, > > portanto n=E3o devemos ter qualquer pudor em recorrer a aplica=E7=F5e= s que n=E3o > > cumpram inteiramente o segundo objectivo, sob pena de desinteressar o= "cliente" > > por o confrontar apenas com alternativas claramente inferiores. >=20 > Humm... >=20 > Tens toda a raz=E3o, mas por outro lado, se apenas conseguimos competir > com eles quando prescindimos de algumas liberdades, estamos mal. Mas se estivermos mal devido a essas condi=E7=F5es objectivas (n=E3o have= r alternativas livres), n=E3o =E9 por o negar que passamos a ficar melhor!!= Acho que devemos ser pr=E1ticos e lan=E7ar m=E3o do que houver =E0 m=E3o. Pe=E7o que tenham alguma (muita!) paci=EAncia para com a minha ignor=E2nc= ia: Eu n=E3o sei quais s=E3o as licen=E7as concretas da maior parte das coisas. Estou= a pensar numa aplica=E7=E3o que considero crucial incluir num CD destes se f=F4r p= oss=EDvel, mesmo que n=E3o seja t=E3o livre como gostar=EDamos: Openoffice (ou outr= a melhor).=20 Se n=E3o houver um Office GPL, ser=E1 criminoso n=E3o incluir um "suficie= ntemente" GPL. A n=E3o ser que n=E3o se possa mesmo, ou que n=E3o preste de todo! Um office alternativo =E9 suficientemente importante para imp=F4r, por si= s=F3, uma situa=E7=E3o de excep=E7=E3o =E0 exig=EAncia de GPL/4 liberdades. Ele =E9= a killer application de excel=EAncia. > Eu > inclino-me mais para compilar um conjunto de software livre que compita > claramente com os seus hom=F3logos, mas dar prioridade =E0queles que s=E3= o > totalmente livres. Dar prioridade a esses acabar=E1 por ser inevit=E1vel, at=E9 porque =E9 o= que vamos procurar em primeiro lugar e o tempo n=E3o =E9 infinito! :^) > Quanto aos que s=E3o livres, mas n=E3o conseguem competir decentemente = com > os seus pares, bom... n=E3o os colocamos l=E1. Assim n=E3o corremos o r= isco de > desinteressar o "cliente". Cert=EDssimo. > > II. Tarefas > > ----------- > > > > 1- Inventariar software dispon=EDvel para sistema Windows que respeit= e o > > requisito fundamental de poder ser copiado livremente para uso privad= o. >=20 > Tens no=E7=E3o que isso n=E3o s=F3 =E9 *muito* software, como =E9 tamb=E9= m algo > demasiado longe daquilo que =E9 o software livre. Confiemos no nosso bom-senso. =C9 verdade que n=E3o vamos poder fazer o = invent=E1rio de todo o software do planeta... E, caso a caso (nos casos que tivermos = =E0 frente), vamos poder olhar para a licen=E7a e dizer se =E9 demasiado rest= ritiva ou n=E3o. Apenas considero que este "demasiado restritiva" deve ser definid= o de acordo com os interesses supremos do utilizador que queremos cativar, e n= =E3o de acordo com o nosso objectivo =FAltimo de promover o software "inteirament= e" livre. > Com esse crit=E9rio at=E9 o IE l=E1 tinhas (ou quase, j=E1 n=E3o sei). Eheheh! =C9s capaz de ter raz=E3o... No caso desse, o meu bom-senso lev= ar-me-ia a coloc=E1-lo na prateleira do "inaceit=E1vel". Porqu=EA? Porque n=E3o s= e trata de uma *alternativa* ao software j=E1 dispon=EDvel pelo utilizador. De facto, ao procurar uma express=E3o para definir o tipo de software que= imagino incluir no CD, a primeira que surge =E9 "software livre", mas a que melho= r descreve a inten=E7=E3o da coisa =E9 "software alternativo". Alternativo= a qu=EA?=20 Alternativo ao que os utilizadores de Windows costumam ter =E0 m=E3o. =C9= desta ideia de "alternativa" que decorre a minha rejei=E7=E3o do IE -- e n=E3o = de nenhuma considera=E7=E3o estrita sobre a liberdade das licen=E7as associadas. De facto, a atitude =E9 de guerrilha, e o inimigo est=E1 bem identificado= : =C9 aquela coisa com uma quota de mercado brutal=EDtica e asfixiante! > > 2- > > 3- > > 4- > > 5- >=20 > Sim. >=20 > > O projecto como o descrevi =E9 auto-suficiente, mas podem ser-lhe acr= escentadas > > diversas melhorias. Por exemplo, seria interessante ter o patroc=EDn= io dum > > jornal ou revista para divulga=E7=E3o do CD. >=20 > Se as coisas continuarem a evoluir como est=E3o n=E3o tarda temos a deb= ian > no p=FAblico. :-) >=20 > Com jeitinho isso deve-se conseguir. Sim. Pelo menos a caixa m=E1gica deve ser f=E1cil, na sequ=EAncia do art= igo... J=E1 deve dar quase para ir ao Di=E1rio de Not=EDcias perguntar se se querem a= ntecipar ao P=FAblico, e depois ir ao P=FAblico dizer que =E9 melhor que se apress= em e que d=EAem mais promo=E7=E3o, etc.! :^) > > A minha principal preocupa=E7=E3o =E9 com a seguran=E7a e a responsab= ilidade: Se > > algu=E9m tiver problemas com o seu sistema por meter nele software do= CD, de quem > > =E9 a responsabilidade? Conv=E9m que este g=E9nero de quest=F5es sej= a muito bem > > esclarecido! >=20 > Um disclaimerzinho faz as del=EDcias. Sim, deve bastar. Afinal =E9 o que as empresas vendedoras de software us= am! N=E3o pode =E9 ser esquecido... Sebrosa From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Tue Apr 30 04:54:01 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Tue Apr 30 03:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> Message-ID: <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> Vasco Figueira wrote: > > Como disse o jmce, "mais livre que" o proprietário, mas suficientemente > livre para poder ser distribuído, e ser distribuído pela ANSOL. Acho que se o Software não for realmente livre, o nome da ANSOL deve ficar de fora. Joao http://www.nonio.com From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 05:54:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 04:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> Message-ID: <3CCE148B.14D50D5C@artenumerica.com> Joao M=E1rio Miranda wrote: >=20 > Vasco Figueira wrote: > > > > Como disse o jmce, "mais livre que" o propriet=E1rio, mas suficientem= ente > > livre para poder ser distribu=EDdo, e ser distribu=EDdo pela ANSOL. >=20 > Acho que se o Software n=E3o for realmente livre, o nome da ANSOL > deve ficar de fora. Sim e n=E3o. Concordo que seria bizarro a ANSOL ser distribuidora de software que viol= a o que a ANSOL diz defender no primeiro artigo dos estatutos! Mas n=E3o ser= =E1 chocante que a ANSOL seja um dos participantes numa edi=E7=E3o que, preci= samente, inclui muito do que a ANSOL diz defender nesse mesmo artigo. Pelo contr=E1= rio, como l=E1 estar=E1 muito do software livre mais importante para os utiliz= adores, estranho seria se a ANSOL se auto-excluisse... Ou seja, concordo que =E9 impens=E1vel o CD ser feito *pela* ANSOL, mas n=E3o concordo que seja imp= ens=E1vel ele ser feito *com participa=E7=E3o da* ANSOL. Se f=F4r caso disso, deve= ser poss=EDvel acrescentar a participa=E7=E3o de mais pessoas colectivas. Po= rreiro mesmo era que uma dessas pessoas colectivas fosse um jornal de grande tiragem. Julgo que um projecto desta natureza se enquadra nas actividades constant= es do Artigo Quarto dos estatutos da ANSOL, nomeadamente os pontos a., g. e i.,= sem prejudicar em *nada* os objectivos gerais da ANSOL: Os pontos do artigo quarto que referi s=E3o estes: a.Contribuir para a produ=E7=E3o e divulga=E7=E3o de conhecimento no dom=ED= nio da Inform=E1tica Livre. [Confere: A ideia =E9 exactamente a de divulgar Inform=E1tica (mais que = software) Livre. A presen=E7a, no mesmo CD, de software n=E3o conforme as 4 liberd= ades, tem obviamente que ser justificada, mas n=E3o representa por si s=F3 uma viol= a=E7=E3o dos princ=EDpios da ANSOL. A justifica=E7=E3o dessa presen=E7a =E9, precisam= ente, a de tornar o CD mais atractivo e permitir que ele chegue a mais gente -- leva= ndo com ele muito software conforme as 4 liberdades!] g.Promover e patrocinar a edi=E7=E3o de publica=E7=F5es conforme aos obje= ctivos da Associa=E7=E3o e que contribuam para um melhor esclarecimento p=FAblico s= obre as implica=E7=F5es e relev=E2ncia da Inform=E1tica Livre. [Confere: Uma parte essencial do CD =E9 documenta=E7=E3o que nos interes= sa. Nesta prespectiva, o software n=E3o conforme as 4 liberdades eventualmente incl= u=EDdo serve como "isco" adicional para aumentar o n=FAmero de potenciais leitor= es da documenta=E7=E3o.] i.Promover a utiliza=E7=E3o de normas, protocolos, interfaces e formatos = de ficheiros n=E3o-propriet=E1rios, livres e abertos. [Por lapso n=E3o referi antes os formatos livres, mas eles devem ser um c= rit=E9rio fundamental presente na escolha do software a incluir (de facto s=E3o um = crit=E9rio de *qualidade* objectiva, pelo que influem inevitavelmente na selec=E7=E3= o), portanto tamb=E9m este ponto confere: Os formatos livres estar=E3o a ser promovidos.] Sebrosa From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 05:57:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Tue Apr 30 04:57:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta =?iso-8859-1?Q?d?= =?iso-8859-1?B?ZSBjcmlh5+Nv?= de Grupode Trabalho In-Reply-To: <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> Message-ID: <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> * Joao Mário Miranda [2002-04-30 03:46 +0000]: > Acho que se o Software não for realmente livre, o nome da ANSOL > deve ficar de fora. E não é "apenas" pelo problema imediato da contradição com princípios e finalidades da associação. Há também a questão da complexidade das licenças para investigar e gerir (infligindo a nós próprios e aos "clientes" finais precisamente alguns problemas que se pretende evitar com software livre; quando se começa a lidar com os pormenores percebe-se que "liberdade" e falta dela não são aqui ideias poéticas e distantes mas dizem respeito a questões muito concretas). Só com software livre fica tudo muito mais simples. O leitor do jornal pergunta "mas posso mesmo copiar isto tudo, dar e vender, e mexer por dentro?" e a resposta é (tanto quanto for possível resumir) SIM em vez de "sim, se for nisto, assim-assim se for naquilo, ..." e uma página cheia de copyrights com licenças variadas à frente ainda mais complicada que num pacote de software "tradicional". Manter a mensagem simples ajuda o marketing, talvez mais do que tentar tornar o pacote mais abrangente à custa de enxertos não-livres e EULAs variados no écran do utilizador de Windows. E suponho que shareware ou demoware já muito pessoal vai recebendo em CDs vindos em revistas. Mesmo que não tivéssemos problemas de consciência, teríamos no final problemas de imagem. "Então eles andam para aí a falar de software livre mas para lançar um CD ajudaram a fazer marketing de software proprietário da empresa X e da empresa Y etc etc etc, e puseram software "aleijado" no CD etc etc etc". Podíamos tentar explicar publicamente o que o Sebrosa explicou sobre ajudar a mudar gradualmente conduzindo o utilizador para alternativas, mas se pudermos evitar essa batata quente melhor. Já temos demasiado para fazer e pouco tempo para o fazer. Isto não invalida que a estratégia seja seguida a título pessoal. Já há muitos anos que conduzo amigos para "alternativas", seja por interesse técnico de outro software seja pelas questões de licença, e mesmo que o ganho "estratégico" em termos de licença seja parcial. Mas o que é apropriado para o nível informal, onde se avalia cada caso concreto de uma vez, não é necessariamente apropriado ao nível formal e oficial da ANSOL. TTFN JM From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 06:48:02 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 05:48:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> J M Cerqueira Esteves wrote: >=20 > * Joao M=E1rio Miranda [2002-04-30 03:46 +00= 00]: > > Acho que se o Software n=E3o for realmente livre, o nome da ANSOL > > deve ficar de fora. >=20 > E n=E3o =E9 "apenas" pelo problema imediato da contradi=E7=E3o com prin= c=EDpios e > finalidades da associa=E7=E3o. H=E1 tamb=E9m a quest=E3o da complexida= de das > licen=E7as para investigar e gerir (infligindo a n=F3s pr=F3prios e aos > "clientes" finais precisamente alguns problemas que se pretende evitar = com > software livre; quando se come=E7a a lidar com os pormenores percebe-se > que "liberdade" e falta dela n=E3o s=E3o aqui ideias po=E9ticas e > distantes mas dizem respeito a quest=F5es muito concretas). >=20 > S=F3 com software livre fica tudo muito mais simples. O leitor do > jornal pergunta "mas posso mesmo copiar isto tudo, dar e vender, e > mexer por dentro?" e a resposta =E9 (tanto quanto for poss=EDvel resumi= r) > SIM em vez de "sim, se for nisto, assim-assim se for naquilo, ..." e > uma p=E1gina cheia de copyrights com licen=E7as variadas =E0 frente ain= da > mais complicada que num pacote de software "tradicional". Manter a > mensagem simples ajuda o marketing, talvez mais do que tentar tornar o > pacote mais abrangente =E0 custa de enxertos n=E3o-livres e EULAs varia= dos > no =E9cran do utilizador de Windows. E suponho que shareware ou demowa= re j=E1 > muito pessoal vai recebendo em CDs vindos em revistas. Concordo com o que dizes em geral, mas se calhar explico melhor a minha i= deia "menos restritiva quanto =E0s licen=E7as" com um exemplo: Sup=F5e que uma das alternativas =E9 um programa que n=E3o respeita a qua= rta liberdade: d.A liberdade de melhorar o programa e de tornar as modifica=E7=F5es p=FA= blicas, em benef=EDcio de toda a comunidade. Ser=E1 que esta viola=E7=E3o =E9 importante no nosso caso concreto? Nota= que o destinat=E1rio do CD =E9 um utilizador que n=E3o quer saber de fazer modi= fica=E7=F5es ao programa para nada, portanto ele n=E3o perde nada por n=E3o ter essa libe= rdade (que n=E3o usaria mesmo que tivesse). Outro: Sup=F5e que o programa =E9 apenas distribu=EDdo em bin=E1rio e n=E3= o respeita a segunda liberdade: b.A liberdade de estudar o funcionamento do programa e de o adaptar a nov= os problemas. Neste caso =E9 necess=E1rio ponderar o risco de meter no sistema c=F3digo desconhecido e que ningu=E9m pode inspeccionar, mas n=E3o me choca que ex= istam casos concretos em que essa op=E7=E3o, depois de ponderados os riscos, ac= abe por ser considerada v=E1lida. Na minha esquematiza=E7=E3o dos objectivos e das prioridades, aquilo que = desejei que ficasse claro foi que o objectivo central =E9 dar =E0s pessoas algo d= e =FAtil, que possam copiar e dar aos amigos livremente, que possa competir com aqu= ilo a que as pessoas j=E1 t=EAm acesso e que sirva de ve=EDculo =E0 nossa mensa= gem.=20 Certamente que n=E3o haver=E1 possibilidade de fazer invent=E1rios exaust= ivos, pois o tempo =E9 limitado. Mas, at=E9 por isso mesmo, n=E3o faz sentido nenhum = eliminar =E0 partida software interessante apenas porque n=E3o respeita estritamente a= s quatro liberdades. Tendo presentes os objectivos da coisa, confio no bom-senso dos participa= ntes para fazer as melhores escolhas de entre as que tiverem dispon=EDveis. C= onfio no bom-senso das pessoas o suficiente para n=E3o achar necess=E1rio (nem des= ej=E1vel) imp=F4r-lhes normas restritivas de car=E1cter absoluto, do tipo "aqui s=F3= entra software com a licen=E7a X". As pessoas s=E3o inteligentes e, caso a caso, ter=E3o capacidade de decid= ir se aquele programa em concreto merece ou n=E3o ser inclu=EDdo. > Mesmo que n=E3o tiv=E9ssemos problemas de consci=EAncia, ter=EDamos no = final > problemas de imagem. "Ent=E3o eles andam para a=ED a falar de software > livre mas para lan=E7ar um CD ajudaram a fazer marketing de software > propriet=E1rio da empresa X e da empresa Y etc etc etc, e puseram > software "aleijado" no CD etc etc etc". Repara, estou-me positivamente nas tintas para se o CD inclui ou n=E3o so= ftware de empresas. Os objectivos do CD s=E3o claros para mim, e se esses objec= tivos s=E3o melhor conseguidos incluindo nele software de empresas, n=E3o hesit= o um segundo. Tenho a consci=EAncia tranquila, pois n=E3o estou a soldo de ne= nhuma empresa para fazer a promo=E7=E3o do seu software, e acho que se passa o = mesmo com todos n=F3s. Se o software for incluido no CD, s=EA-lo-=E1 por ter valor. E se tiver valor, n=E3o deve ser exclu=EDdo s=F3 por ser duma empresa!! > Pod=EDamos tentar explicar > publicamente o que o Sebrosa explicou sobre ajudar a mudar > gradualmente conduzindo o utilizador para alternativas, mas se > pudermos evitar essa batata quente melhor. J=E1 temos demasiado para > fazer e pouco tempo para o fazer. A ideia n=E3o =E9 ter que explicar isso publicamente. Ningu=E9m quer met= er o pesco=E7o nesse cepo... :^) > Isto n=E3o invalida que a estrat=E9gia seja seguida a t=EDtulo pessoal.= J=E1 > h=E1 muitos anos que conduzo amigos para "alternativas", seja por > interesse t=E9cnico de outro software seja pelas quest=F5es de licen=E7= a, e > mesmo que o ganho "estrat=E9gico" em termos de licen=E7a seja parcial. > Mas o que =E9 apropriado para o n=EDvel informal, onde se avalia cada > caso concreto de uma vez, n=E3o =E9 necessariamente apropriado ao n=EDv= el > formal e oficial da ANSOL. Sim. E repara que, na formula=E7=E3o que fiz do projecto, a ANSOL pode s= er completamente dispensada de uma participa=E7=E3o formal. O pr=F3prio gru= po de trabalho pode ser inteiramente informal. A distribui=E7=E3o do CD previs= ta =E9 quase boca-a-boca! A participa=E7=E3o da ANSOL pode ser t=E9nue a ponto de se = limitar a aconselhamento (por exemplo, aconselhamento relativo =E0s licen=E7as a ev= itar, seus problemas, etc.). No entanto parecer-me-=E1 paradoxal se a ANSOL se revelar incapaz de cola= borar formalmente num projecto desta natureza s=F3 por ele n=E3o se limitar a c= onter software livre. Repara que digo "colaborar" e n=E3o "fazer". N=E3o =E9 = preciso que a ANSOL *fa=E7a*, mas =E9 importante que *colabore*. Para dar um exemplo= c=F3mico, faz todo o sentido que a Coca-cola colabore numa barraca de cachorros-que= ntes (a Coca-cola entra com as bebidas), mas n=E3o faz sentido que a Coca-cola= fa=E7a a barraca toda (pois a Coca-cola n=E3o tem nada a ver com p=E3o nem com sal= sichas).=20 E n=E3o h=E1 d=FAvida que =E9 bom para a Coca-cola participar na barraca,= pois promove o que lhe interessa: As suas bebidas. Dizendo ainda doutra forma: O resultado da participa=E7=E3o da ANSOL no = projecto (em qualquer projecto) deve ser uma *melhoria* da qualidade do produto fi= nal, e n=E3o uma *perda* de qualidade. Estaremos muito mal se o resultado da participa=E7=E3o da ANSOL em projectos f=F4r a perda de qualidade desses = projectos!!! Sebrosa From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 07:14:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Tue Apr 30 06:14:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta =?iso-8859-1?Q?d?= =?iso-8859-1?B?ZSBjcmlh5+Nv?= de Grupode Trabalho In-Reply-To: <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020430050840.GX4913@artenumerica.com> * Jose' Sebrosa [2002-04-30 05:43 +0000]: > E se tiver valor, não deve ser excluído só por ser duma empresa!! A exclusão não seria por "ser de uma empresa". Talvez tenha ficado pouco claro. É comum quando é proprietário ser de uma e estava a referir-me ao que é natural virem dizer nesse caso: "meteram este software que até é não livre, se calhar para promover a empresa X ou Y apesar de ir contra o que dizem". Mas, do ponto de vista da exclusão, ser de uma empresa ou não é um assunto irrelevante. Mal estaríamos se tirássemos, mesmo do main da Debian, todo o software com algum vestígio de ter tido contributos importantes de empresas... O que interessa é a licença. > A ideia não é ter que explicar isso publicamente. Ninguém quer meter o pescoço > nesse cepo... :^) Se a coisa viesse da ANSOL a alternativa seria meter a cabeça na areia... Já se a iniciativa vier de fora e a ANSOL contribuir claramente apenas o que é software livre (possibilidade de que falaste noutra mensagem), a situação poderá ser diferente. Mas acho que mais interesse teria um CD só com software livre (e o tal "SIM" simples), e que oportunidades para contribuições secundárias em colecções de softare alheias, mesmo que possam/devam ser aproveitadas em alguns casos, teriam menos impacto. From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Tue Apr 30 13:25:02 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue Apr 30 12:25:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DProposta_de_cria=E7=E3o_de_Grupo_de_Trab?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?alho?= In-Reply-To: <3CCDEEBB.6E960DFC@artenumerica.com>; from sebrosa@artenumerica.com on Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:09:15AM +0100 References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <20020429191659.GV4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCDEEBB.6E960DFC@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020430122214.A17027@nsk.yi.org> On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:09:15AM +0100, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > O que =E9 importante =E9 que o *utilizador* fique *bem servido*. Isto =E9 a ANSOL, n=E3o uma institui=E7=E3o de caridade social para com o= s oprimidos por software Microsoft. --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org "There are three kinds of people: men, women, and unix." From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Tue Apr 30 15:21:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue Apr 30 14:21:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DProposta_de_cria=E7=E3o_de_Grupode_Traba?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lho?= In-Reply-To: <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com>; from sebrosa@artenumerica.com on Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 05:43:54AM +0100 References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020430141804.B17027@nsk.yi.org> On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 05:43:54AM +0100, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > No entanto parecer-me-=E1 paradoxal se a ANSOL se revelar incapaz de co= laborar > formalmente num projecto desta natureza s=F3 por ele n=E3o se limitar a= conter > software livre. Repara que digo "colaborar" e n=E3o "fazer". N=E3o =E9= preciso que > a ANSOL *fa=E7a*, mas =E9 importante que *colabore*. Para dar um exemp= lo c=F3mico, > faz todo o sentido que a Coca-cola colabore numa barraca de cachorros-q= uentes > (a Coca-cola entra com as bebidas), mas n=E3o faz sentido que a Coca-co= la fa=E7a a > barraca toda (pois a Coca-cola n=E3o tem nada a ver com p=E3o nem com s= alsichas).=20 > E n=E3o h=E1 d=FAvida que =E9 bom para a Coca-cola participar na barrac= a, pois promove > o que lhe interessa: As suas bebidas. Uma analogia mais correcta seria n=E3o a participa=E7=E3o da coca-cola nu= ma barraca de cachorros-quentes, mas a participa=E7=E3o da coca-cola numa ba= rraca da pepsi-cola. =C9 preciso n=E3o esquecer que software propriet=E1rio entra em conflito = com software livre. =C9 preciso n=E3o esquecer que por apenas se considerar a= s capacidades t=E9cnicas no ponto de vista do utilizador (e =E9s tu capaz d= e considerar o ponto de vista de todos os utilizadores para decidires por ele?), e assim preferir software propriet=E1rio (ou mais especificamente = um que n=E3o respeite todas as 4 liberdades, em oposi=E7=E3o a n=E3o ser GPL= ) sobre um outro software livre, que se encontra em profundo desenvolvimento por parte de volunt=E1rios, ir=E1 contra o esp=EDrito da ANSOL, e ser=E1 uma contribui=E7=E3o para o movimento contr=E1rio. > Estaremos muito mal se o resultado da participa=E7=E3o da ANSOL em proj= ectos > f=F4r a perda de qualidade desses projectos!!! Define qualidade. Cumps Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org "There are three kinds of people: men, women, and unix." From strange arroba nsk.yi.org Tue Apr 30 15:45:01 2002 From: strange arroba nsk.yi.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Tue Apr 30 14:45:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5BANSOL-geral=5DProposta_de_cria=E7=E3o_de_Grupo_de_Trab?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?alho?= In-Reply-To: <3CCDEEBC.17A33C04@artenumerica.com>; from sebrosa@artenumerica.com on Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:09:16AM +0100 References: <200204292003.VAA17900@spf.pt> <3CCDEEBC.17A33C04@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <20020430144212.C17027@nsk.yi.org> On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 02:09:16AM +0100, Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > Estritamente, tens raz=E3o. No entanto, para o prop=F3sito espec=EDfic= o deste > projecto, as liberdades realmente necess=E1rias s=E3o a terceira das qu= atro > (liberdade de distribui=E7=E3o), mais uma que n=E3o est=E1 nas quatro: = liberdade de > distribui=E7=E3o *gratuita*. Free as in beer, then? > Nota que o prop=F3sito espec=EDfico deste projecto =E9 o de colocar "n=E3= o baptizados" > em contacto com a "f=E9". Bem, se =E0 partida damos prioridade a software propriet=E1rio se este fo= r tecnicamente melhor que o livre, que "f=E9" andamos a proclamar? > At=E9 os mission=E1rios cat=F3licos dos descobrimentos > (=E9poca supostamente muito mais intolerante do que a nossa), ao chegar= a > terras de gente n=E3o crist=E3, foram suficientemente s=E1bios para per= mitir a > manuten=E7=E3o de h=E1bitos culturais "=EDmpios". A coisa avan=E7a aos= poucos. Assim como o imperador Constantino auto-proclamou-se o representante de Deus na Terra, e misturou a religi=E3o crist=E3 com a romana. S=F3 que a = estes n=E3o se chamam "s=E1bios", mas ap=F3statas. E o objectivo n=E3o era leva= r as pessoas =E0 verdadeira "f=E9", ou =E0 verdade, mas ao controlo dessas pes= soas, e permitir-lhes continuarem com a sua antiga f=E9 dissimulada da primeira. S=F3 que a ANSOL n=E3o =E9 uma religi=E3o e os seus objectivos encontram-= se bem definidos. Que tratam da promo=E7=E3o de software livre, n=E3o da anti-pr= omo=E7=E3o de software microsoftiano. Contudo n=E3o acho que um cd como o que falas v=E1 contra o esp=EDrito da= ANSOL sse a ANSOL for apenas respons=E1vel pela parte de software livre; esse software livre estiver claramente separado do restante software; e que a ANSOL tenha toda a liberdade para colocar que software quiser, incluindo software com os mesmos objectivos de outro software n=E3o-livre tamb=E9m pertencente ao cd, desconsiderando a capacidade t=E9cnica de cada um. Cumprimentos, Luciano Rocha --=20 Luciano Rocha, strange@nsk.yi.org "There are three kinds of people: men, women, and unix." From lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com Tue Apr 30 16:33:01 2002 From: lopo.almeida arroba sitaar.com (Lopo de Almeida) Date: Tue Apr 30 15:33:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral] Proposta de criação de Grupo de Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> <20020430050840.GX4913@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <011501c1f053$0ed868e0$fb2081d9@netvisao.pt> Viva pessoal, Concordo com a criação de um projecto deste género. Algumas considerações muito limitadas porque tenho de sair já. 1. Se fôr só de Software Livre deve ser produzido pela ANSOL 2. Se tiver Software não-Livre pode ser produzido com a colaboração da ANSOL 3. Deveria ser criada uma lista para se discutir este assunto a fundo e para se começar a catalogar os programas existentes. Para evitar "molhaços" cada Grupo de Trabalho deveria estar dividido. É só uma opinião ;-) 1, Lopo From sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 18:38:01 2002 From: sebrosa arroba artenumerica.com (Jose' Sebrosa) Date: Tue Apr 30 17:38:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> <20020430141804.B17027@nsk.yi.org> Message-ID: <3CCEC782.74AEDA95@artenumerica.com> Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: >=20 > > Estaremos muito mal se o resultado da participa=E7=E3o da ANSOL em pr= ojectos > > f=F4r a perda de qualidade desses projectos!!! >=20 > Define qualidade. N=E3o sou eu quem a define. =C9 o "cliente", ou seja, o utilizador. Se = o utilizador tiver =E0 frente um produto que n=E3o lhe serve, ou que ele co= mpara desfavoravelmente com outro a que tem acesso, a (falta de) qualidade esta= r=E1 definida. =C9 isto que =E9 preciso entender. Sebrosa From jmce arroba artenumerica.com Tue Apr 30 18:54:01 2002 From: jmce arroba artenumerica.com (J M Cerqueira Esteves) Date: Tue Apr 30 17:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]FSF-Europe: =?iso-8859-1?Q?recomenda=E7=E3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?o?= Message-ID: <20020430164821.GC4913@artenumerica.com> Um amigo (thanks, LNG) chamou-me a atenção para o abaixo. Há alguma tradução em curso / resumo / desenvolvimento? Talvez alguém esteja mais preparado que eu para pelo menos submeter uma notícia sobre o assunto para o Gildot... Cumprimentos JM ----- Forwarded message from "L. Nobre G." ----- Provavelmente já sabias disto mas como saiu hoje... http://fsfeurope.org/documents/fp6/ Trata-se da "Proposal for a Decision concerning the rules for the participation of undertakings, research centres and universities and for the dissemination of research results for the implementation of the European Community framework programme 2002--2006" From rms arroba 1407.org Tue Apr 30 19:11:01 2002 From: rms arroba 1407.org (Rui Miguel Silva Seabra) Date: Tue Apr 30 18:11:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]FSF-Europe: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?recomenda=E7=E3o?= In-Reply-To: <20020430164821.GC4913@artenumerica.com> References: <20020430164821.GC4913@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <1020186260.22099.63.camel@roque> --=-drGn+UHrYmUQ66esL7zy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Viva, Eu estou a fazer uma tradu=E7=E3o desse documento baseda numa vers=E3o txt dele. Hugs, rms On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 17:48, J M Cerqueira Esteves wrote: > Um amigo (thanks, LNG) chamou-me a aten=E7=E3o para o abaixo. H=E1 algum= a > tradu=E7=E3o em curso / resumo / desenvolvimento? Talvez algu=E9m esteja > mais preparado que eu para pelo menos submeter uma not=EDcia sobre o assu= nto > para o Gildot... >=20 > Cumprimentos > JM >=20 > ----- Forwarded message from "L. Nobre G." ---= -- > Provavelmente j=E1 sabias disto=20 > mas como saiu hoje... > http://fsfeurope.org/documents/fp6/ >=20 > Trata-se da > "Proposal for a Decision concerning the rules for the participation=20 > of undertakings, research centres and universities and for the > dissemination of research results for the implementation of the European > Community framework programme 2002--2006" >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral --=20 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Ghandi + So let's do it...? --=-drGn+UHrYmUQ66esL7zy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8zs6Uo+C50no0+t4RAi88AJ4wIX2844fTCUwijQPUlDuMi39zXACcDYuP LeObqVM3jmuoQ9Dqk0KY8GA= =4aih -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-drGn+UHrYmUQ66esL7zy-- From jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com Tue Apr 30 21:50:02 2002 From: jmiranda arroba explicacoes.com (Joao =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E1rio?= Miranda) Date: Tue Apr 30 20:50:02 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Re: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de =?iso-8859-1?Q?cria=E7=E3o?= de Grupode Trabalho References: <3CCD976D.4DFBD50@artenumerica.com> <1020131628.3463.35.camel@jung> <3CCE0572.7C157387@explicacoes.com> <20020430035126.GW4913@artenumerica.com> <3CCE210A.E07DB519@artenumerica.com> <20020430141804.B17027@nsk.yi.org> <3CCEC782.74AEDA95@artenumerica.com> Message-ID: <3CCEF3FC.94B48C19@explicacoes.com> A ideia que o José Sebrosa propôs à lista está a ser discutida no SlashDot e tem página própria: Apresentação da ideia: http://theopencd.org/project.html webforum: http://theopencd.org/forum/ mailing list: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opencd-devel Joao http://www.nonio.com Jose' Sebrosa wrote: > > Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > > > > > Estaremos muito mal se o resultado da participação da ANSOL em projectos > > > fôr a perda de qualidade desses projectos!!! > > > > Define qualidade. > > Não sou eu quem a define. É o "cliente", ou seja, o utilizador. Se o > utilizador tiver à frente um produto que não lhe serve, ou que ele compara > desfavoravelmente com outro a que tem acesso, a (falta de) qualidade estará > definida. > > É isto que é preciso entender. > > Sebrosa > > _______________________________________________ > Ansol-geral mailing list > Ansol-geral@listas.ansol.org > http://listas.ansol.org/mailman/listinfo/ansol-geral From Diogo Santos Tue Apr 30 22:54:01 2002 From: Diogo Santos (Diogo Santos) Date: Tue Apr 30 21:54:01 2002 Subject: [ANSOL-geral]Proposta de criação de Grupo de Trabalho Message-ID: Como já se disse muito, vou comentar uma serie de mails, mas não todos. José Sebrosa: «O objectivo *não é* divulgar software que respeite as 4 liberdades.» Mas esse é um dos objectivos da ANSOL. «Se a ANSOL fizer um CD cegamente restrito às 4 liberdades e "eu" (um gajo qualquer) ao lado fizer um CD em que algum software é substituído por outro *melhor*, e se um utilizador tiver possibilidade de escolher entre eles, o que é que ele escolhe? Escolhe o "meu", claro!» Não sei se depois de lhe esplicares correctamente o que é Software Livre, a escolha setria essa. Mas mesmo assim penso que o software que não respeite as 4 liberdades, é software proprietário. E a nossa associação limita-se ao Software Livre. «Nota que o propósito específico deste projecto é o de colocar "não baptizados" em contacto com a "fé"» O problema situa-se em que não mostrar a totalidade da "fé", tem se demonstrado pelo menos na minha perspectiva, o principal problema na sua divulgação, pois normalmente gera duvidas que são colmatadas por mitos, como por exemplo o de não se poder fazer dinheiro com a GPL, e a perda de direitos de autor e não ser necessário disponíbilizar o codigo porque a maioria não o examinaria ou modificaria. Vasco Figueira: «Tens toda a razão, mas por outro lado, se apenas conseguimos competir com eles quando prescindimos de algumas liberdades, estamos mal.» Concordo por isso sou a favor da não cedência. «Quanto aos que são livres, mas não conseguem competir decentemente com os seus pares, bom... não os colocamos lá. Assim não corremos o risco de desinteressar o "cliente".» Boa solução, mas penso que não vamos ter esse problema. Joao Mário Miranda: «Acho que se o Software não for realmente livre, o nome da ANSOL deve ficar de fora.» José Sebrosa: «Concordo que seria bizarro a ANSOL ser distribuidora de software que viola o que a ANSOL diz defender no primeiro artigo dos estatutos! Mas não será chocante que a ANSOL seja um dos participantes numa edição que, precisamente, inclui muito do que a ANSOL diz defender nesse mesmo artigo. Pelo contrário, como lá estará muito do software livre mais importante para os utilizadores, estranho seria se a ANSOL se auto-excluisse... Ou seja, concordo que é impensável o CD ser feito *pela* ANSOL, mas não concordo que seja impensável ele ser feito *com participação da* ANSOL. Se fôr caso disso, deve ser possível acrescentar a participação de mais pessoas colectivas. Porreiro mesmo era que uma dessas pessoas colectivas fosse um jornal de grande tiragem.» No caso de o CD não ter só (mas tambem) Software Livre a ANSOL poderia (na minha opnião) no minimo ponderar com muita seriedade a sua colaboração, desde que a ANSOL pudesse diferenciar em cada CD de uma forma obvia e objectiva, qual o software que é Livre e qual não o é, já agora a inclusão de uma defenição de Software Livre tambem deveria ser incluida algures na documentação do CD (este ponto seria negociavel). J M Cerqueira Esteves: «quando se começa a lidar com os pormenores percebe-se que "liberdade" e falta dela não são aqui ideias poéticas e distantes mas dizem respeito a questões muito concretas).» Nem mais. «Mesmo que não tivéssemos problemas de consciência, teríamos no final problemas de imagem. "Então eles andam para aí a falar de software livre mas para lançar um CD ajudaram a fazer marketing de software proprietário da empresa X e da empresa Y etc etc etc, e puseram software "aleijado" no CD etc etc etc". Podíamos tentar explicar publicamente o que o Sebrosa explicou sobre ajudar a mudar gradualmente conduzindo o utilizador para alternativas, mas se pudermos evitar essa batata quente melhor. Já temos demasiado para fazer e pouco tempo para o fazer.» Temos de manter a nossa imagem limpa visto que não podemos intimidar os nossos contactos politicos. Alem disso não é facil limpar publicamente uma imagem. José Sebrosa «Supõe que uma das alternativas é um programa que não respeita a quarta liberdade: d.A liberdade de melhorar o programa e de tornar as modificações públicas, em benefício de toda a comunidade. Será que esta violação é importante no nosso caso concreto? Nota que o destinatário do CD é um utilizador que não quer saber de fazer modificações ao programa para nada, portanto ele não perde nada por não ter essa liberdade (que não usaria mesmo que tivesse). Outro: Supõe que o programa é apenas distribuído em binário e não respeita a segunda liberdade: b.A liberdade de estudar o funcionamento do programa e de o adaptar a novos problemas. Neste caso é necessário ponderar o risco de meter no sistema código desconhecido e que ninguém pode inspeccionar, mas não me choca que existam casos concretos em que essa opção, depois de ponderados os riscos, acabe por ser considerada válida.» Esses argumentos, já os tenho ouvido da boca de representates da Microsoft. O que tú tás a dizer é que algumas dessas liberdades são mais importantes do que as outras. Bem vai acontecer é que pessoas podem não concordar com essas tuas preferências em relação às liberdades e preferir outras, ou mesmo não querer escolher qual a liberdade que não deve ser utilizada. Isto alem de no meu parecer ir contra o espirito do Software Livre (ter pelo menos aquelas quatro liberdades), como a discussão à volta de tal assunto por cada pacote, far-nos ia perder tempo e paciência, por isso concordo com quem disse que incluir só Software Livre é melhor não só do ponto de vista filosofico como tambem do ponto de vista tecnico (porque as licenças são melhores). «Confio no bom-senso das pessoas o suficiente para não achar necessário (nem desejável) impôr-lhes normas restritivas de carácter absoluto, do tipo "aqui só entra software com a licença X".» As liberdades não são obrigações, alem disso quem deve escolher a utilização ou não das liberdades deve ser o utilizador e não o fornecedor. É uma questão de principio. «As pessoas são inteligentes e, caso a caso, terão capacidade de decidir se aquele programa em concreto merece ou não ser incluído.» Pois são mas nem sempre a utilizam, por exemplo a maioria das pessoas que compra software não lê as licensas. «A ideia não é ter que explicar isso publicamente. Ninguém quer meter o pescoço nesse cepo... :^)» Na nossa sociedade actual quem cala consente, a nossa imagem não nos deixava fazer isso, mesmo que tenhamos toda a razão do mundo. «No entanto parecer-me-á paradoxal se a ANSOL se revelar incapaz de colaborar formalmente num projecto desta natureza só por ele não se limitar a conter software livre. Repara que digo "colaborar" e não "fazer".» No caso da inclusão de uma quantidade aceitável de Software Livre a ANSOL poderia colaborar (penso eu). «faz todo o sentido que a Coca-cola colabore numa barraca de cachorros-quentes (a Coca-cola entra com as bebidas), mas não faz sentido que a Coca-cola faça a barraca toda (pois a Coca-cola não tem nada a ver com pão nem com salsichas). E não há dúvida que é bom para a Coca-cola participar na barraca, pois promove o que lhe interessa: As suas bebidas.» Isto é muito evidente para quem sabe o que é o Software Livre, a maioria das pessoas não sabe e piór ainda têm dificuldade em perceber o conceito (dai inclusivé a "luta" Open source vs Software Livre). Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha: «Isto é a ANSOL, não uma instituição de caridade social para com os oprimidos por software Microsoft.» Pois claro que não é. Mas um dos objectivos da associação é divulgar o Software Livre, como quer gostemos ou não a esmagadora maioria usa Microsoft Windows, temos de atacar essa fatia de mercado, até porque costuma ser essa fatia de mercado a mais desinformada. Espero que desta vês não me engane e que a mensagem chegue à lista. Já agora obrigado José Sebrosa por teres incluido o meu mail na totalidade. Fiquem bem! -- Crie o seu email gratuito no mail.pt http://www.mail.pt